Limited equipment rules

[EaZeNuTZ33]

I agree with keeping common criteria for divisions. A local club requires .40 or larger for HTO, even though there is no stated power factor requirement or capacity limitation. When I told them that they are essentially forcing anyone who shoots 9mm to shoot Tac/Limited or buy another pistol, they didn't care because 9mm wasn't "heavy enough" even though almost all other matches across the country disagree. They have not had more than 2-3 people shoot the division since they started it, and now none.

I personally like the longer tubes on shotguns being allowed. Limiting the length of the tube heavily favors certain loading techniques, and since I prefer to quad load, having a longer tube with a little wiggle room better allows me to use that technique and have a little more freedom with my stage plans. Besides, the pistol is only limited in mag length which may have you shooting from 19-24 rds per mags, rifle has no mag length restrictions at most matches, why should shotgun?

[Sterling White]

Mark, I really am going to make that cat carrier for you! Having shot on the east & west coasts and many parts between over the past 15 years I can honestly say that the numbers are steadily increasing - 3g is booming. As well as the USPSA and IDPA mission count. Action shooting is interesting and getting a lot of publicity.

Edited October 28, 2014 by Sterling White

[MarkCO]

Yes, all action shooting is growing, but TO is not "booming" in comparison to other divisions. Sorry, I was a bit unclear. Too much time with the wife I guess.

[StealthyBlagga]

If you want a new division to really shake things up, how about doing it like IPSC: You can do anything you want to your guns, so long as they fit in the box with magazine inserted (all mags must comply of course). Have a box for rifle, a box for shotgun and a box for pistol. Would solve all the mag capacity enforcement problems, and still force folks to run "practical" guns.

Edited October 30, 2014 by StealthyBlagga

[Jadeslade]

Since I had eye surgery and can actually see sights again, I'm going to shoot limited for a bunch of matches next year, always like iron sights. Yes, go back to the 8+1 for Limited shotgun. I'm set up for TacScope at 12+1, but it is an offshore fishing rod. Maybe design more stages with ports and tight turns to make 8+1 shotguns (true8+1,not plugged) a better option. Like Steve McQueen in The Getaway. Yes, 8+1 for Limited.

[Moltke]

Since I had eye surgery and can actually see sights again, I'm going to shoot limited for a bunch of matches next year, always like iron sights. Yes, go back to the 8+1 for Limited shotgun. I'm set up for TacScope at 12+1, but it is an offshore fishing rod. Maybe design more stages with ports and tight turns to make 8+1 shotguns (true8+1,not plugged) a better option. Like Steve McQueen in The Getaway. Yes, 8+1 for Limited.

What? Stage design should not be a mechanism to put certain people at a specific disadvantage.

[EaZeNuTZ33]

Since I had eye surgery and can actually see sights again, I'm going to shoot limited for a bunch of matches next year, always like iron sights. Yes, go back to the 8+1 for Limited shotgun. I'm set up for TacScope at 12+1, but it is an offshore fishing rod. Maybe design more stages with ports and tight turns to make 8+1 shotguns (true8+1,not plugged) a better option. Like Steve McQueen in The Getaway. Yes, 8+1 for Limited.

What? Stage design should not be a mechanism to put certain people at a specific disadvantage.

if you can't beat them with skill, make it more difficult for them!

I'm tired of BJ Norris doing well.....let's make all stages have high ports and refuse to put stools under them!

[RiggerJJ]

Since I had eye surgery and can actually see sights again, I'm going to shoot limited for a bunch of matches next year, always like iron sights. Yes, go back to the 8+1 for Limited shotgun. I'm set up for TacScope at 12+1, but it is an offshore fishing rod. Maybe design more stages with ports and tight turns to make 8+1 shotguns (true8+1,not plugged) a better option. Like Steve McQueen in The Getaway. Yes, 8+1 for Limited.

What? Stage design should not be a mechanism to put certain people at a specific disadvantage.

so you have never see a stage that screws leftys?

[EaZeNuTZ33]

Since I had eye surgery and can actually see sights again, I'm going to shoot limited for a bunch of matches next year, always like iron sights. Yes, go back to the 8+1 for Limited shotgun. I'm set up for TacScope at 12+1, but it is an offshore fishing rod. Maybe design more stages with ports and tight turns to make 8+1 shotguns (true8+1,not plugged) a better option. Like Steve McQueen in The Getaway. Yes, 8+1 for Limited.

What? Stage design should not be a mechanism to put certain people at a specific disadvantage.

so you have never see a stage that screws leftys?

no body said anything was wrong with screwing over weirdos who refuse to use their correct hands to shoot and write! hahaha (I keed, I keed)

[P.E. Kelley]

Some of us use both trigger fingers!

Edited October 30, 2014 by P.E. Kelley

[EaZeNuTZ33]

ya....but you're a robot...read it on the interwebs

[Jadeslade]

Since I had eye surgery and can actually see sights again, I'm going to shoot limited for a bunch of matches next year, always like iron sights. Yes, go back to the 8+1 for Limited shotgun. I'm set up for TacScope at 12+1, but it is an offshore fishing rod. Maybe design more stages with ports and tight turns to make 8+1 shotguns (true8+1,not plugged) a better option. Like Steve McQueen in The Getaway. Yes, 8+1 for Limited.

What? Stage design should not be a mechanism to put certain people at a specific disadvantage.

Maybe you should watch The Getaway. How does tight turns and ports put certain people at a disadvantage? You want to read into things that aren't there. Let me say it again in a different way. Lots of shooters like the martial arts aspects of shooting. Calling a division Tactical Scope or Tactical Irons kind of directly relates to that. So having a fast stage where violence of gun handling and movement in tight confines -like a shoot house-is attractive. And having a shorter shotgun is an advantage. So no, stage design should be imaginative and fun. You can shoot what you want. How are people put at a disadvantage? Not sure if you understand Steelhead's proposal. On the other hand, being naturally left handed but having been taught to shoot righty-bring it on. It's fun watching otherwise really good shooters refuse to change shoulders to make tough shots easy.

[Jadeslade]

Since I had eye surgery and can actually see sights again, I'm going to shoot limited for a bunch of matches next year, always like iron sights. Yes, go back to the 8+1 for Limited shotgun. I'm set up for TacScope at 12+1, but it is an offshore fishing rod. Maybe design more stages with ports and tight turns to make 8+1 shotguns (true8+1,not plugged) a better option. Like Steve McQueen in The Getaway. Yes, 8+1 for Limited.

What? Stage design should not be a mechanism to put certain people at a specific disadvantage.

if you can't beat them with skill, make it more difficult for them!

I'm tired of BJ Norris doing well.....let's make all stages have high ports and refuse to put stools under them!

So there is more skill in shooting a gun that is 12+1 than 8+1? Yes, make stages more difficult. Is there a problem with that? You said high ports, not me. I just said ports. You don't use no- shoots or hard cover to make shots harder? I've shot a bunch with BJ and his skill level is off the charts, so he will find a way to win, no matter the scenario. Great shooter, great guy.

[Jadeslade]

Pat, you just made me laugh out loud! Awesome! That would be an Amateur shotgun in Marc P match! Excellent video! Needed that.

[EaZeNuTZ33]

Since I had eye surgery and can actually see sights again, I'm going to shoot limited for a bunch of matches next year, always like iron sights. Yes, go back to the 8+1 for Limited shotgun. I'm set up for TacScope at 12+1, but it is an offshore fishing rod. Maybe design more stages with ports and tight turns to make 8+1 shotguns (true8+1,not plugged) a better option. Like Steve McQueen in The Getaway. Yes, 8+1 for Limited.

This was the exact verbage you used. Possibly the same outcome as what you are saying now, and I think a shoothouse scenario was be fun as hell, but the implied intent of that particular way of using those words in that particular order....is to make it a disadvantage to have a longer shotgun. Keep in mind, when implying giving an advantage to one particular item, it automatically means you are giving a disadvantage to everything that is not that one particular item.

I'm not saying there is more skill in shooting a 12+1 gun over an 8+1 gun, although you do have to be more careful of snagging your tube on props/walls when moving to avoid breaking 180. In a scenario where you are going to create stages specifically for shorter shotguns, you are requiring additional skill for someone to run a 12+1 shotgun. If you require 8+1 capacity in shotguns, you DO effectively limit the loading type and effectiveness if I have to run the gun down to an empty tube in order to quad load in 8 rounds, which now favors dual loading or weak hand loading. I'm all for more difficult stages, but more difficult for the sake of punishing one type of gun or shooter? No. Empty gun starts are commonly used for shotguns to see who can load them under stress without starting with a shouldered gun, but you typically see where there is a rule saying the the bolt has to be closed on an empty chamber, effectively equalizing most shotguns. Requiring an open bolt start immediately offers an advantage to someone shooting a new A5 that autoloads that first round instead of requiring someone to port load or send the bolt home before being able to load....making a rule requiring open bolt start gives a distinct advantage to one shotgun. <---at this point you MUST have an 8+1 A5 shotgun to have a chance at winning.

I was being facetious about it being ok to screw lefties, BJ's height and making all high ports, and every stage requiring an open bolt start so that A5 shooters always win. It would be no different than saying I hate overly obese people who shoot, so every stage will have a start line 50 yards away from where you will pick up your first gun....making it a track meet makes it more difficult, but in that case, it's more difficult for the wrong reasons. And for the record, I'm a fat guy who loves stages with a lot of movement!

[Jadeslade]

I think you meant verbiage. And I am overwhelmed by yours. I'm in favor of 8+1 for Limited.

[EaZeNuTZ33]

Hopefully your opinion doesn't spread.....an underserved division is barely alive after allowing 1x optics.

[Stlhead]

The only reason people favor the unlimited capacity after the start rule is because they think it gives them an advantage. In reality it gives everyone an equal advantage, and removing it would still keep everyone on a level playing field just like they are now. People have this misguided notion that their scores would suffer relative to the other shooters in their divisions if they where not allowed to stuff more rounds into their shotgun after the beep, or that it is some left wing gun control tactic. I know that a hard 8+1 rule would eliminate the cheating that we now have (wether intentional or not) of people starting with more than 9 in the gun. It would also add another distinction between limited and scope tac. People do not choose to shoot limited because of the similarities to scope tac, they shoot it because it is different. Adding easy to implement differences will do nothing to reduce the number of people shooting limited, it will add to it by differentiating the division more.

The idea that a longer or shorter tube favors one method of loading over another is ludicrous. Some load one at a time, others 2 and still others 4, last I checked 8 was still divisible by all of these numbers. I load 4 and for the life of me can't figure how a longer tube would help me load or shoot faster, or how a shorter tube would handicap me against my competitors who would be using the same tube length no matter what method of loading.

The division is not underserved, it is smaller, but it is offered at every match I care to go to. Heavy Metal or He Man is underserved, it is not even offered at many matches. it was 2010-11when 1x was allowed in limited, and I was shooting mostly HM before that time. I changed over to limited then because I like the challenge of irons and 1x, and no one was shooting HM anymore. Limited has been well represented at most of the matches I have shot since, much better than HM. The last thing that I want to do is squash an already smaller division, but this change would in my opinion ultimately do just the opposite. Mr EaZeNuTZ33, you have stated that you may give limited a try, I applaud you for that, see what you think and make note of the situations where you think that your long tube helps you to do better than your fellow competitors who may or may not have a similar tube. More importantly does the longer tube improve your experience? What effect would widespread mandatory shell counts instituted before shooting stages effect your decision?

[EaZeNuTZ33]

Nearly my entire first year of 3-gun (2012) was in Limited/TacIrons with the 22" JM930 that held 8-9+1 when I got it. I shot Limited/TacIron a little in a few club matches this year, at Generation III Gun (3rd place behind Casanova and Vaught), and considered more. I'm not THAT new to the concept of shooting the division and actually really enjoy the simplicity of shooting with a dot and knowing where it should drop at distance. When I got my M2, I bought the only one available, a 26" field model. With my RCI XRail tube, capacity is 10rds or 12rds with extension....neither format is 8rds.

If we are going to seriously consider requiring 8+1 (not saying "don't load more" or trusting people to not change that plug for the entire match) and push for matches to make the advantage go to shorter shotguns, I'm screwed on both fronts I guess, because I'm not going to buy another M2 and rig it out with a shorter tube unless it's the ONLY shotgun I'm going to be using. Same goes for limiting pistol mag capacity, I'm not buying special mags for that division. I'll just leave that division to those people who were hell bent on seeing the division run their way.

As for 8+1 limiting loading options.....if I have a 10-13rd tube and fire 7 rds, I can still do 2 quad loads and move on thru the stage. If I have an 8rd tube, I now cannot do that unless I burn a round. Standing and loading is boring enough as it is....standing and loading 5x in a stage sounds like watching USPSA revolver division.

[Moltke]

If everyone had an 8rd tube then it would be "equal" in that regard but I appreciate the options that a longer tube gives.

Higher capacity gives more stage planning options. Load more here instead of there and allows you to shoot differently. Lines of sight might be available to make 3 positions into 2.5 or even 2 positions by having more rounds in the gun. Sometimes it makes a difference, sometimes it doesn't, but higher capacity gives options.

With higher shotgun round counts, more capacity is even nicer. For a 20rd course of fire a 12rd tube has to be reloaded once (8+12=20) whereas an 8rd tube has to be reloaded 1.5 times (8+8+4=20). If you're loading shells fast then great but you're dismounting and remounting the gun more. // For a 24rd course loading 4 in the gun as you pick it up may come in handy to shoot 12, load 12.

Sometimes it matters, sometimes it doesn't, but its nice to have options. I know you're trying to make Irons more fun but it would be more fun if more people were shooting in the division than 1-3 locally and 10-15 at majors.

[HRider]

If you want a new division to really shake things up, how about doing it like IPSC: You can do anything you want to your guns, so long as they fit in the box with magazine inserted (all mags must comply of course). Have a box for rifle, a box for shotgun and a box for pistol. Would solve all the mag capacity enforcement problems, and still force folks to run "practical" guns.

You do realize that IPSC rifle has two semi-auto divisions don't you, Standard and Open. Standard is iron sighted with no mag capacity limit, Open is really open, you can have four foot tall bi-pods, multiple bi-pods, tank brakes, multiple optics, etc. No box for either.

Hurley

[Jadeslade]

If you are bored loading a shotgun......... maybe bad stage design or some other reason. I like loading a shotgun and shooting shotgun stages, boredom has never entered my mind at a 3 gun match. Loading 12, hmm ...why would you do that? That sounds like, you know, wide open popper or clay shooting with high round count for high round count purposes, rather than clever or interesting stage design. Some of the best stages I have shot have been 8 shot speed shoots, empty gun starts, or loaded. By the way, Task Force Dagger and Blue Ridge -Horner matches-are 8+1for Limited and Tac Scope, and are outstanding, though physically difficult, matches and are very well regarded and attended. You can just plug a long tube, no need to change tubes.

[Stlhead]

Nearly my entire first year of 3-gun (2012) was in Limited/TacIrons with the 22" JM930 that held 8-9+1 when I got it. I shot Limited/TacIron a little in a few club matches this year, at Generation III Gun (3rd place behind Casanova and Vaught), and considered more. I'm not THAT new to the concept of shooting the division and actually really enjoy the simplicity of shooting with a dot and knowing where it should drop at distance. When I got my M2, I bought the only one available, a 26" field model. With my RCI XRail tube, capacity is 10rds or 12rds with extension....neither format is 8rds.

If we are going to seriously consider requiring 8+1 (not saying "don't load more" or trusting people to not change that plug for the entire match) and push for matches to make the advantage go to shorter shotguns, I'm screwed on both fronts I guess, because I'm not going to buy another M2 and rig it out with a shorter tube unless it's the ONLY shotgun I'm going to be using. Same goes for limiting pistol mag capacity, I'm not buying special mags for that division. I'll just leave that division to those people who were hell bent on seeing the division run their way.

As for 8+1 limiting loading options.....if I have a 10-13rd tube and fire 7 rds, I can still do 2 quad loads and move on thru the stage. If I have an 8rd tube, I now cannot do that unless I burn a round. Standing and loading is boring enough as it is....standing and loading 5x in a stage sounds like watching USPSA revolver division.

I am not talking about you needing another gun, just plug your long tube for limited. Not sure what you are using for pistol mags now, and don't care, as long as they are 140mm or less your golden, I don't want the pistol rules to change either. No one is hell bent on anything, we are just having a discusion.

Why would you stand and reload anyway? Unless all of your shooting is from one position. You say you want to shoot 7 and then load 8, that is a very specific circumstance, why is it any difference that me wanting to shoot 1 and load 12? Wish in 1 hand and shit in the other, we start with 9 in the gun, I am advocating making that the max to spur more entertainment and less standing reloads. It would be one more way to add the consistency that people are always yammering for. If you think 8+ 1 is not enough then try and persuade me why, but just saying because you don't like revolvers you need a long tube makes no sense.

[wgj3]

All this got screwy when whoever decided that a "heavy" division could have weeny pistols and auto shotguns...

[MickB]

Heavy Divisions should have major PF caliber, .40SW or larger, mag limit 10rds.

I have no issue with auto shotguns in Heavy Divisions, but limit the capacity at either 8 or 10.

Mick

Edited October 31, 2014 by MickB