Limited equipment rules

[Stlhead]

I would like to put these ideas out for discussion. They have come up recently in other threads, but they deserve a separate thread. If you are not a stakeholder in limited (actually shoot it on a regular basis, or are involved in rule and match Manegment), please mention it in your reply. My purpose in proposing these changes is not change for changes sake, but to increase the distinction between limited and scope tac, and open.

Shotgun max capacity of 8 + 1

Long tubes are fine as long as they are plugged

Rifle mag restriction to 30

Coupled mags, cinched mags, star mags, are fine as long as only 30 before the assembly must be removed, manipulated, and reinserted.

Failure to follow = bump to scope tac.

A case could be made for the no coupled mag rule (the JJ rule) but I sort of like saving that rule for the RM.

Thoughts?

Edited September 29, 2014 by Stlhead

[P.E. Kelley]

Something close to this has been proposed before. As long as we are going keep divisions, I would welcome more distinction between them.

[dcloudy777]

I like the concept... as I've opined elsewhere, the equipment divisions are starting to run together.

I might even think about adding some pistol restrictions as well.

[TyinTX]

I started shooting 3 gun this summer and shoot limited division by choice. I looked at the rules for any match I could find and went and bought a pistol, rifle, and a long tube for my shotgun to be able to compete. I thought about running scope tac but to me the challenge is a lot of fun when it comes to shooting non magnified at 400+.

My shotgun is 9+1 because the mag tube ends up flush with my Nova's barrel. I'm normally restricted to 8+1 at the start, why limit my capacity when I reload just to make a bigger jump to scope tac?

I have 30 and 40 round rifle mags. Some stages one has an advantage. Both are easy to find and relatively cheap. Why limit my choices for how I run a stage and force me to possibly make a reload again just to make the difference on my rifle sight a little bigger. Coupled mags I don't currently run so I have not input on that.

Really want to change limited and scope tac require limited to shoot pump shotguns. Then I won't have to keep eyeing all those fancy autoloaders.

[bmiller]

I have shot limited for 2 years simply because it is fun! Fnh has limited mag cap to 30 in both limited and tac ops. I don't agree with making it a pump only division. I have a +11 or something tube on my shotgun right now and like it. I will admit it looks goofy. I am happy with FNH's limited rules just the way they are. I past threads, it has been suggested that we bastardize it into a production division. I don't enjoy striker pistols loaded to 10 rounds! I say if it isn't broke, don't fix it!!!

[Rookie]

Per your request for input...

1. I think that there is already a considerable difference between "limited" and "Tac Scoped"... The magnified versus non-magnified sights on the rifle! Many rule sets already stipulate that you can run both non-magnified optic and iron sights on the rifle in "limited", but they cannot be offset. Most rule sets allow offset iron sights in the "scoped" division. If you want to stick on a "...rounds in a magazine..." constraint, then do it the same for both divisions. If you want further delineation with shotgun, then specify only pump shotguns in "limited"... I don't think it will be helpful to limit shotgun magazine capacity... how do you confirm this at the stage during a match???
2. If you want more discrimination between the "tactical" divisions and Open, then slap on a "30 rounds max in a magazine" constraint for rifle. Pistol and shotgun differences between Open and other divisions are fairly significant now and don't need further change.

My $0.02.

[DocMedic]

WARNING: Incoming Wall of text.

When ideas like these pop up time to time I try to think analytically, if these changes are designed to increase shooter participation or design for nostalgia purposes. None of the following is a new concept and have been practice in other matches to some extent but have also hit a bit of criticism and thus do not exist any longer in the rule set. From what I remember lets discuss the shotgun capacity ideology.

The only two matches that I can remember that did the hard 8+1, plug it if it can hold more where Hit factor days of USPSA Multigun, and Fort Benning 3gun ( I remember this one due to Taran Butler being bump to open because his mag tube was able to hold 9. ) Before load 2/4 was an accepted method weak hand was the "IT" for 3gun at the time. One of the biggest complaints that I can remember about this rule was needing to "know the rules or you'll get bump to open" Argument, and that certain people where tired of needing to change their shotgun around every time going to these big matches and would rather not support these matches because of it. Old day USPSA Multigun had all types of problems that the shotgun plugging was the least of its issues.

So unlocking the Mag tube limits after start created a whole new Meta game in are sport, thanks to the load 2/4 method. IF anytime you have a shotgun in your hands and you weren't actively shooting it, you were at a higher advantage shoving and extra 2 shells in the shotgun or in some cases 4 extra shells in your shotgun before you got to your first shooting position, allowing you technically having a 12+1 or 10+1 shotgun start. How does this translate to being an advantage to those who can only get 8 in the magazine tube? It depends on the match itself but for my personal experience I’ve notice at some of the larger matches the shotgun arrays of shooting are getting larger. Example would be at SM3G 3 years ago, Kelley Neal pointed out that every stage that required a shotgun outside of the all shotgun stage where in 10 shot arrays, none of which you started shooting the shotgun right off the bat. Because of this shooters with longer tubes where at a greater advantage, being able to fill up there mag tube up before they got to the array where shooters that could only hold 8 in the mag tube had to do at least one "standing" reload, costing time. Another personal experience I've had in the past is when I do go to a shotgun shooting parts of a stage they would be setup in 8 shot arrays, meaning if you miss you didn’t get a lot of makeup opportunities before you’re shoving more shells in while standing there, so it made me ended up going slower "calling" my hits so I wouldn't be caught in a standing reload. If I'm able to shove just even two more shells in my shotgun before I got to the array “10+1”, it would allow me 3 extra shots, so I'm allowing myself to go a little faster at shooting my targets knowing that I'll have a couple extra shells in my mag in case I miss and obviously if I miss 2 or 3 times on a target I’m going to bare down and start aiming.

When I posted about how 3gun shotguns are starting to look ridiculous, I was just partially joking about it, but I do find that shotgun have become an equipment race within itself. I do believe regulating shotguns so they only hold 8+1 isn't a Bad idea and would support it in a Division such as limited as it takes away from the “Gear advantage” and focus more on the shooters performance. Does anyone remember what the old SOF rule about shotguns? Was it the shotgun tube could not be longer than 1 inch past the muzzle of the shotgun?

Now for the 30rnd magazine limit, I don't remember much of this one other than FNH several years ago trying to limit Rifle Magazines that can only hold 30rnds in them. I remember this was such a "goat fest" that FNH had to drop the ruling weeks prior to the match as people were complaining left and right on how Magpul mags actually hold 31, or if you were using an extended base bad, etc. etc.

Personally, it would really suck if I couldn't use my Surefire 60rnd mag! (I seem to be one of the few that has never had issue with them. ) But I could understand the concept/spirit of why we would limit mags to 30rnds, and except for matches like RM3G with a heavy emphasis on rifle shooting, I don't think I ever seen a match that required you to shoot more than 30rnds of rifle before. But now we bring in a Whole new issue, do we limit magazines that can only hold 30rnds ( Think limited 141mm rule ) or only allow magazines of any size to compete as long as it only holds 30, such as surefire or Nordic/Taran magazine extended mags. And if later reason was chosen then what shooter challenge are we trying to accomplish? And if we choose the first rule with the caveat of mags have to be a certain size, how do we enforce it? I believe Limiting Mag size would be a better choice regardless how many rounds you can shove in the magazine, such as the USPSA 141mm rule, measured at the top of the feed ramp to the very bottom of the floor plate. If people want to cut a couple coils in a Rifle magazine to get a "couple" more rounds... have at it. I’m pretty sure we can find an "average" of what a 30rnd magazine should be in size between all the manufacture that make them.

As you can see, I'm all for it in Limited iron/1x division, as you mention there’s only one thing that separates limited from tactical is just the sights. But would it bring more to attendance to the division? I'd say yes on the belief that if you make the restriction to the point where you do not need to buy "extra" gear to compete in. IE Shotgun magazine tubes. Since FN SLP, Beretta, JM Mossberg, and Versa Max tactical, already come in a 8+1 configuration why should I Spend the extra money to increase my capacity $30 extra per round? 30rnd magazines are all over the place, so why should I pay an extra 40 dollars on a base pad that will only give me a 4 round advantage and an extra inch of lift on my prone shooting?

[bikerburgess]

With most matches not having long range rifle on every stage the 1x in the rifle is only a penalty on a few stages a match, not being able to load more than 8 in the tube is not that big a deal either so the divisions are still not separated much. I would like to see the handgun also restricted to something like production division. This would make limited different than tactical in all three guns and may be a good place for newer shooters to be competitive with gear they probably already have. Personally I would also like to see it be a pump division, like a light version of heavy metal

[dcloudy777]

As you can see, I'm all for it in Limited iron/1x division, as you mention there’s only one thing that separates limited from tactical is just the sights. But would it bring more to attendance to the division? I'd say yes on the belief that if you make the restriction to the point where you do not need to buy "extra" gear to compete in. IE Shotgun magazine tubes. Since FN SLP, Beretta, JM Mossberg, and Versa Max tactical, already come in a 8+1 configuration why should I Spend the extra money to increase my capacity $30 extra per round? 30rnd magazines are all over the place, so why should I pay an extra 40 dollars on a base pad that will only give me a 4 round advantage and an extra inch of lift on my prone shooting?

That is exactly the kind of thinking that went into my "split Tac Ops into Super Modified and Modified" concept. Except for the "Modified" division I also added a 4X upper limit on the rifle scope, and 17rd mag limit on the pistol. This would make two very disparate equipment sets, and dramatically decrease the cost of equipment parity in the Mod division. (Good 1-4X scopes can be found way cheaper than 1-6 or 1-8X, and it's easy to have a couple hundred bucks in magazine basepads and shotgun tube accessories to get extra rounds).

[bikerburgess]

As you can see, I'm all for it in Limited iron/1x division, as you mention there’s only one thing that separates limited from tactical is just the sights. But would it bring more to attendance to the division? I'd say yes on the belief that if you make the restriction to the point where you do not need to buy "extra" gear to compete in. IE Shotgun magazine tubes. Since FN SLP, Beretta, JM Mossberg, and Versa Max tactical, already come in a 8+1 configuration why should I Spend the extra money to increase my capacity $30 extra per round? 30rnd magazines are all over the place, so why should I pay an extra 40 dollars on a base pad that will only give me a 4 round advantage and an extra inch of lift on my prone shooting?

That is exactly the kind of thinking that went into my "split Tac Ops into Super Modified and Modified" concept. Except for the "Modified" division I also added a 4X upper limit on the rifle scope, and 17rd mag limit on the pistol. This would make two very disparate equipment sets, and dramatically decrease the cost of equipment parity in the Mod division. (Good 1-4X scopes can be found way cheaper than 1-6 or 1-8X, and it's easy to have a couple hundred bucks in magazine basepads and shotgun tube accessories to get extra rounds).

I don't like the idea of limiting pistol mags to 17 (I know that's what stock glock mags hold) if they are going to be limited they should be to 10 rd for two reasons first I can count to 10 pretty easily 17 not so much, second we have several states that are limited to 10 or 15 rounds so any body from one of those states can use their gear anywhere.

I like the idea of a size limit for the 30ish round magazines for the rifle that way we are not asking the RO's to count to 30 and its easy to check, if you think 32 rd is worth the work go for it.

[Sterling White]

While I understand where you are coming from I say don't do it. There are too many manufacturers who have built their businesses around add-on equipment. Keep the spirit of the game as it is: pistol iron sights and mags 140 ds or 170 for ss; rifle 1x or iron, shotgun iron sights w/ 8+1 at the start. The division is already small and more restriction are likely to stress it more.

Edited September 29, 2014 by Sterling White

[MarkCO]

When I was asked about the 8+1 or unlimited after the start for USPSA rules, I begrudgingly admitted that it would be nice to be in concert with the rest of the major matches. We do have many new shooters start in "Limited" with a variety of equipment, but we also have guys that are even more handicapped start in Tactical because they have a magnified optic. I have often thought that 8+1 for shotgun, 30 round mags for rifle and factory length mags for pistol would be nice. But I don't think it would add to the Division numbers.

If you want to grow limited Division, pay James to shoot another division or monkey with the prize table to give Limited better prizes.

If you want to grow the sport, run an Amateur Division. We are considering doing this at local matches. 4+1 shotgun (birdshot only), stock magazines for pistol and 30 round mags for rifle, 1x, or Irons. Shoot first match for free, and then 2 more matches only, then pick a Division. Contemplating if this will help get newer shooters to the matches without having to buy as much stuff and maybe bring them back instead of having them shoot one and get frustrated at their 23% score never to return.

Another option is 3 Divisions. Open, Tactical and Heavy. In Tactical and Heavy, pay cash to the top Irons/1X shooters, or, better yet, separate them on any stage with 100 yard or further targets, then combine them back in. Hmm, gets rid of two prize tables (MDs Like) does not kill the division and lets the top Limited guys play with the Tactical guys on an equal footing. Novel idea (I know Kurt ). Then maybe there is room for an Amateur and Lady Division at a major after all.

[TyinTX]

As you can see, I'm all for it in Limited iron/1x division, as you mention there’s only one thing that separates limited from tactical is just the sights. But would it bring more to attendance to the division? I'd say yes on the belief that if you make the restriction to the point where you do not need to buy "extra" gear to compete in. IE Shotgun magazine tubes. Since FN SLP, Beretta, JM Mossberg, and Versa Max tactical, already come in a 8+1 configuration why should I Spend the extra money to increase my capacity $30 extra per round? 30rnd magazines are all over the place, so why should I pay an extra 40 dollars on a base pad that will only give me a 4 round advantage and an extra inch of lift on my prone shooting?

That is exactly the kind of thinking that went into my "split Tac Ops into Super Modified and Modified" concept. Except for the "Modified" division I also added a 4X upper limit on the rifle scope, and 17rd mag limit on the pistol. This would make two very disparate equipment sets, and dramatically decrease the cost of equipment parity in the Mod division. (Good 1-4X scopes can be found way cheaper than 1-6 or 1-8X, and it's easy to have a couple hundred bucks in magazine basepads and shotgun tube accessories to get extra rounds).

Again I am a new shooter to 3 gun or any competetive shooting. I didn't own a AR or any semi auto rifle. So I bought one. Same goes for the pistol. Looked at my shotgun and put a Nordic tube on my hunting shotgun that I already had. The tube was $60 and I went with a +5 and considered a +6. Could have been happy with either. Rifle mags a 30 round Pmag is $12-15 and a 40 round is $18. I don't see an equipment race keeping people out of the division. I see it as the average shooter now thinks you need 4x magnification to hit a 100 yard target. Guys who want to shoot limited will and guys who want to shoot tac scope will shoot that. I run a stock XDm and a Nova pump. I feel at no disadvantage on my equipment compared to other limited shooters. The thing that currently holds me back are my skills, most of all my pistol.

Just to be clear-

1. Lets leave max mag capacity alone for all 3 guns. No reason to have limited be a reloading contest.

2. Pumps are fun for me. Lets not require it though.

Edited September 29, 2014 by TyinTX

[MarkCO]

I feel at no disadvantage on my equipment compared to other limited shooters. The thing that currently holds me back are my skills, most of all my pistol.

You are a very smart "new shooter".

[Sterling White]

Marc, even if you ran a Co legal division would it make a diff for new shooters?

[MarkCO]

Marc, even if you ran a Co legal division would it make a diff for new shooters?

No such thing and has no bearing at all on my thought process. If "we" are honest, the vast majority of us at 50% or higher in major match placement have an "investment" in our gear of at least $5K if not more like $8k and up. I personally know a total of 3 people who showed up at their "first" 3Gun match with a good set of equipment...two have sold it all and now don't shoot anymore. It takes time, experience, mentoring and some $ to get all the "stuff" we use. Sure, the 75% and up guys pour more money into gear trying to get another second on a 30 second stage, but for most it is not going to make any difference. But we sure do buy into the marketing hype that we "need" all this extra stuff...except TyinTx.

[Stlhead]

My stated intent was not to grow the division, I think it will grow or die all on it's own. My purpose was to make it a different, and at the same time introduce additional entertaining challenges. Everyone has 30ish round mags, the idea is not to stop 31 in a Pmag, its to keep guys from running 40 or 60, and everyone can plug their tube to 8, no equipment race issues. I have no opinion on the irons and non magnified optic combo, that seems like a match directors decision rule to me. I do not believe we should change the definition of a limited pistol or require the use of a pump gun, the idea is not a fundamental equipment change to the division, just a refinement of the existing rules to limit the capacity of the rifle and pistol, just like we do the pistol.

Limiting the shotgun tube capacity to 8 is not an attempt to restrict the loading style, or even to force people to to use sleek looking shorter tubes, or even for some sort of nostalgia, the idea is to bring the shotgun into the accepted definition of "Limited" iron sights, no comps or ports, and a limited amount of ammo. I feel strongly that this small change will introduce a great deal of difference between limited and scope tac, and will enhance the game. Let stage designers build shotgun stages in 10 round arrays, and let the scope tac guys load 10, the open guys are going to load 20. Good stages are not designed with one division in mind, they are designed to present creative shooting problems to be solved with the tools that you have. I am just advocating defining the tools a bit better to add spice to the challenge.

Edited September 29, 2014 by Stlhead

[TyinTX]

But we sure do buy into the marketing hype that we "need" all this extra stuff...except TyinTx.

O no, I "need" the extra stuff. I have plans for my next shotgun, mods to the pistol, different shell caddies, and I am on the second rifle, part of which came from Carbon Arms. Just putting the wife through college for her masters turns the 3 gun fund into a small ammo budget only.

My stated intent was not to grow the division, I think it will grow or die all on it's own. My purpose was to make it a different, and at the same time introduce additional entertaining challenges. Everyone has 30ish round mags, the idea is not to stop 31 in a Pmag, its to keep guys from running 40 or 60, and everyone can plug their tube to 8, no equipment race issues. I have no opinion on the irons and non magnified optic combo, that seems like a match directors decision rule to me. I do not believe we should change the definition of a limited pistol or require the use of a pump gun, the idea is not a fundamental equipment change to the division, just a refinement of the existing rules to limit the capacity of the rifle and pistol, just like we do the pistol.

Limiting the shotgun tube capacity to 8 is not an attempt to restrict the loading style, or even to force people to to use sleek looking shorter tubes, or even for some sort of nostalgia, the idea is to bring the shotgun into the accepted definition of "Limited" iron sights, no comps or ports, and a limited amount of ammo. I feel strongly that this small change will introduce a great deal of difference between limited and scope tac, and will enhance the game. Let stage designers build shotgun stages in 10 round arrays, and let the scope tac guys load 10, the open guys are going to load 20. Good stages are not designed with one division in mind, they are designed to present creative shooting problems to be solved with the tools that you have. I am just advocating defining the tools a bit better to add spice to the challenge.

I just don't see making reloads the deciding factor between divisions as all that meaningful. It would make stage planning different sure. But so does having the option between a 40 round and 30 round. Use a 40 and shoot prone of the stairs they had some stages at Raton and you will suddenly find yourself wishing that you had a 30. Limited I can see a requirement that all rifle mags must be double stack only. Using a lower capacity on any of the guns then what can be had stock would push somebody like me from limited to scope tac if they are still able to use stock capacity.

Edited September 29, 2014 by TyinTX

[Sterling White]

I run longer mags not because they hold more rounds although nice but because they give me better positioning and less stress on the neck when I go prone on level ground. Not every person is built the same If the sg stages are well built there is very little advantage to extensions. USPSA previously had this rule and I remember a lot of whining....

[SonOfSpartans]

Every change will impact someone. I chose to go tacops to start. Learned I needed a tube but did not put it on until I KNEW it would help. I run a 1*6 optic. Pushing that up to some new class and I am left with a decision.

I run ONE AR in 3Gun, 2Gun and DMR. The first and third in my area are difficult to do with irons or a three or four power. Look at the FNH match. That is my home field and they like to see if one can shoot a carbine at the edges.

I will not build another gun. I will chose.

I really like MarkCO comments about novice or sportsman class. I have competed in other things that tracked new players regionally. Sportsmen get graduated out or can volunteer. Top couple are volunTOLD to prevent sandbagging.

[Moltke]

How many shooters do you know that jump back between TACIRONS and TACOPS? And do they use the same guns?

I do all the time. Same guns, same gear, but I have an extra rifle with an 1-6x optic for the other division in case I want to shoot Optics.

I think these changes would be totally OK and widely accepted as long as you can use the same gear and shoot with reduced capacity.

30rds in a rifle magazine no matter the length

15rds in a pistol magazine no matter the length

8+1rds in a shotgun no matter the length

Plug it if you want to, or use longer mags if you want to, but download them appropriately

USPSA trusts Production shooters to download their guns and it works fine, we can do the same, and if you mess up ===> welcome to Open

Edited September 29, 2014 by Moltke

[CJW]

USPSA trusts Production shooters to download their guns and it works fine, we can do the same, and if you mess up ===> welcome to Open

I generally agree, with one small caveat. For a Production or L-10 pistol, you know that every time the shooter reloads there are 11 (or 10 if at slide lock) rounds in the gun. Fairly easy for an RO or scorekeeper to catch 12 (or 11) rounds between reloads. In the case of a shotgun, it's not always easy to see how many rounds a shooter has loaded on the clock, therefore unless the shooter happens to run a single string of 10+ rounds without reloading, it's hard to catch.

Now, I have no dog in this fight (I might shoot some Irons/Limited next year), but as an RO I would prefer if a shotgun rule like this were to require the guns to be plugged. It's not that hard to do and, worse comes to worse, an MD could stock some thick wooden dowel to help out new shooters after a rule like this gets adopted.

[Sterling White]

Limited historically meant irons on a rifle then the 1x optics hit the market with no place to go so the iron shooters argued to let them into limited and take them out of tac ops. Now there is some grumbling that the dots are more popular than irons. So the argument then becomes sg. What is the issue with 8+1 to start and the use extensions? There are a number of top competitors that can load an eight or nine rd tube who routinely go up against other competitors that use 12 or 13 rd tubes - results are mixed. I haven't read anything yet that defines why the rule is needed. And yes, I run both a normal and extended tube sg. Only in few instances does the extended tube provide added benefit and that is usually poor stage design. Once on the clock your either loading or shooting.

Edited September 29, 2014 by Sterling White

[Moltke]

The same can be said for someone breaking any rules like having a magnified optic but shooting IRONS division unnoticed because everyone figures they're in TACOPS and nobody double checks.

... Not making that up either, it happens.

[Moltke]

Limited historically meant irons on a rifle then the 1x optics hit the market with no place to go so the iron shooters argued to let them into limited and take them out of tac ops. What is the issue with 8+1 to start and the use extensions? I haven't read anything yet that defines why the rule is needed. There are a number of top competitors that can load an eight or nine rd tube who routinely go up against other competitors that use 12 or 13 rd tubes.

You mean just do away with the 8+1 rule altogether and let people start with however much they want?