Warning for moving with finger on the trigger - Rules Question

[swhiteh3]

At the recent Virginia / Maryland sectional (Bay #2, Cognus), at the end of a stage, I got a warning for moving while keeping my finger on the trigger. At the time, I was coming off a stage, I realized I was not being penalized, and the RO was being very polite, and I had no reason not to be exceptionally polite back to him, so I did not argue it with him. I went back, watched the video, and that brought up a rules question.

What had happened was this.... After finishing an array of targets, I rotated my body to face the next target, only to be reminded that the target was behind a barrier (one that you could see through, which is why my eyes locked on it and I brought the gun to it, even though it could not be shot from where I was at). It was about two steps to the position where I could shoot it, so I essentially held a sight picture as I closed the distance. My finger was indeed on the trigger, but I had the gun in my line of sight, arms extended, two-hand grip the entire time. From the video it looks like I *MAY* have lost the sight picture for a moment then regained it, but I clearly had a sight picture on that target most of the time.

(I have the video, 42MB, if someone can host it)

From my interpretation of 8.5.1, I would think this movement with my finger on the trigger was legal.....

8.5.1 Except when the competitor is actually aiming of shooting at targets, all movement (see Appendix A3) must be accomplished with the fingers visibly outside the trigger guard and the safety should be engaged. The handgun must be pointed in a safe direction.

[Racinready300ex]

I don't know the rules to well, but I think if the target is behind a wall you can't techincally aim at it even if you can see it through the wall. So the finger must be off the trigger.

[Sarge]

I don't know the rules to well, but I think if the target is behind a wall you can't techincally aim at it even if you can see it through the wall. So the finger must be off the trigger.

You are correct. Walls are only see through to make things safer, etc. Best way to think of it is, "If that wall were solid there is no way you could engage through it or aim at a target".

The shooter got a valid warning and is lucky another RO who may not believe in warnings wasn't running him.

[Nik Habicht]

I don't know the rules to well, but I think if the target is behind a wall you can't techincally aim at it even if you can see it through the wall. So the finger must be off the trigger.

You are correct. Walls are only see through to make things safer, etc. Best way to think of it is, "If that wall were solid there is no way you could engage through it or aim at a target".

The shooter got a valid warning and is lucky another RO who may not believe in warnings wasn't running him.

I don't believe in warnings -- if I've definitely seen the violation......

Had I been ROing the OP, it's possible that I might have gotten a brief glimpse, that would have left me wondering -- in which case I probably would have said something at the end of the stage.....

Probably along the lines of -- I'm not positive, but I think I got a glimpse of your finger on the trigger, while you were moving between targets -- you may want to self-monitor for that. Had i been positive, this would be a different conversation.....

[seanc]

I am familiar with the finger off the trigger, but engaging the safety was one I was not aware of.

Movement is defined as taking more than 1 step in any direction.

Honest question, is everyone engaging safeties when taking 2 steps?

I've only ever shot striker pistols or revolvers in a match, so this was never at question for me personally.

[MarkCO]

I agree with Nik. But you had better be positive for the DQ. I have had ROs try to DQ shooters for this violation and when pressed, they were not sure. I had a pretty stern conversation with an RO who had DQ'd a shooter for this. The next day, the shooter sent me the video...finger was clearly off the trigger.

If the gun stays up and there is a shuffle or one or two steps, I don't get too concerned. If the gun comes down, it had better be off.

I wish it was not a gray area, but it is one of the ones that is a bit open to interpretation and significantly influenced by the ROs shooting skill and ROing experience.

[High Lord Gomer]

The key word in the part about the safety is should. That is not the same as must. Should merely is a suggestion; Must is a mandate.

[blueeyedme]

I don't believe in warnings - at the same time I would not DQ unless I was 100% sure of what I have seen. In my experience, finger on trigger is a very difficult call for the timer RO who is behind or on the strong side of the shooter. For the clipboard RO on the weak side it is much more obvious. If I thought 'maybe' the finger was a little close to the trigger I might say something after I called the range clear. More of an advisory than a warning.

Edited July 16, 2014 by blueeyedme

[pjb45]

I believe in warnings especially for newer shooters. Typically, I would wait until the stage is completed then quietly talk with the shooter.

[motosapiens]

I don't know the rules to well, but I think if the target is behind a wall you can't techincally aim at it even if you can see it through the wall. So the finger must be off the trigger.

You are correct. Walls are only see through to make things safer, etc. Best way to think of it is, "If that wall were solid there is no way you could engage through it or aim at a target".

The shooter got a valid warning and is lucky another RO who may not believe in warnings wasn't running him.

Interesting viewpoint. Is this just an opinion? or is there an nroi ruling/clarification to back it up. Seems like most instructors teach that you should have the gun up and be aiming before the target becomes available, all the more so if you can see it through a mesh wall.

The only times I've seen this called it was pretty blatant. I tend to think that if you've got the gun up and your looking through the sights in the direction of targets, you are aiming. If the gun is down, you should have your finger off the trigger when moving.

Regarding warnings, I totally believe in them. If i'm not certain of something, or if it was very close, I'll definitely let the shooter know afterwards. I know a few shooters may not appreciate that, but most do.

[bikerburgess]

Yes it was in one of the last Front Sights Dnroi said walls can't be aimed through so DQ for moving with finger in trigger guard and not a ming at a target

[racerba]

If you are up on aim and pointing in the general direction of a target, regardless of whether you see the target or not, it's legal. You could be pointing at a wall and not see the target because you miss calculated and are a step away (or two) from seeing the target. In the OP, he did see the target, just could not legally shoot at it. He still aimed at the target while he moved two steps to get a legal (better) shot at it.

[blueeyedme]

I believe in warnings especially for newer shooters. Typically, I would wait until the stage is completed then quietly talk with the shooter.

Coaching is a great thing at a Level 1 club match. However, you are not doing a new shooter any favors by giving them a pass on a safety violation.

[motosapiens]

Yes it was in one of the last Front Sights Dnroi said walls can't be aimed through so DQ for moving with finger in trigger guard and not a ming at a target

Thanks. I think I remember something about that. I'll go look it up.

Edited July 16, 2014 by motosapiens

[motosapiens]

I believe in warnings especially for newer shooters. Typically, I would wait until the stage is completed then quietly talk with the shooter.

Coaching is a great thing at a Level 1 club match. However, you are not doing a new shooter any favors by giving them a pass on a safety violation.

I don't think anyone is suggesting giving anyone a pass, but if you aren't sure enough to call a dq, or if it was very close but not a dq, it makes sense to me to let someone know about it so they can fix it and be safer in the future.

[jester121]

The most interesting part of this thread for me is the number of ROs referring to "finger was off the trigger" and "a little close to the trigger".

The rule is very clear -- "...all movement (see Appendix A3) must be accomplished with the fingers visibly outside the trigger guard..."

Doesn't say anything about "touching the trigger" or "away from the trigger".

Visibly outside the trigger guard.

[blueeyedme]

I believe in warnings especially for newer shooters. Typically, I would wait until the stage is completed then quietly talk with the shooter.

Coaching is a great thing at a Level 1 club match. However, you are not doing a new shooter any favors by giving them a pass on a safety violation.

I don't think anyone is suggesting giving anyone a pass, but if you aren't sure enough to call a dq, or if it was very close but not a dq, it makes sense to me to let someone know about it so they can fix it and be safer in the future.

Agreed. If you saw it, it's a DQ. If you are unsure, then coach away.

Edited July 16, 2014 by blueeyedme

[Flatland Shooter]

The most interesting part of this thread for me is the number of ROs referring to "finger was off the trigger" and "a little close to the trigger".

The rule is very clear -- "...all movement (see Appendix A3) must be accomplished with the fingers visibly outside the trigger guard..."

Doesn't say anything about "touching the trigger" or "away from the trigger".

Visibly outside the trigger guard.

It also don't say anything about issuing warnings. If the RO misses something and a fellow shooter or friend in the squad wants to point it out ("Like whoa, that was a little too close on the 180" or "better move that finger a little further from the trigger when you move"), so be it. But its not the place of the RO to issue warnings. Did they DQ or not?

Nothing messes with the competitor's head more than some RO giving out warnings for something that they only thought may have happened.

Bill

[motosapiens]

It also don't say anything about issuing warnings. If the RO misses something and a fellow shooter or friend in the squad wants to point it out ("Like whoa, that was a little too close on the 180" or "better move that finger a little further from the trigger when you move"), so be it. But its not the place of the RO to issue warnings. Did they DQ or not?

Nothing messes with the competitor's head more than some RO giving out warnings for something that they only thought may have happened.

Bill

If it doesn't say anything about issuing warnings, then it doesn't say I can't or shouldn't issue them, so I do so when it's appropriate.

I can think of a LOT of things that would mess with a competitor's head more than chatting with them after their run and letting them know they were very close to a dq but I just couldn't see well enough from my position to call it.

[lcs]

The most interesting part of this thread for me is the number of ROs referring to "finger was off the trigger" and "a little close to the trigger".

The rule is very clear -- "...all movement (see Appendix A3) must be accomplished with the fingers visibly outside the trigger guard..."

Doesn't say anything about "touching the trigger" or "away from the trigger".

Visibly outside the trigger guard.

Exactly!

[Flatland Shooter]

It also don't say anything about issuing warnings. If the RO misses something and a fellow shooter or friend in the squad wants to point it out ("Like whoa, that was a little too close on the 180" or "better move that finger a little further from the trigger when you move"), so be it. But its not the place of the RO to issue warnings. Did they DQ or not?

Nothing messes with the competitor's head more than some RO giving out warnings for something that they only thought may have happened.

Bill

If it doesn't say anything about issuing warnings, then it doesn't say I can't or shouldn't issue them, so I do so when it's appropriate.

I can think of a LOT of things that would mess with a competitor's head more than chatting with them after their run and letting them know they were very close to a dq but I just couldn't see well enough from my position to call it.

Why would it be helpful to a shooter to tell them they were close to a DQ? If the stage calls for me to swing my gun 175 degrees to the right, I did what was necessary and I did not commit a DQable offense.

Should the RO take the time to "coach" me after the stage or should they do their job and get ready for the next shooter?

I guess its easier to mess with my head than it is to others.

I've had RO's advise I was close to the 180 and later reviewed video that proved them wrong.

I make a good (for me) run and then get hit with a "helpful RO warning". I did not appreciate the comments and it did mess with my head. Others have told me the same.

So when I RO, its by the book.

[lcs]

If you are up on aim and pointing in the general direction of a target, regardless of whether you see the target or not, it's legal. You could be pointing at a wall and not see the target because you miss calculated and are a step away (or two) from seeing the target. In the OP, he did see the target, just could not legally shoot at it. He still aimed at the target while he moved two steps to get a legal (better) shot at it.

Using mesh does not change the definition of a

wall.

Two steps behind a wall without a legal target to aim at and your finger is in the trigger guard- it is a DQ.

[RadarTech]

I look at this this way---

IF it is a new shooter, they sometimes have not realized they did X or Y...

and many times I hear " I didn't realize that" or "Was I that close that it concerned you?"

THAT is why I would give a quiet coaching lesson AFTER they shoot...

NO I will not yell FINGER.. or MUZZLE.......

[jester121]

Should the RO take the time to "coach" me after the stage or should they do their job and get ready for the next shooter?

The good ones can do both.

[bajaholic]

I am one of the guilty ones for having moved with my finger on the trigger. (other things too, but they are for a different thread) I am a new shooter, not that this is an excuse but rather a clarification. I appreciate and listen to the critiques I get when shooting. It is how I will learn to be better. I had no idea I had my finger still on the trigger, I was concentrating on everything else and it was pointed out to me.

It was a warning in a very instructive way, not just a bunch of attitude with a DQ pending. I thanked the RO and learned another valuable lesson and went home and practiced not to let it happen again.

I think there is a fine line between learning, being constructive and being just by the rules or else. To me.... Learning is the key that is how I will get better. I also understand this is why we practice and to not make the same mistake twice or there is ramifications. I have not shot any Regional or National events yet, rather just local, IMHO this is where the training begins, and by the time you get to a Large event, the bugs should be worked out. I am thankful, there has be a tiered level of enforcement vs learning/instruction to motivate me to learn.