re-shoot for being hit with a frag

[Paul-the new guy]

During a par time steel match, a shooter was hit in the nose by a jacket fragment. It stunned the shooter, it was bleeding and he said he couldn't see for a minute because his eyes were watering. He wanted a reshoot. Yes or no? After the fact it was determined a pretty good size piece of jacket was actually in the tip of his nose...

[ChuckS]

Yup...

8.6.4 In the event that inadvertent contact from the Range Officer or another external influence has interfered with the competitor during a course of fire, the Range Officer may offer the competitor a reshoot of the course of fire. The competitor must accept or decline the offer prior to seeing either the time or the score from the initial attempt. However, in the event that the competitor commits a safety infraction during any such interference, the provisions of Section 10.3 may still apply.

[Vlad]

So .. I guess we need to define external influence. A couple of years ago, I had the strangest jam. Mid-stage, I was shooting at lay-down target about 4-5 yards away and my gun jams. I look at and I start laughing, as what I see is a piece of gravel stuck in the ejection port. The best we could figure it out was that the rounds hitting behind the laydown target hit the pit floor gravel, which launched itself in some way or another at my gun and landed in my ejection port while the gun was cycling. We are not talking crud in my mag kinda gravel, we are talking 1/3-1/2" rock.

I cleared it and finished the stage trying to not pass out laughing.

Now .. is that an external influence? Well .. I sure as hell didn't spit rocks at my gun, but on the other hand the rock was doing nothing offensive, laying there in the sun until I did a drive by on it and its friends at which point it angrily reciprocated. Without my action there would have been no rock. Without the action of the shooter in the OP there would have been no splatter.

I don't have a strong opinion on this, so I can see it either way, but I've always read that as "Buddy threw a can of Monster at his head" or "Deaf deer wondered over the berm" sort of external influence, not the reaction of the environment to the shooters actions.

[Jaxshooter]

With a piece of jacket material still in his nose I would definitely call that external influence. I would give the competitor a reshoot.

[GrumpyOne]

Shooting a target through a port, the brass bounces off the port wall, and back into the eiection port of the gun...outside interference? BTW, this happened to me soon after I had started shooting USPSA....

[ss+P]

I would give you all re-shoots, but I am not an RO,MD or otherwise.

Would the shooter have to ask for a re-shoot in any of these instances or does the RO have to ask or either way you could get one.

[D.Hayden]

I don't care what you call it.. but it's a health/safety issue - I'd stop him asap and offer the reshoot after he's been checked out. You can call it range officer interference if you'd like

Something the competitor did to their gun, blocked with a rock/stick, etc.. they stay on the clock

[Sarge]

I would give you all re-shoots, but I am not an RO,MD or otherwise.

Would the shooter have to ask for a re-shoot in any of these instances or does the RO have to ask or either way you could get one.

A shooter can ask for a reshoot all he wants but reshoots work one of two ways. Either it is a mandatory reshoot. OR the RO asks the shooter if he wants a reshoot.

[Sarge]

I don't care what you call it.. but it's a health/safety issue - I'd stop him asap and offer the reshoot after he's been checked out. You can call it range officer interference if you'd like

Something the competitor did to their gun, blocked with a rock/stick, etc.. they stay on the clock

I tend to agree but some very unusual things can happen on a range. Brass coming off of a wall? I have seen that more than a few times and it has always resulted in no reshoot. Brass came from the gun so it would be easy to say it's not an outside influence? But a piece of gravel in a gun could be devastating to the gun and shooter. If I see it as an RO and the shooter tries to shake it loose and it stays in the chamber I would most likely stop him I guess. I don't like making bad calls and I don't like reshoots but I mostly don't want to see somebody get hurt. And the gravel certainly came from the outside of the gun so it's an external influence.

I love these unusual rules discussions! Such an awesome learning tool if you ask me.

[D.Hayden]

I don't care what you call it.. but it's a health/safety issue - I'd stop him asap and offer the reshoot after he's been checked out. You can call it range officer interference if you'd like

Something the competitor did to their gun, blocked with a rock/stick, etc.. they stay on the clock

I tend to agree but some very unusual things can happen on a range. Brass coming off of a wall? I have seen that more than a few times and it has always resulted in no reshoot. Brass came from the gun so it would be easy to say it's not an outside influence? But a piece of gravel in a gun could be devastating to the gun and shooter. If I see it as an RO and the shooter tries to shake it loose and it stays in the chamber I would most likely stop him I guess. I don't like making bad calls and I don't like reshoots but I mostly don't want to see somebody get hurt. And the gravel certainly came from the outside of the gun so it's an external influence.

I love these unusual rules discussions! Such an awesome learning tool if you ask me.

I quite agree if it's a safety issue..

[Paul-the new guy]

The RO didn't offer the reshoot and he declined the shooters request. The range office did ask if he was ok when he paused... I told him that he should have gotten a reshoot if nothing else because the RO isn't supposed to be asking you questions on the clock...

[Vlad]

I think is people are bleeding you stop them, sure. The questions is, is it a reshoot? Lets look at it a different way, shooter runs too fast, slips and eats a face-full of gravel. He does this without breaking the 180, pointing the gun at themselves or anything else. The are bleeding from a few places. Is it a reshoot?

I mean sure, as an RO I'll stop them to make sure they are ok and because I've stopped them they get a reshoot, but lets say this happens at the nationals, and what could have been a trashed stage ends up winning the Cadillac. Now what?

[alecmc]

The sun was in my eyes

[Sarge]

I should have clarified earlier that I would stop a shooter who is obviously injured and bleeding to the point he stops and shakes his head or wipes the blood out of his eyes or whatever. Faces and noses tend to bleed a lot so you don't know if it's a pin prick or a serious laceration until you look at it.

I think the falling depends on the shooter. I hate saying that because it can lead to arguments about double standards etc. But what I am saying is if a pretty good shooter is hauling ass, falls, tears up his knees and elbows but jumps up blazing away without skipping a beat then no harm no foul. But if a junior shooter(little kid) falls and starts crying or looking around for mommy then I stop him/her. If it's an old guy/gal and they seem shaken up from hitting their head and sort of just lay there a few seconds then I stop them too. Both of those cases are extreme I know but I hope the idea comes across.

[Sarge]

The sun was in my eyes

Didn't this come up at a major match in the last few years? It was either the first squad or the last squad that was looking directly into the sun on a stage that was otherwise good to go all the rest of the day? Don't know what ever came of it but I do remember reading about it. I think. lol

[bishop414]

Not to hijack, but take these examples to the clock RO. What is the call if the clock RO takes a dive and can't keep up with the shooter, or a bad frag?

[Sarge]

Not to hijack, but take these examples to the clock RO. What is the call if the clock RO takes a dive and can't keep up with the shooter, or a bad frag?

If I am running a shooter and fall to the point I can't keep eyes on the shooter or get up to keep control of him I stop him and order a reshoot. For one thing it's a safety issue and for another the timer could have been knocked hard enough to be way out of whack.

[Vlad]

I think the falling depends on the shooter. I hate saying that because it can lead to arguments about double standards etc. But what I am saying is if a pretty good shooter is hauling ass, falls, tears up his knees and elbows but jumps up blazing away without skipping a beat then no harm no foul. But if a junior shooter(little kid) falls and starts crying or looking around for mommy then I stop him/her. If it's an old guy/gal and they seem shaken up from hitting their head and sort of just lay there a few seconds then I stop them too. Both of those cases are extreme I know but I hope the idea comes across.

You know what I'm gonna say next, right? If I'm having a bad stages I should just trip, look stunned for a bit and get a reshoot?

BTW, I don't disagree with you, I'm just playing devils advocate.

[CHA-LEE]

So..... the first sentence states "During a par time steel match..." This does not sound like a sanctioned USPSA match. If its not a sanctioned USPSA match then who cares what rules are used? USPSA rules apply to USPSA sanctioned matches.

[Paul-the new guy]

The match was an outlaw match but was using all of the rules from USPSA.

[CHA-LEE]

Outlaw match + USPSA Rules = Who cares how the rules are enforced? Its an outlaw match and you can do or interpret how to enforce the rules or not enforce the rules however the match staff wants.

Bantering about how USPSA Rules should or shouldn't be enforced at a non-USPSA sanctioned "Outlaw" match is a waste of everyone's time. When they run an official USPSA sanctioned match then we can talk about proper rules enforcement. Until that happens its just a waste of time to talk about it.

[Sarge]

I think the falling depends on the shooter. I hate saying that because it can lead to arguments about double standards etc. But what I am saying is if a pretty good shooter is hauling ass, falls, tears up his knees and elbows but jumps up blazing away without skipping a beat then no harm no foul. But if a junior shooter(little kid) falls and starts crying or looking around for mommy then I stop him/her. If it's an old guy/gal and they seem shaken up from hitting their head and sort of just lay there a few seconds then I stop them too. Both of those cases are extreme I know but I hope the idea comes across.

You know what I'm gonna say next, right? If I'm having a bad stages I should just trip, look stunned for a bit and get a reshoot?

BTW, I don't disagree with you, I'm just playing devils advocate.

I tried to not bring the cheating aspect into it but I know full well it would most likely happen just as you said. I guess all we can do in that case is carry on as if they are not cheating and carry on for the greater good of those who play fair.

Outlaw match + USPSA Rules = Who cares how the rules are enforced? Its an outlaw match and you can do or interpret how to enforce the rules or not enforce the rules however the match staff wants.

Bantering about how USPSA Rules should or shouldn't be enforced at a non-USPSA sanctioned "Outlaw" match is a waste of everyone's time. When they run an official USPSA sanctioned match then we can talk about proper rules enforcement. Until that happens its just a waste of time to talk about it.

I think we have since moved on from the EXACT scenario the OP brought up. Sure, we are talking about sanctioned matches at this point. But just because a match is an outlaw match doesn't mean there are no rules involved. They shoot a local steel match at my club that near as I can tell follows no organized rules from any particular shooting sport but they still DQ people for breaking the common rules most shooting sports adhere to. They also stop shooters for safety issues and let them reshoot. Talking about rules that can easily apply to our game is never a waste of time in my opinion.

[CHA-LEE]

Sarge> You are further ingraining the point I am trying to make. You stated your opinion and I stated my opinion. Who's opinion is more valid than the others in this scenario of an unsanctioned non-USPSA match? It is 100% subjective and totally up to the match staff of the non-sanctioned match to make the determination as to how whatever rules they want to follow are deployed and enforced.. What you or I think of the situation or how rules should be applied is irrelevant in this situation.

The Original Poster needs to ask the match staff of the outlaw match in how this situation should be handled. Not post up the question in the "USPSA/IPSC Rules" section of the forum expecting other people who don't even attend the match much less run it to provide an interpretation of how rules should be enforced at an outlaw match.

[jester121]

Good lord, maybe the OP can edit his post to say "while shooting a 32-round USPSA course of fire with steel...."

The scoring system of the match has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion of the rules question, really.

[pjb45]

Holy Moly.

External influence.

Numerous times at Nationals both Vegas and St. George the sun interfered with the shooter's ability to actually see the targets. No Reshoot was offered.

Numerous times at Vegas' Nationals splatter hit bystanders and shooters alike. No Reshoot was offered.

Swamp water at Tulsa Mud Nationals-external influence. No Reshoot was offered.

Trip or fall down-too bad-No Reshoot.

But in this instance the decision is mute-not a USPSA event.