To shoot on the move or not to shoot on the move?

[DrLove]

ok, so I've been trying to completely shoot everything on the move for the last month or so. Guess what, I"m doing much worst than I used to!! So the obvious explanation is that I"m over doing it. The question is, when in a stage to shoot on the move and when to simply move faster to some point then start shooting??

[MikeRush]

Have you practiced shooting on the move in dry fire, and then in live?

It is amazing to me how much more I see while on the verge of boredom in the garage compared to after the buzzer goes off at the match. It helps explain some of the accuracy challenges I have had shooting on the move in matches. I am still gaining confidence with this skill, but when I watch the super squad shoot (particularly the Open shooters) there isn't a whole lot of static shooting on field courses.

[Hi-Power Jack]

I've been shooting everything on the move for the last month. when to shoot on the move and when to simply move faster??

That's best answered by Your Own experience.

Sounds like you've shot 500 rounds on the move in the past month - some were good ideas, and some weren't

good ideas, for You at this stage in your development.

You should relive the experiences and break down which types of targets/distances gave you the most trouble -

head shots, steel, no-shoots? Past 10 yards? Past 12 yards.

It's really all a matter of how you move, how quickly you're moving, and your level of experience.

Any shot can be taken "on the move" - but at varying speeds.

Up to YOU to determine which shots to really slow down for - and practice a lot.

I'm almost there myself - stil facing same problem you are . so, good luck to both of us.

[Ben Stoeger]

ok, so I've been trying to completely shoot everything on the move for the last month or so. Guess what, I"m doing much worst than I used to!! So the obvious explanation is that I"m over doing it. The question is, when in a stage to shoot on the move and when to simply move faster to some point then start shooting??

Are you looking at the times/points at all? You should be learning a lot from this experiment.

[Nimitz]

like with most things in our sport you need to set up some scenarios in training and put them to the timer test. Only then will you know which is "faster". However, beware. You also need to be honest with yourself. If you can't repeatable (not 1 in 5 try's) get the same or better score by moving than moving is the wrong tactic. Remember, it's hit factor that matters, not raw points. For steel, unless you can guarantee one for one hits on the move you'll be much better taking them while not moving.

If you watch the top shooters run a field course there is not as much "shooting on the move" as you might think. What you do see is efficient movement ... they shoot a target as soon as it is available when moving into a position, they shoot a target as they are leaving a position, etc. bottom line: they "transition" much better than anyone else and this sometimes gets confused with 'shooting on the move'.

If it were me I would spend my training time learning how to move into an out of positions as efficiently as possible before I spent time simple shooting while moving ... and as was mentioned earlier, dry fire is where you'll learn this ...

[mgardner]

I've learned that the only targets I can habitually get away with shooting on the move are the ones I'm coming into nearly straight on and aren't partially covered by a no shoot. Anything else there's too much chance for disaster.

[jroback]

The first time I shot IDPA I was predictably horrible at shooting on the move. I have been working on this during dry fire, and 1 trick that has helped me is to shoot at the same time during each stride. When my foot moves forward I release pressure on the trigger until it resets, and then I break the shot and pin the trigger back when that foot lands. It has taken me a while to develop muscle memory for this, but it seems to have helped.

[alma]

ok, so I've been trying to completely shoot everything on the move for the last month or so. Guess what, I"m doing much worst than I used to!! So the obvious explanation is that I"m over doing it. The question is, when in a stage to shoot on the move and when to simply move faster to some point then start shooting??

I think shooting on the move is often over emphasized. Efficient entries and exits (which could be considered shooting on the move) are much more important over all.

Shooting on the move may be great for short to medium range targets that you can hit on the move to another position but it's not always the best thing to do.

I shoot mostly Production so working in time for a reload between positions is also another factor that might sometimes lead me to plant and quickly shoot an array versus shooting on the move through it and being left with a static reload a the end.

I guess as others have mentioned it is something you need to learn for yourself but make sure you have a timer and are calculating hit factor when you perform your analysis.

To summarize, shooting on the move is a great tool but it isn't best for every scenario. Don't try to hard to cram that round peg of shooting on the move into the square hole of each and every field course.

[Poppa Bear]

Practice a lot of movement while dry firing. You have to find what works so that you can keep the sights stable as you move. Do not concentrate on moving, concentrate on your sight picture. Your body will find the pace that keeps the gun stable. With practice that pace will pick up.

You will rarely see the top shooters engaging tight target locations while moving. They engaging the wide open targets that allow them to move quickly from position to position. Then they take a target on the way into the position and one on the way out.

[Just4FunLP]

I also like to do some shooting on the move in practice. It's exciting and (I think) builds confidence. On close targets you can usually score good hits, especially if can afford to throw in a 3rd shot just to be safe.

On a couple of occasions I've had situations where there was an array at the back of the stage with a large popper and I was going to end up dropping a mag with a few extra rounds anyway, so I blasted away at the popper as I was charging into position. To my great surprise it worked perfectly each time. I must say it was very impressive . I'm sure this may not make sense at a world championship, but for a C class shooter at a local match, what do you have to loose. A big popper is pretty easy to hit and you can see whether or not it goes down.

Although I did have an incident where there was a bunch of close targets that forced you to swing from right to left and I was moving a little faster than I could turn and almost broke the 90. In fact I had to step back to make the shot and got the evil eye from the RO.

[DrLove]

Since I might not have explained my point correctly, let me try again. I'm not speaking about open targets at say 3-5yards, those are not issue taking on the move.

Now consider the following scenario.

You have two arrays of targets centered around two points, call them A and B. From A you can see all the targets around A but only 2 of the targets at B. So once you're done shooting the targets at A, you must move to B (which say is 10 yards away from A) to finish your stage. Now you have two options once done shooting the first array at A:

You can start moving toward B relatively slowly so you can take the 2 targets that are visible to you while moving until you reach point B.

OR, you can do a quick (and efficient) exit out of B followed by an efficient entry into B and take all the targets when you're at B.

I'm finding that in most of the cases for me the second options lead to better points and time (since I can move between A and B much faster when I'm not shooting and trying to stabilize the gun).

Obviously the scenario above assume you have nothing else to do between A and B (i.e. no need to reload for example).

[alma]

Given this scenario I would likely get almost to B and start shooting one or two targets as I settle into position.

[Poppa Bear]

Take everything at A and then make a quick move towards B. As you get to B you slow down your movement so that you can stop in a stable shooting position. It is as you are slowing down entering position B that you take 2,3,4 targets. If A and B were closer, or if there were targets available between A and B your taking targets on the move would become advantageous.

You have to make an honest assessment of your shooting and moving skills. Is it quicker to run to position B and form a stable platform to engage the targets, or is it quicker to engage targets as you move between the two? Is the best option to run quickly towards B and to slow down at one, two or three points to engage targets? This all depends on how much distance has to be covered, what targets are available between the points, how difficult the shots are going to be. The big difference between a C shooter and a GM is how quickly they can move efficiently through the course.

Try searching Youtube for videos of some of the GM shooters shooting wide open field courses. You will see them run quickly, slow down to take several shots, go back to full speed, and then slow down to engage another set of targets when the arrays are spread out. You will also see them high speed walk their way through a COF that has many closely spaced targets. They are trying to find that right balance between speed of movement and the need for accurate shots.

[motosapiens]

Lots of good suggestions here. As a production shooter, I usually only find one or two targets that are worth shooting on the move each match. typically, in the situation you describe where you have to go to B anyway, I would just haul azz to B and shoot stuff really fast.

Where I find shooting on the move useful is when there are 1 or 2 targets on the way to B that you can't see from position B. Depending on distance, it may make sense to shoot them on the move rather than stopping for them.

Definitely worth experimenting, both in dryfire and in live-fire.

[Poppa Bear]

A good course for shooting on the move was the all steel stage at Area 3. Wide open poppers spaced along one side with groups of poppers on the other side. Shooters would stop and take the groups and then move forward taking the spaced out poppers as they advanced to the next group.

[Jayohee]

ok, so I've been trying to completely shoot everything on the move for the last month or so. Guess what, I"m doing much worst than I used to!! So the obvious explanation is that I"m over doing it. The question is, when in a stage to shoot on the move and when to simply move faster to some point then start shooting??

Have you looked at your time/points relative to the top shooters in the match? Did they also shoot on the move? Whenever I try something new (granted I executed it well) I compare my time/points the top guys to see if it was worth it or not. Taking videos of them and looking at my own also helps. I shot a plate rate on the move yesterday and although I executed it pretty well I found that compared to the top guys it didn't make much of a difference (it's in my latest vid, stage 4). I was probably just as good hustling into position and mowing them down, which would be an easier approach of the two.

That said, people like Max Michel say easy targets should either be shot on the move or shot with an easy exit. It will obviously depend on your ability and comfort level but something wide open @ 5-6 yards is kind of a no brainer

[HardChrome]

The more you practice the better you'll get.

[gigsaw]

On the move is always a plus.

[waktasz]

Just keep practicing it. It's amazing the gains you can make once you understand your limitations and when something might feel slower or awkward but turn out better on the clock.

Edited February 23, 2015 by waktasz

[Steve Moneypenny]

This is an age old argument,

You need to bend your knees roll through the movement smoothly and efficiently, if not your better off standing and shooting then running.. but in the end you need to be taking shots going into or out of position a LOT. so it is a skill you need to practice. I've watched countless top shooters take targets on the move vs static. and it goes back and forth on their specific comfort level.

[kneelingatlas]

When are the best shooters in your squad shooting on the move? That's a good place to start.

What division are you shooting?

[Robco]

The first question to consider on shooting on the move, is whether you should or not on any given targets or array. You have to know your own capabilities and limitations with regard to shooting on the move of all target difficulties.

Moving sideways (not to or away from the target(s)) is the hardest variety. Manny Bragg and I spent a half hour and 200 rounds proving our limitations on this scenario. 4 full-open IPSC targets, spaced 3 yards apart. We moved in a line parallel to them. We found, consistently, that my maximum range was 7 yards. At 8 yards I threw C's. At 7 yards, all A's. Manny, a top 5 or 10 in the world shooter, was only 1 yard longer than my limitation. His was at 8 yards.

For partials and N/S risk, this distance decreases significantly.

So, find out what your capabilities are (what you can do, getting all A hits, 5 out of 5 runs). And apply this filter when studying a stage for opportunities. Shooting on the move is all about points per second. If you have to move so slow to get A hits, then it is probably better to shoot and run instead. Shooting on the move slow, gives you the worst of both worlds - reduced accuracy and inefficient ground covering.

When moving towards or away from targets, shooting on the move can be done at a much longer range. Find out your capabilities on these too. This is your "database" as Saul Kirsch calls it. Learn yours from practice notes. A match is not the place to "try" something. And if you cannot do it 5 out of 5 times for sure, do NOT try it in a match.

Open shooters can get away with a lot more than iron sights shooters when it comes to shooting on the move. Do not try to follow an open shooter's example if you are not shooting open.

As many pointed out above, a lot of time gains come from the close kin to shooting on the move, which is shooting while the body is not still, while entering a location and while leaving a location. This can shave a half second or more off of each end of a transition. It is actually shooting while "leaning." It is different that shooting on the move, because you are not violently putting down your feet while shooting leaving/entering. This is why it can be done quite accurately.

Prove it all to yourself, in live fire on the clock. Set up 5 targets 8 feet apart, in a line. A shooting box at each end of this line. Start at one end, 7 yards away, and move in a line parallel to the targets as you shoot them. First scenario, draw and shoot the first four without moving your feet, from Box A, then run down to Box B at the end across from the last target T5 and shoot the last target after entering the box (to stop the clock for comparison purposes). Do several runs to get a representative time, and Hit Factor (HF).

Then, second scenario, Start in Box A and shoot all of the first four targets on the move heading towards box B. Enter Box B and shoot the last target. Repeat to get an avg HF on this scenario. Compare the two scenario results.

I assure you that you will be significantly better off shooting on the move, both in accuracy and faster time too. HF will probably be 30% higher here by shooting on the move. I have done this with a dozen trainees and every single time it increased their accuracy and reduced their times by 30%. One reason the accuracy increased when shooting on the move, is because you are significantly closer to T3 and T4 than when you shot them from Box A = a benefit not always recognized when closing distance by shooting on the move. Even though your accuracy is challenged due to a moving gun, being able to engage a target at half the range more than makes up for it, PLUS the time savings of covering ground while shooting at the same time. Points per second.

Ever wonder why some stages have 14 Hit factors (HF) and some have 4 HF averages? It is due to how much of the time shooting is occurring. If you have to do a lot of running around between having targets to shoot at, it will be a lower HF. If you can shoot 8 targets from one location, it will be a high HF. When you are not shooting, the timer is still running and robbing you of points at the rate of the stage HF for you. So you want to be shooting as much of the time as you can be! Shooting on the move, when appropriate, allows more points per second for that part of the stage. Top performers minimize the time that they are not shooting. Shooting holes in the paper (or knocking down steel) is the ONLY source of points in our sport. Period. They speed up everything between the actual shooting to decrease the loss of points the non-shooting time costs them.They are ready to shoot sooner when entering a location, and shoot later while leaving a position sooner = all to shorten the time between shots.

This is the type of testing you need to do to learn your own capabilities and limitations, so you can appropriately decide when or when not to shoot on the move in any given stage/array.

Edited March 3, 2015 by Robco

[Just4FunLP]

Thanks for taking the time to write all that... It's very good. Yesterday I received Saul Kirsch's books Perfect Practice and Thinking Practical Shooting. I went to my first big match last month and made a lot of mistakes. The root cause of most of the mistakes occurred before the buzzer went off (bad/stupid decisions). I definitely need systematic way to decide how to run a stage. I also need to make a short checklist of things to before each stage.

[Robco]

Thanks for taking the time to write all that... It's very good. Yesterday I received Saul Kirsch's books Perfect Practice and Thinking Practical Shooting. I went to my first big match last month and made a lot of mistakes. The root cause of most of the mistakes occurred before the buzzer went off (bad/stupid decisions). I definitely need systematic way to decide how to run a stage. I also need to make a short checklist of things to before each stage.

Good deal Lawton. Saul Kirsch is great. Listen to his stuff. I have several of his training DVDs too. You should check out his two, entitled 3GM 1 and 2. Awesome. I have watched them MANY times over and learn more each time. Max and Angus and Saul give their own perspectives on each area of training. What big match did you shoot recently, the Florida Open (based on your video link)?

Edited March 6, 2015 by Robco

[Just4FunLP]

Yea it pretty much kicked my butt... Here is what on another thread after the match....

It was my first big match. I made mistakes on every stage except the last one. Lanny Bassham would say I shouldn't focus on the mistakes, but only on the things I did right... Well that's a pretty short list. I actually experienced butterflies (a real tingling in my gut) before we started shooting the first stage. I think I literally fumbled a mag (that is dropped on the ground) on the first 3 stages. On stage 1 I forgot to change my mag as I was dropping to shoot from my knee. No big deal... but when I went to grab the mag it was empty... EMPTY!!! I was so freakin disgusted with myself I forgot to walk over and step on the dadgum activator and got a procedural. It was really getting comical at that point. I hope everyone enjoyed it.

My excuse du jour was that I only had about 5 hours of sleep the first day, and 5-1/2 on the second. WAAA!

The one thing I did do right was go. Everyone on Squad 27 was helpful and I had an awesome experience.

I was over cautious on targets I could have shot faster and really didn't do any shooting on the move. I tend to shoot low, nevertheless I decided to try the targets on the right side of stage 7 from the front of the stage. BIG NS... STUPID STUPID STUPID!!! I also think I may have had a malfunction or two because I didn't clean my mags. Lastly, I never saw the little black popper in the back left side of stage 3. I've never counted my shots from beginning to the end of a stage to make sure it matches the instructions. There's no reason why all these things couldn't have been properly addressed before the buzzer went off.

Oh well.. I went to learn and have new experience, and that's exactly what I got. There wasn't any one thing that was super difficult, but everything together added up to be very challenging for me.

Next step. Find a trainer...