Saw some silly stuff at the pro am today

[Paul-the new guy]

Yeah I thought the same about the calibration... Rules make the "obvious" consistent

[Bryan 45]

Just because the target can be shot with a pistol, doesn't mean that it should. If it's an optional target, why would the range master choose anything but the optimum weapon for the target?

And I had the same conversation with another shooter over ear pro. He shouldered a long gun and dislodged an ear plug because the buttstock caught the cord of his plugs. My only comment was " don't wear corded plugs because that will happen."

The great thing about 3 gun is if a shooter doesn't like the rules, or lack of rules, for a particular match, they can vote with their feet and not attend. I'm like Mark, I have a list of events that I have no desire to attend for one reason or another. But match directors like Andy Horner, Gary Welborn, and Larry Houck will continue to get my match fees. (I'll add the Johnsons to this list if I can get to Rocky Mountain next year.).

Edited August 25, 2014 by Bryan 45

[LoganbillJ]

I dont agree with a reshoot for dislodged eye and ear pro. It is not up to the RO to ensure the shooters equipment is fitted correctly. I do think the RO should tell the shooter to put the eye/ear pro back on. Regardless of what caused the eye/ear pro to come off it needs to be fixed before continuing.

Setting a firearm on the ground safely would not be a DQ of any sort. Assuming the competitor does not go down range of the firearm and stays close to it.

Calibration is tough when it comes to 3 gun specifically pistol. Reason being you have no clue what bunny fart load the competitor is shooting. There is no power factor to establish a base line for calibration.

Our last match a competitor removed his eye pro because they were fogging during a long range rifle portion of a stage. I immediately told him to put them back on before he was even able to fire a shot. ROs need to pay attention to the shooter and what they are doing at all times. That is their job.

Properly fitted had little to do with slipping and falling into a barricade and knocking them off and them rolling 10 feet down a hill... Would you suggest the shooter hand his firearm to the RO to put the hearing or eye protection back or go to a dump barrel? Oh all of the stages had a 100 second par time and it was easy to time out so "ain't nobody got time for dat"

Setting a firearm down safely is still a fire arm on the ground... This seems to be a Very common occurrence in 3 gun. So dropping a gun with out a round in the chamber on the ground is a DQ but setting it down isn't. I can hear a shooter saying I was just putting it down to adjust my poorly fitting ear protection...

Calibration isn't tough at all if a target can be engaged with a range of weapons it should be calibrated to fall with factory ammo from the smallest weapon that can be used on the target. Most often this would be factory 9mm or .223

If the shooter slipped and fell that would be his own fault and would not get a reshoot because he dislodged his ear/eye pro.That does bring up a good question though. How should the stage be handled at that point? Should the RO say stop and stage be scored as shot assuming the shooters eye or ear pro rolled down a hill? Honestly I dont know and am not afraid to admit that. Maybe a more experienced 3 gunner and MD like MarkCO will chime in.

A firearm set safely on the ground to adjust equipment is no different than one safely put in a dump barrel. A dropped gun is way different than an intentional grounding.

As for calibration I do not agree with calibration by the weakest firearm used. The reason for option stages is for the shooter to weigh risk vs. reward.

Edited August 25, 2014 by LoganbillJ

[P.E. Kelley]

Safety is your responsibility first. The RO has limited ability to stop you from doing stupid stuff, most of the time they make calls based

on what you have already done. Yes, RO's can and do stop some stupid or unthinking maneuvers but as I said generally we shooters

make our mistakes too fast to be stopped midstream.

On ear and eye pro...I have not looked through the rules, but I have shot more the a few matches that allow you to safely ground your

gun provided you remain within immediate contact. This is not to allow you to transition guns (OK you could do that at SOF) but to facilitate

an act that needs two hands. (like putting your protective gear back on). As to the many mentions of loosing ear pro and trying to reinstall it with

a pistol in hand YES! it ought to be stopped (and if you point it had your head a DQ for sweeping!) WTF shooter...you have a holster on and THAT is where your handgun goes in this case!!!

I am not playing the man up or macho game here Kids...but damn it! we are playing a game with GUNS! YOU need to know what you are doing

and how to do it SAEFLY as JOB ONE, The RO is there to help YOU do that, but the brunt of that job falls on YOU!

Edited August 25, 2014 by P.E. Kelley

[MarkCO]

I typically work as a CRO or a RM, MDs have a much harder job

In that capacity, it depends on the ruleset. However, most rulesets acknowledge competitor safety as primary and enforce it as such.

For instance, the first two rules for the CTC Midnight Invitational are:

1.1 Eye protection is mandatory for participants, spectators & officials at the event site.
1.2 Ear protection is mandatory for participants, spectators & officials while on or near a stage.

Same or substantially similar for SMM3G, IMGA, RM3G, FNH and most of the ones that have established long term credibility.

USPSA is a mandatory stop and reshoot. per this rule:

2.5.3 If a Range Official notices that a competitor has lost or displaced their eye or hearing protection during a

course of fire, or has commenced a course of fire without them, the Range Official must immediately stop

the competitor who will be required to reshoot the course of fire after the protective devices have been

restored.

So the Pro-Am has this in their rules:

1.6 Eye protection is mandatory for participants, spectators & range personnel at the match site.

1.7 Ear protection is mandatory for participants, spectators & range personnel while on or near a stage of fire.

So based on that, looks like the RO didn't know what mandatory means, did not know the rules, was not paying attention or did not care.

[LoganbillJ]

My apologies Mark. I knew you worked in some capacity at large matches. Regardless, thanks for your hard work and dedication to the sport.

So what is the general consensus on if a shooters eye/ear pro is dislodged during the course of fire? Should a re-shoot be issued, even if it was dislodged by them? Should they be asked to replace it?

I do believe everyone agrees, both forms of protection are requirements to shoot. At the same time I don't see anything that addresses this situation specifically other than USPSA. In the world of Outlaw 3-Gun how should it be handled?

[Bryan 45]

The RO should say "You can not continue until you put your ear pro back on." If the shooter chooses to continue without it, then it's STOP.

No reshoot either way.

[Vlad]

So besides an issue of manliness and "life is hard, get a helmet" what exactly is the issue with stop and reshoot. I get the whole "but it's not my problem" thing, but what is the actual problem with doing so?

[alma]

The RO should say "You can not continue until you put your ear pro back on." If the shooter chooses to continue without it, then it's STOP.

No reshoot either way.

No way. If the RO stops to have a conversation with you on the clock then either it's a reshoot or DQ.

[Jesse Tischauser]

Screw that where do you set your gun when you go to pick up your muffs? Hold it between your legs? Hand it to the RO? If my safety gear goes down during a stage in stopping immediately. It's a safety thing guys quit trying to badasses.

On the last stage of the match I saw a dude ditch his shotgun in a barrel and the entire barrel fell over. The RO stopped him and I assume he was DQ'd but hope he wasn't. Dump barrels need to be secure for safety reasons.

Edited August 25, 2014 by Jesse Tischauser

[Religious Shooter]

So besides an issue of manliness and "life is hard, get a helmet" what exactly is the issue with stop and reshoot. I get the whole "but it's not my problem" thing, but what is the actual problem with doing so?

Do you shoot 3 gun regularly?

A typical USPSA stage can be shot as little as 10-20 seconds? Stage reset times and scoring maybe 30-80 seconds?

Typical 3 gun stage is 60-120 seconds? Reset times and scoring maybe 2-5 minutes?

If you take it to the more extreme stages and matches...3-6 minutes to shoot the stage? Reset times and scoring maybe 5-10 minutes?

In addition to the above, in 3 gun you have maybe have 1-6 minutes needed to stage your shotgun... your rifle... your pistol... etc.

Time for LAMR for a USPSA pistol stage is maybe 1 minute?

If you do shoot 3 gun regularly and pistol only matches... time the above.

Typical 3 gun match here, if we start at 8:30 we leave somewhere between 3:30-6:00.

Typical Pistol only match, if we start at 8:30 we usually leave at 12:00-1:00.

[Brian Payne]

I agree with Andy and Pat on this. If you knock off your ear/eye pro, put them back on. If you are shooting handgun, holster on safe and get it done, if you are shooting long gun, make sure it is on safe and hook it in the crook of your arm and replace your gear and get going. Granted your run may not be as fast as you pictured in your head during your walk through, but YOU let your gear get knocked off, YOU put your gear back in order and get going.

As far as dump barrels, I check them during the walk through so that I have an idea of how gently I need to abandon my weapon without worrying about knocking something over. I am very concious of this because I choose to run a 12 rd tube on my shotgun and this causes some unusual balance problems if you are the type that spears you long gun into abandonment barrels. If I know in advance the barrels aren't staked down very well then I know I need to leave the shotgun sitting gently when I abandon it. I must admit that I haven't shot a match where the barrels weren't staked down securely but I have seen some pretty violent weapon abandonment techniques that allowed a shooter to gain 2/10ths of a second or so.

[mpeltier]

If a competitor dislodges his/her ear or eye protection it is ALWAYS their fault.. wether accidental or intentional the RO has no way of knowing. If the competitor takes another shot before securing said equipment in a safe manor, I believe it should be a stage DQ.

Its a safety rule and should be treated as such, just like other safety infractions.

[Bryan 45]

The RO should say "You can not continue until you put your ear pro back on." If the shooter chooses to continue without it, then it's STOP.

No reshoot either way.

No way. If the RO stops to have a conversation with you on the clock then either it's a reshoot or DQ.

It's not a conversation, it's a directive. The RO is there to make sure the stage is operated safely. If the competitor no longer has ear pro, then he's no longer being safe.

Edited August 25, 2014 by Bryan 45

[Vlad]

So besides an issue of manliness and "life is hard, get a helmet" what exactly is the issue with stop and reshoot. I get the whole "but it's not my problem" thing, but what is the actual problem with doing so?

Do you shoot 3 gun regularly?

Yep, and I RO them and sometime even help put them on. I'm a Renaissance man!

Yes resetting takes longer, but you know what, if I'm paying hundreds of dollars for a match, travel, hotel, ammo, etc, do us all a favor and take the time to reset a stage now and then for a reshoot.

If you are talking about a local match, do as you wish, at a serious match with travel expense and prize tables and all that jazz, we need to make sure it is a shooting competition, not a penis measuring contest about who is the manliest man all men that have walked this man's earth.

If "it takes longer" is the only valid reason for doing a reshoot, I personally don't think that is a very good answer.

Additionally, to all the people that glorify 2 page rule books and make funny noises in the direction of the USPSA rule book, what range commands do your RO's use? Most of the two page rulebooks don't specify any. Can RO #1 say Make Read, RO #2 say "Get it on, cowboy" and RO #3 start the range commands with "Stoke it, stroke it, flip it, stick it"? Probably a bad idea, right? Yet almost everyone falls back to USPSA rules for that for some reason.

I'm the last person to sing the praises of USPSA rule making, I rant about their goofiness all the time, but making simple and insufficient rules almost a badge of pride in opposition to the USPSA rules dictionary is just ill advised.

If you haven't read the latest USPSA multigun rule book, you probably should, it is almost completely compatible with the "outlaw" rule sets, but addresses such meaning less things like range commands and hearing protection so you don't end up with one RO doing it one way and the next RO a different way.

Unless somehow inconsistency is one of those man things I have to go look up.

Edited August 25, 2014 by Vlad

[dcloudy777]

Okay, I RO'd this match, so I'll weigh in with my opinion on each issue respectively:

1. Calibration of a target should be done in a manner that replicates the optimum chance of "success" afforded to the shooter. Just like you shoot from the closest spot to the target inside the shooting area, you should also use the most powerful weapon offered to the shooter to engage that target... it's the exact same principle. I do agree, however, that the calibration method (whatever is used) should be codified in the rule set... I honestly didn't realize that the Pro-Am rules didn't include it until reading this thread and looking it up.

2. Sorry, but once the buzzer goes off, eye/ear protection is on the shooter, just like the rest of his/her equipment. If a pistol falls out of the holster, is that going to get a shooter a reshoot?

If you can get your gear back in order while maintaining safety than by all means, keep shooting. If not, you can stop and declare that you're finished, or you can keep on shooting and get DQ'd.

At LAMR, I always perform a final "check" of the shooter's eyes/ears, but once the buzzer goes off and things start moving, to expect an RO to be able to keep track of that is silly. Some earplugs are practically invisible when inserted, a lot of shooters use plugs under muffs, and the RO is supposed to be focused on the shooter's guns and hands (those are the dangerous things). If I see eyes/ears come off a shooter, I'll tell them, and it's on them to stop entirely, or find a way to fix their problem safely and continue shooting. However, I don't think you can reasonably expect an RO to be able to notice if there's a eye/ear protection issue... that responsibility rests primarily on the the shooter, who is both in control of said safety equipment and in a much better position to realize if it's missing).

[alma]

Thank you for bringing that up. Every time a get a folksy range command I have to turn around to find out of the RO really wants me to start loading or of he is just screwing around.

Since you can get DQed for pulling your gun out of your holster I prefer to have some assurance that whatever the heck you just said means that it's really okay for me to load up.

[alma]

Okay, I RO'd this match, so I'll weigh in with my opinion on each issue respectively:

1. Calibration of a target should be done in a manner that replicates the optimum chance of "success" afforded to the shooter. Just like you shoot from the closest spot to the target inside the shooting area, you should also use the most powerful weapon offered to the shooter to engage that target... it's the exact same principle. I do agree, however, that the calibration method (whatever is used) should be codified in the rule set... I honestly didn't realize that the Pro-Am rules didn't include it until reading this thread and looking it up.

2. Sorry, but once the buzzer goes off, eye/ear protection is on the shooter, just like the rest of his/her equipment. If a pistol falls out of the holster, is that going to get a shooter a reshoot?

If you can get your gear back in order while maintaining safety than by all means, keep shooting. If not, you can stop and declare that you're finished, or you can keep on shooting and get DQ'd.

At LAMR, I always perform a final "check" of the shooter's eyes/ears, but once the buzzer goes off and things start moving, to expect an RO to be able to keep track of that is silly. Some earplugs are practically invisible when inserted, a lot of shooters use plugs under muffs, and the RO is supposed to be focused on the shooter's guns and hands (those are the dangerous things). If I see eyes/ears come off a shooter, I'll tell them, and it's on them to stop entirely, or find a way to fix their problem safely and continue shooting. However, I don't think you can reasonably expect an RO to be able to notice if there's a eye/ear protection issue... that responsibility rests primarily on the the shooter, who is both in control of said safety equipment and in a much better position to realize if it's missing).

Is there an analogy here with squibs? That is a problem with the shooters equipment as well. Should you just let them keep running and if they blow up their gun its their own fault? I guess it should be up to the shooter to stop themselves and declare they are finished if they have a squib.

Edited August 25, 2014 by alma

[Jesse Tischauser]

We had a shooter start a stage fire one shot with his rifle and instantly realize he forgot his ear pro. He stopped himself and fixed his safety gear and restarted the stage.

Should the RO said wait you can't stop. Safe your rifle lay it Down on the ground pointing down range and go her your ears on then come back and shoot cause the timer is still ticking or just man up and shoot the 40 rounds of rifle like a man with no ear pro.

Seriously guys I can't believe anyone would advocate allowing anyone to shoot with ear pro.

[dcloudy777]

Is there an analogy here with squibs? That is a problem with the shooters equipment as well. Should you just let them keep running and if they blow up their gun its their own fault? I guess it should be up to the shooter to stop themselves and declare they are finished if they have a squib.

That falls in the same line of reasoning... of course I'll stop a competitor if I think there is a squib... but an RO can't be expected to be the "first line of defense" against that kind of thing... that has to fall on the shooter.

I don't think an actual squib should ever be grounds for a reshoot. The only thing that should, IMHO, get a competitor a reshoot would be if the RO stops him/her to because of a suspected squib that turns out not to actually be a squib.

[MarkCO]

Then you can add to the mix competitors who will use displacement of ear protection, bumping into the RO, etc. on purpose to try and get a re-shoot, because they are trashing the stage. I have even had peanut gallery person yell "stop" for hearing protection and squib issues, when none were present.

If everyone took responsibility for their actions and acted with integrity, nope, we would not need but a one page rulebook...but that is not the case.

[Camazama]

As a very new 3-gunner, and coming from USPSA, I find the lack of consistency problematic. Without a given set of rules or being briefed on specific situations during the shooters meeting, I would fall back to USPSA rules since I am familiar with those. I know it falls to me to make sure my safety equipment is properly applied, and in most instances, I would simply adjust and continue the stage, but there might also be instances where I would stop myself and look for a reshoot. Example, my eye-pro stays on perfectly in North Dakota weather where it's rarely hot and humid. However, what would happen if I travel to Georgia with high heat and humidity, got really sweating and my eye-pro slid off completely while looking down. I didn't purposefully knock them off and I know I can't continue without them. Without a rule book or specific mentioning during the meeting, my frame of reference is USPSA and I would stop and ask for a reshoot.

IMO, if you want to continue to see new people join the sport, there needs to be some uniformity. Granted, I've only shot at a couple of local matches and the Pro-Am last year, and I had a guidance at that event, but I would hope if something like this were to happen, I could ask for clarification and see a specific rule regarding whether or not I received a reshoot.

I assume for most people with years of 3-gun experience, this debate may seem silly and common-sense should prevail, but new shooters should be taken into account as well. I'm not sure I'd like to continue if I was constantly getting a stage DQ, match DQ, or some other penalty because I didn't know the rules.....because there are no rules. One match I may get a reshoot, another match no reshoot, next match a stage DQ, etc. It's fine if people don't want a large rule book or there are multiple rule books, just let me know which set I'm following. How are new shooters supposed to feel comfortable and learn the game, if everything is at the discretion of the RO/MD?

[Jesse Tischauser]

If you're going to do the ridiculous optional target thing you gotta calibrate steal with the gun that has the least likelihood of knocking the target down at the closest possible location to it. You can't expect shooters to guess which gun will knock it over.

We don't calibrate pistol steal with a .45 when the minimum allowable caliber is a 9mm.

Edited August 25, 2014 by Jesse Tischauser

[CraigS.]

I don't understand why you would use a shotgun to check calibration.

unless the target was small and far away thus giving the power factor advantage the pistol.

[Stlhead]

Steel must fall to score. If you can't knock it down with what you got in your hand you best move on. You can ask for relief after you finish, but best to assume there will be none and roll on.

Loose your ear protection and you continue to shoot you are a dumb ass, fix it on the clock in a safe manner or stop yourself and take the penalties. If you are not smart enough to safely put on a pair of ear muffs or plugs then why should you be allowed to handle a loaded gun in the first place? We do not stop shooters for untied shoes and offer them a reshoot either. It is not the job of the RO to make sure you don't go deaf, it's to try and keep the shooter from shooting himself or someone else first, and to keep the time and call the game second.

There is no need to endlessly debate the call for more or less rules, if you do not like the rules for a match don't go! And don't bitch about the lack of rules at a match when you chose to go to that match knowing full well what rules were and were not going to apply. Arguing about the rules of a match AFTER that match is over is a load of crap.

If 3 gun becomes like USPSA there will be more open slots at matches, because I will certainly be spending my free time doing other things. If you want to play the USPSA game then just shoot USPSA matches, don't try and change the way others play to suit your tastes.

Edited August 25, 2014 by Stlhead