swingers vs skill level or class

[motosapiens]

Since there seem to be alot of swingers at nationals this year, I've worked on them a bit more the last couple weeks, but I'm not sure if I'm doing ok or what. At what skill level or class is it pretty standard to be able to get at least A/C consistently on the first presentation on a normal swinger at 10 yards or so? Should any A be able to do that, or is it more of a master-level skill?

I just made A in production, and I tend to be a more-accurate less-fast shooter. If I let it present twice, I can get 2A pretty consistently, but the second presentation adds 1-1.5 seconds. If I try to hit it twice on the first presentation, I got some A/C's, but also some A/D, C/C, even some C/D and a couple of mikes over the course of the afternoon. Worse yet, I often couldn't call the 2nd shot.

Do I need to focus more on swingers, or is it reasonable for an A shooter to let some swingers present twice and get the alphas and be safe? It seems to me that unless I can really bank on 6 pts minimum (A/D or C/C), I'm probably better off taking an extra 1.2 seconds and getting 8 or 10 pts and not throwing hopers that sometimes turn out to be mikes. What are other people doing?

[kneelingatlas]

I'm just a B class shooter, but I can usually get at least one A and maybe a C/D if I just rip 3-4 shots in one presentation.

[Nimitz]

As you know I just recently made B (66.39 %) and over the last 3 local monthly matches I've shot I've managed to shot all the swingers in each match clean in the following sequence: activator, target next to it, then swinger. In addition, I cleard the polish plate rack from 12 yds at yesterday's match before either weight came off ... So yeah, I would think as an A class shooter you should easily be able to take out swingers on the first pass with at least A/C ...

[MWP]

As usual, distance and speed of swingers applies, but if it's a tougher shot, sometimes 3 on first presentation is worth more stage points than waiting for a second look.

Close/slower/ easier swingers, I think it's best to just fire two as the swinger stops and starts to rise, letting the muzzle rise to the second shot.

Edited September 15, 2014 by MWP

[rowdyb]

sounds like you're doing the best thing by practicing on a swinger of your own. ( i just bought one last month as well). run it in as many iterations and set ups as you can. push it hard, see what you can and get away with. shoot whole mags at it.

at the mink vogel class I took we did some work on swingers, seeing how we did on track versus ambush strategy. seeing how many shots we could get in a presentation.

doing all these things you're building your base level of experience so when you see how one is in a match, you have a pretty good idea of what you can do. generically, i would say at A you should be hitting them first presentation if that is the best stage plan.

again, all disclaimers from someone else learning as well.

[pjb45]

I am just an average B shooter and I usually hit the A and C/A in a single showing. Activator, next target, swinger is my normal sequence.

I talked with Mike Seeklander about it. He said ambush it. Look to see where other bullets had been hitting the dirt behind the swinger when it has completed the down stroke. Move your gun to that spot and ambush the target.

Notice your split times and compare that to how long the target takes to approach the downstroke, rest, and begin the upstroke.

This should give the confidence to fire two shots, not three! Everytime I second guessed myself and fired the third shot, there were three hits on the target.

Acquire the confidence to hit the swinger in two hits.

[motosapiens]

thanks for the ideas. fwiw, at 7-8 yards it's a whole different story, and 2 good hits on the first presentation are pretty repeatable.

Also, fwiw, 2 good hits 'most of the time' is not imho acceptable, because that means at least some of the time you're hosing yourself. I need 2 good hits every time, or at least to be sure when I didn't get the 2nd hit so I can make it up.

As rowdy notes, I think the important thing right now is to know what I can do and what I can't, so on a longer shot on a swinger, I may just need to eat the extra second and be sure of good points and no penalties, and then I can continue to experiment and learn when the stakes are lower.

[Jayohee]

I have problems with swingers as well (B shooter Prod) and I believe it's less about their difficulty as much as it is a lack of practice. Whenever we have practice sessions no one ever sets up a swinger and I think the next opportunity I get I'll be asking the duty RO if we can set one up. Another thing I've seen is people who track the swinger on the 1st presentation. I subscribed to a local A shooter's Youtube channel and he consistently seems to get AA or AC this way. He's also in Prod

[Chris iliff]

Moto

I think the "fire more than 2" advice is terrible. If you are "seeing" your shots then there is no reason not to get your hits. Like every target, we can get two A's if we try.

I always ambush them at the dwell point, or whatever the point is where they kinda stop before reversing direction.

During a Manny Bragg class he explained that he tracks them. Then we practiced doing this. Basically following them with the sights from the moment they are visible through their entire arc. It's different, but with practice it is pretty hard to miss them. At first, following them felt awkward, but I got better at it during the session and can see the merit.

I don't have a swinger at home, so burning it in never happened for me. With that said, I still ambush at the dwell point but then kinda track it as it reverses direction and this is where I get my second shot.

Either way, good luck and video!

[rowdyb]

yep, i bought my own swinger and drag it out to the range and dry fire it in the garage. that 200$ investment was sooo worth it in getting over swingers. nothign like shooting 2 or 3 hundred rounds at a swinger in just one practice session. you'll see it more in that two hours than you will in a year of matches and there is something to be said for that.

[Supermoto]

Moto

I think the "fire more than 2" advice is terrible. If you are "seeing" your shots then there is no reason not to get your hits. Like every target, we can get two A's if we try.

I always ambush them at the dwell point, or whatever the point is where they kinda stop before reversing direction.

During a Manny Bragg class he explained that he tracks them. Then we practiced doing this. Basically following them with the sights from the moment they are visible through their entire arc. It's different, but with practice it is pretty hard to miss them. At first, following them felt awkward, but I got better at it during the session and can see the merit.

I don't have a swinger at home, so burning it in never happened for me. With that said, I still ambush at the dwell point but then kinda track it as it reverses direction and this is where I get my second shot.

Either way, good luck and video!

I agree. People that consistently blast 3 shots at a swinger are not calling their shots and will never get better at them.. tracking is the way to go because you can shoot them as soon as your sights are on them. If I shoot the activator and get to the swinger early, I can track it down. If I'm late, I can track it back up. I used to ambush only, but if the target isn't there, then you are just wasting time

I think 10 yards on a swinger were you can see the stop, B class should be able to get good hits all day long

Edited September 16, 2014 by Supermoto

[motosapiens]

I think 10 yards on a swinger were you can see the stop, B class should be able to get good hits all day long

I can get A's all day long at 10-12 yards, just only 1 per swing with reliability. I think part of the problem is slow splits. When I get the 2nd shot off in .30 or .35, the swinger has already accelerated and is moving pretty good. When I get the 2nd shot off in under .3, the 2nd shot is more likely a C than a D, and the faster split is just a result of better grip and better sight awareness, so I can work on that, along with more dry-fire practice at video swingers and another live-fire session or two.

[Supermoto]

If you are running slow splits, then fire one shot as you track the swinger coming down and then another shot as it stops. If it is a swinger that is only available when it is in full swinger and a narrow window, then sometimes you have to take 2 passes at it.

Also practice how many targets you can get between the activator and the swinger, it is usually more than you think

Edited September 16, 2014 by Supermoto

[BoyGlock]

A class in IPSC Standard and Open. I reliably get 2 hits in first presentation of swingers from 20y and below w/ option target of paper or steel (w/ not so wide transition) between activator and swinger that swings at normal speed. Key for me is confidence that I dont need to rush to get to the swinger on time.

Eta: think its more of 15y and below ?

Edited September 16, 2014 by BoyGlock

[motosapiens]

If you are running slow splits, then fire one shot as you track the swinger coming down and then another shot as it stops.

I think this is a key for me. I spent some time with the predator tactical swinger app and my tendency is to wait for the swinger to stop, then shoot once and by the time i get off the 2nd shot, it's moving pretty quickly back up. Since my initial swinger practice as a slow C was only 1 shot per swing, that made sense.

With the app, i seemed to have some success by getting the first shot off earlier as it's starting to slow on the way down. Basically I think I just need to start shooting earlier. Thanks for the ideas.

[motosapiens]

After action report: I gave up a few D's but got good hits in one pass on the majority of swingers at nats, so mission accomplished. I'll continue to work on them every now and then so that I'll have more options in my toolbox when planning a swinger stage.

[Nik Habicht]

When I was in the groove, I got pretty good results by ambushing the swinger near the point where it stops and reverses direction. The trick is to break the first shot as the leading edge of the A-zone covers your front sight, and then to just let the gun recoil and break the second shot before it departs.....

You don't want to set up right where it changes directions, but a little up in the arc -- so you get some travel into the A-zone as the first shot hits, and then with recoil pushing the gun up slightly, you're still there for the second Alpha.....

The other crucial thing is to have good left/right alignment so that you're not scoring the high or low C/D (when looking at the target with the head up....)