Was this a legal stage?

[kcobean]

Rule 1.1.5.4 says "Medium or Long courses of fire may stipulate the use of either strong hand or weak hand, provided that only one hand, either strong or weak, is specified for no more than the last 6 shots required."

So here's a stage from the 2012 Area 3 Championships. Is this stage, which is 16 rounds, strong hand only with 8 shots, reload, 8 shots, a legal stage?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umE_ZpJsHp4&feature=youtu.be&t=3m51s

[Poppa Bear]

Yes.

1.1.5 Freestyle – USPSA matches are freestyle. Competitors must be permitted

to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner, and to shoot

targets on an “as and when visible” basis. Courses of fire must not

require mandatory reloads nor dictate a shooting position, location or

stance, except as specified below. However, conditions may be created,

and barriers or other physical limitations may be constructed, to compel

a competitor into shooting positions, locations or stances.

1.1.5.4 says you can specify the SH or WH using the WSB. Most designers would prefer to force the SH or WH using props.

[kcobean]

Ok, so you're saying that in a course of fire that *could* be shot entirely freestyle, the WSB may not stipulate anything more than the final 6 shots as single-handed, but you can use props and such to force an entire stage to be strong or weak hand only? I guess in this case "stipulate" is a bit vague.

[MAC702]

If I understood the question and the rule, it does not seem legal to me.

I could see how the course of fire could dictate a point near the end where a hand is disabled, requiring the next and last array to be engaged with one hand. It would not be possible for the bad hand to miraculously heal and be useful in the rest of the course. And I've always assumed that going one-handed is not required for more than the last six shots so that reloads can always be done with two hands safely.

EDIT: Okay, I just watched the video, and there was a key factor that was not in the description given by the OP. Looks like the weak hand was engaged by a prop so as not to be available when in firing position, yet it was available when you stepped back from firing position to reload. This seems legal to me, and quite clever actually.

Edited September 12, 2014 by MAC702

[gng4life]

Do you have the WSB or know exactly what it said?

[kcobean]

Nope, I don't have the WSB gng4life. We had a stage at a local match that was very similar. Our weak-hand was tied to a tether that prevented its use for freestyle shooting and you had to step out of the FFZ to the rear to reload or risk a 180 violation. The WSB specified strong-hand only for all shots.

[ChuckS]

Here is an example of a "freestyle" stage from the upcoming USPSA Handgun Nationals:

14_USPSA_Nationals_Stage_11.pdf

This stage also satisfies 1.1.5.5

Later,

Chuck

[wide45]

Nope, I don't have the WSB gng4life. We had a stage at a local match that was very similar. Our weak-hand was tied to a tether that prevented its use for freestyle shooting and you had to step out of the FFZ to the rear to reload or risk a 180 violation. The WSB specified strong-hand only for all shots.

The part where the WSB specifies strong hand only for all shots is not legal unless its a 6 round stage. The stage would be legal if they left that part out, but through the use of props forced the use of one hand.

[Jim Norman]

What has been done so far as I can see from watching the video is to make it impossible to shoot the stage from within the FFZ using other than your strong hand. You have to step out, back behind the FFZ to get the freedom to reload and then step back in in order to shoot without a penalty. Shooting outside the FFZ in this stage SHOULD be a per shot penalty as to stand far enough outside and shoot freestyle would be a definite advantage gained.

I don't like this course, but I can't see where it is not a legal stage.

I'd like to be able to say that the 'briefcase' must be held with the shooter's weak or support hand, by its handle except to reload when the case may be set down. That we cannot do as we are not allowed, without a Level One exemption and I'd check this first.

[Onagoth]

What would the point of 1.1.5.4 be if stage designers can get around it with props?

[motosapiens]

What would the point of 1.1.5.4 be if stage designers can get around it with props?

to force stage designers to use props so that shooters can solve the problem however they see fit instead of just telling them 'do this, then do that'.

[Thomas H]

Nope, I don't have the WSB gng4life. We had a stage at a local match that was very similar. Our weak-hand was tied to a tether that prevented its use for freestyle shooting and you had to step out of the FFZ to the rear to reload or risk a 180 violation. The WSB specified strong-hand only for all shots.

The part where the WSB specifies strong hand only for all shots is not legal unless its a 6 round stage. The stage would be legal if they left that part out, but through the use of props forced the use of one hand.

Yep. And that's what the A3 stage was like---it didn't specify anything about hand requirements, merely that the tether had to be in a specific place, and you had to start from a certain position, and the shooting area was defined.

As such---legal. Sneaky, but legal.

[38SuperDub]

What it did NOT define was that you had to be tethered WHILE shooting - I tried to unhook myself and then shoot freestyle - of course this got called a forbidden action because that wasn't the "intention" - gotta love that word!

[motosapiens]

What it did NOT define was that you had to be tethered WHILE shooting - I tried to unhook myself and then shoot freestyle - of course this got called a forbidden action because that wasn't the "intention" - gotta love that word!

Weak. Forbidden action means 'oops, the stage designer screwed up and is trying to cover his tracks'.

[MaraW]

Brandon, if that's what happened that's not legal. Forbidden action can only be used now for safety issues, probably to keep it from it being used for "oops, I didn't think they would do that " situations on the part of the stage designer.

I didn't realize this was a 2012 match. Old rule book, old FA rule...glad they changed it though.

Edited September 12, 2014 by MaraW

[shootingchef]

I for one am hoping that the correction the "FA" rule is enforced. "Because I said so!" is not a good excuse.

[Jim Norman]

And for USPSA Pistol Matches I agree. Mostly.

[not4you2know]

What it did NOT define was that you had to be tethered WHILE shooting - I tried to unhook myself and then shoot freestyle - of course this got called a forbidden action because that wasn't the "intention" - gotta love that word!

Stage designer slip up. He should have stated that you had to remain tethered for the entire COF. The stage is legal for sure. You don't have to like it, but I often use props in my stages to get people to shot OH/MH. I once stated that a cat carrier be moved from point a to point b without throwing it. I saw people doing all kinds of stuff like putting it down to shot, shooting with it bracing the SH, and shooting everything and then grabbing it. The higher HFs were simply shooting it MHO. It makes people think. The stage in the OP forced more than MHO, it was also an awkward body position and strange movements. This was a good one from 2013 GA state where you where handcuffed to a table.

[terrydoc]

We had a similar stage at our National Championships a few years ago and we learnt a lesson about using velcro, cut it to size and don't allow it too long as guys gamed the stage by having the velcro loose and were able to get their strong hand far enough over.