Need help on accuracy for 9mm 1911 Range Officer

[SpankYa]

I just got a new Springfield Armory Range Officer. Loaded it up and shot from a bench with terrible groups from 15yds. I was shooting my usual minor loads I shoot in my CZ SP-01 Shadow:

147gr plated Xtreme

3.3gr Titegroup

1.130" OAL

~0.378" crimp

Out of the RO, the bullets are tumbling, some slightly and some full keyholes.

Shooting 124gr Blazer Brass bears no such problems - everything perfect. Shot my loads out of the CZ and again, no problem.

So... I loaded more ammo.

• Longer OAL @ 1.150 and 1.160
• Increased powder charge to 3.5 and 3.6gr

Things got slightly better but still tumbling... however, when I tried my original loads again the groups got tighter. Instead of eight inch groups, they're about five inch groups @ 15yds.

A friend hypothesized that perhaps the barrel needs to be broken in with harder, jacketed bullets before the plated will work well. I hadn't heard this before, but the more I shoot the RO, the better the groups get.

Any thoughts? Suggestions welcome.

Thanks,

Lester

[Joe D]

I load my RO 9mm out to 1.200". Shoots 160 gr lead very accurately with Solo 1000 and Promo.

[lee blackman]

My bet would be that your getting used to the trigger. I'd also be willing to bet, if you sent it off, had a trigger job done on it, around 2 pounds, as soon as you got it back, your groups would be even tighter.

[SpankYa]

I already worked on the trigger and it's a crisp 3lbs. In any case, the accuracy problem exists with the plated hand loads but not factory jacketed Blazer Brass. I think that eliminates the gun or trigger as the problem. Thoughts?

My bet would be that your getting used to the trigger. I'd also be willing to bet, if you sent it off, had a trigger job done on it, around 2 pounds, as soon as you got it back, your groups would be even tighter.

[bountyhunter]

I already worked on the trigger and it's a crisp 3lbs. In any case, the accuracy problem exists with the plated hand loads but not factory jacketed Blazer Brass. I think that eliminates the gun or trigger as the problem. Thoughts?

I agree. It's ammo.

[Hi-Power Jack]

I'd try another bullet (lighter?), or JHP?

[greyhounder]

I just got a new Springfield Armory Range Officer. Loaded it up and shot from a bench with terrible groups from 15yds. I was shooting my usual minor loads I shoot in my CZ SP-01 Shadow:

147gr plated Xtreme

3.3gr Titegroup

1.130" OAL

~0.378" crimp

Out of the RO, the bullets are tumbling, some slightly and some full keyholes.

Shooting 124gr Blazer Brass bears no such problems - everything perfect. Shot my loads out of the CZ and again, no problem.

So... I loaded more ammo.

• Longer OAL @ 1.150 and 1.160
• Increased powder charge to 3.5 and 3.6gr

Things got slightly better but still tumbling... however, when I tried my original loads again the groups got tighter. Instead of eight inch groups, they're about five inch groups @ 15yds.

A friend hypothesized that perhaps the barrel needs to be broken in with harder, jacketed bullets before the plated will work well. I hadn't heard this before, but the more I shoot the RO, the better the groups get.

Any thoughts? Suggestions welcome.

Thanks,

Lester

Correct me if wrong but doing both did nothing to increase FPS. so still same velocity.

[pxm142]

I have never been able to get 147's to work with Titegroup in any gun except my brother's Sig. They always tumble in anything else.

Edited August 15, 2014 by pxm142

[Guy Neill]

Tumbling is most commonly due to low velocity or inadequate spin (longer bullets need to be spun faster).

It may be that the chamber on the RO is larger, giving less velocity, or, perhaps the bore diameter is larger, with the same results.

Faster velocity will increase the bullet spin, so hotter loads may do better.

Guy

[Bluemooncricket]

I recently purchased a 9mm RO and my experience mirrors yours. The more I shoot it the tighter the groups seem to get. The gun didn't favor the minor load I use in my M&P (5"-6" @ 15 yds) so I began experimenting. The only powder I have is WST so I ordered some Blue Bullet samples and got to work. I tried 115's, 125's, and 147's. The 115's didn't work well (suprising because i had the best luck with 115 Magtech in the beginning) and the 125's were grouping about 4" @ 15 yds. The 147's got me a 2" hole @ 15yds so I'm pretty satisfied with that. I feel like there is more potential to be tapped, but I'm a bit burned out on load development at the moment.....

[jcc7x7]

Old school (which I'm part) says to shoot a couple hundred hot jacketed loads out fo a new gun to "season" the barrel.

Don't know if this really works (but I've usually done it with handloads)

Agree with above about keyholes are usually from low velocity

Shoot it a bunch to get used to it and let the parts run in together then start chrono and accuracy work

[Joe D]

I have never been able to get 147's to work with Titegroup in any gun except my brother's Sig. They always tumble in anything else.

That's interesting. My go to load back when I shot plated bullets was 3.0 gr of TG with a 147 gr Rainier bullet. I got unbelievable groups out of a G34.

[SpankYa]

I have never been able to get 147's to work with Titegroup in any gun except my brother's Sig. They always tumble in anything else.

That's interesting. My go to load back when I shot plated bullets was 3.0 gr of TG with a 147 gr Rainier bullet. I got unbelievable groups out of a G34.

I have never been able to get 147's to work with Titegroup in any gun except my brother's Sig. They always tumble in anything else.

That's interesting. My go to load back when I shot plated bullets was 3.0 gr of TG with a 147 gr Rainier bullet. I got unbelievable groups out of a G34.

I have never been able to get 147's to work with Titegroup in any gun except my brother's Sig. They always tumble in anything else.

That's interesting. My go to load back when I shot plated bullets was 3.0 gr of TG with a 147 gr Rainier bullet. I got unbelievable groups out of a G34.

My stated load works great with my CZ and my Glock 34. No bueno with this 1911.

[SpankYa]

I recently purchased a 9mm RO and my experience mirrors yours. The more I shoot it the tighter the groups seem to get. The gun didn't favor the minor load I use in my M&P (5"-6" @ 15 yds) so I began experimenting. The only powder I have is WST so I ordered some Blue Bullet samples and got to work. I tried 115's, 125's, and 147's. The 115's didn't work well (suprising because i had the best luck with 115 Magtech in the beginning) and the 125's were grouping about 4" @ 15 yds. The 147's got me a 2" hole @ 15yds so I'm pretty satisfied with that. I feel like there is more potential to be tapped, but I'm a bit burned out on load development at the moment.....

Thanks for validating my experience - helps me know I'm not crazy, although this gun is pushing me in that direction...

Lester

[SpankYa]

Some more info. Thanks to a friend who gave me some bullets, I made some new ammo with all of the same specs but replaced the bullet with Montana Gold 147gr CMJ and 124gr FMJ.

Both shot very well with very tight groups from the 9mm 1911. I didn't chrono but assume that with the same quantity of powder, the fps will be equal to or less than the plated bullets. So for some reason, the jacketed bullets shoot much more tightly than the plated. Both shoot equally well from my CZ 75 Shadow.

So the question is if the accuracy will get better as I shoot more rounds out the 1911 or do i have to shoot jacketed out of it to get consistent accuracy???

Lester

[Brooke]

"So the question is if the accuracy will get better as I shoot more rounds out the 1911 or do i have to shoot jacketed out of it to get consistent accuracy???"

In spite of some of the comments here, there is an old saying in engineering that I find mostly true......"things left to themselves seldom get better". I would be getting some advice from the manufacturer about what might be the issue here. The whole premise that you need to "break in" the barrel is just nonsense. What exactly does anyone think that means?

[Postal Bob]

I would guess that the problem is not the bullets directly, but that you're over crimping the plated bullets. Too tight a crimp with a plated bullet will damage the plating, and cause eractic accuracy. The MG will not get damaged if you over crimped them a little. Pull the heads off one of you're loaded plated rounds. If there's any ring or indentation on the bullet, then you're over crimping and damaging the bullet.

[R.Elliott]

Yup, it's almost always a crimp issue. All you need is to remove the case bell after bullet seating. Let case drag do the rest.

Over-crimping plated bullets causes the material to be stretched or torn as the bullet exits the case. The now exposed lead surface of the bullets core can melt {depending on velocity and alloy} as it transitions the bore, leaving you with a nice, flying gumball.

[robport]

I have to admit that I was reading this thread earlier and thinking that it's crap, that a bullet can't be that far off when it takes off out of a 5 inch barrel with enough speed that it isn't dropping.

I was wrong.

I took my new RIA TCM 22 with the 9mm barrel and was playing with the sights today.

I started using a very stable 124gr bullet recipe using PB, that I have been using pretty successfully in my SA XDM 4.5. It wasn't great, but was plenty good enough practice ammo.

I was shooting all over the place. At 10 meters, I was up to 4.5 inches to the left of the center of the target (slowfire) with a dispersion of about 6 inches.

I switched to Winchester White box and started putting them in the X of the target consistently.

I'm convinced, except I'm not using any crimp. They are plated 124 gr extreme bullets. I guess I need to start concentrating on fixing my reloads.

[SpankYa]

I would guess that the problem is not the bullets directly, but that you're over crimping the plated bullets. Too tight a crimp with a plated bullet will damage the plating, and cause eractic accuracy. The MG will not get damaged if you over crimped them a little. Pull the heads off one of you're loaded plated rounds. If there's any ring or indentation on the bullet, then you're over crimping and damaging the bullet.

I wish it was the crimp, then I could fix it. It's not. I've pulled the bullets and that's not the problem. The crimp is measuring .378; any less and they won't plunk in the case gauge.

Additionally, again, these same rounds shoot very well from my CZ.

[Bluemooncricket]

I would guess that the problem is not the bullets directly, but that you're over crimping the plated bullets. Too tight a crimp with a plated bullet will damage the plating, and cause eractic accuracy. The MG will not get damaged if you over crimped them a little. Pull the heads off one of you're loaded plated rounds. If there's any ring or indentation on the bullet, then you're over crimping and damaging the bullet.

I wish it was the crimp, then I could fix it. It's not. I've pulled the bullets and that's not the problem. The crimp is measuring .378; any less and they won't plunk in the case gauge.

Additionally, again, these same rounds shoot very well from my CZ.

Perhaps it has something to do with the jump from freebore to rifling. If your RO is like mine it has a very long throat. I've never owned or inspected a CZ but it is my understanding that they have shorter throats. Just a thought...

[Joe D]

Get some of these and load them long. http://www.xtremebullets.com/9mm-165-RN-p/xc9mm-165rn-b0500.htm

[SpankYa]

I would guess that the problem is not the bullets directly, but that you're over crimping the plated bullets. Too tight a crimp with a plated bullet will damage the plating, and cause eractic accuracy. The MG will not get damaged if you over crimped them a little. Pull the heads off one of you're loaded plated rounds. If there's any ring or indentation on the bullet, then you're over crimping and damaging the bullet.

I wish it was the crimp, then I could fix it. It's not. I've pulled the bullets and that's not the problem. The crimp is measuring .378; any less and they won't plunk in the case gauge.

Additionally, again, these same rounds shoot very well from my CZ.

Perhaps it has something to do with the jump from freebore to rifling. If your RO is like mine it has a very long throat. I've never owned or inspected a CZ but it is my understanding that they have shorter throats. Just a thought...

That's an idea. I am loading to 1.160" and they (surprisingly) plunk into both the 1911 and the CZ. JoeD suggested getting the 165gr and loading longer. I think that would have a negative effect on the velocity and thus introduce more likelihood for tumbling. I think there's enough bullet on my 147gr to try loading even longer than 1.160" but that means they won't drop into the CZ anymore.

I could probably try 1.180", but the factory Blazer Brass ammo that shoots very well from the gun is only 1.150".

Thanks

[SpankYa]

Get some of these and load them long. http://www.xtremebullets.com/9mm-165-RN-p/xc9mm-165rn-b0500.htm

Would that not drop velocity and thus increase tumbling?

[Bluemooncricket]

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="SpankYa" data-cid="2227649" data-time="1408760046"><p><p><blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Bluemooncricket" data-cid="2227624" data-time="1408758456"><p> <blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="SpankYa" data-cid="2227599" data-time="1408755937">The longer oal loads would also most likely require the use of 38 Super mags. I have loaded a few 124 gr Rainier with poor results but I honestly haven't had time to give to that load any attention. I've got 1k of them so sooner or later I'll put some effort into development. I will happily report my findings when that is done. Bare in mind I only have WST to work with though.