USPSA 3-Gun Nationals 2005

[9x45]

That is my question also... Is USPSA Multi-Gun ready to go head to head with SMM 3-Gun? And RM 3G and DPMS TriChallenge?

[ErikW]

Huh? That would be lame, scheduling the US3G on the same date as one of the other big 3 gun matches in the U.S. Nobody mentioned a scheduling conflict, or did I miss something?

[Zak Smith]

Let's just say mid to late August is a busy time for non USPSA matches.

[scottmilk9]

i would like to see them go head to head. i know where i'd be!!

[tewlman]

i had a great time in Vegas! The match was awesome, the weather was mostly great (the wind did get a little crazy), and we had an excellent squad (17). i had some equipment problems and seemed to have suffered a large number of mikes but still a super weekend.

thanks to all that bought some of my stuff in the vendor tent, i hope it serves you well.

next up:

ky state 3 gun

ft benning

cant wait, hope to see you all there.

steve

Progressive machine and tool

[Religious Shooter]

i would like to see them go head to head.  i know where i'd be!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In his speech during the awards ceremonies Voit gave this whole spiel how we ("we" as in the big matches --- and withstanding KurtM's opinion that the Nationals isn't a big match) are splitting up the shooters and he wanted input on the He-Man equipment rules so 1) USPSA can have a basis on the rules and 2) he can hopefully use it to standardize the division with the rest of the big matches.

That doesn't sound like USPSA wants to go "head to head" with the other matches. I am sorry... but the spin you guys are putting on this is ugly.

... and with all due respect, but the date hasn't been confirmed. The Nationals just happened. Frankly I think the info is wrong.

Going "head to head" would diminish both matches. A quick look at the roster and it looks like 25-40% of the shooters shot both matches. There is even a higher percentage with the better shooters.

Why would you like them to go head to head? Don't you want to measure yourself against the best?

[Zak Smith]

I am sorry... but the spin you guys are putting on this is ugly.

That is why I posted a question about clarifying the intent.

Let's say the dates don't overlap and it is mechanically possible to shoot both. It is hard for people who work for a living to shoot two major matches in a single month, to say nothing of back to back matches 1400 miles apart.

If the posted info is correct, the conclusion is inescapable. The fallout from such a decision is likewise inevitable (as already witnessed).

[SVI4ME]

Had a great time this last weekend. Shot like S**T but had fun. Only one (expletive deleted) RO this match but he is always a (expletive deleted)!! DQ'd a guy in our squad that maybe should have been warned for a 180 violation since he went 179.99 degrees, but not DQ'd. Just a couple of squad members opinions. But you know what they say about opinions !!

Weather held out for us and had a smooth trip home this morning.

Ready for Bend next year after I confirm my 300 + yard rifle shots and 25+ yard slug shots. Lots of great people that I have not seen in a while and some mugs I see regularly too........

R

Edited October 18, 2005 by kellyn

[Religious Shooter]

I am sorry... but the spin you guys are putting on this is ugly.

That is why I posted a question about clarifying the intent.

Let's say the dates don't overlap and it is mechanically possible to shoot both. It is hard for people who work for a living to shoot two major matches in a single month, to say nothing of back to back matches 1400 miles apart.

If the posted info is correct, the conclusion is inescapable. The fallout from such a decision is likewise inevitable (as already witnessed).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The information could be wrong. Or the information could be right.

Assuming that the info is correct, USPSA may have chosen that date because the two other nationals either need to be on other months other than August and/or August is the month that the hosting club chose due to the availability of the range and/or when the most likely favoreable weather conditions can be had.

And there maybe a bazillion other reasons. But for some reason you guys spun it to be a USPSA vs. RM3G/DPMS/etc. thing...

So is the intent to compete against RM3G ?

That is my question also... Is USPSA Multi-Gun ready to go head to head with SMM 3-Gun? And RM 3G and DPMS TriChallenge?

i would like to see them go head to head. i know where i'd be!!

Of all the other probable reasons you guys chose this USPSA vs. XXX ugliness.

... but hey. Have at it. Spin away. We can have a USPSA vs. IDPA type of silliness like they have in the pistol sections.

[Zak Smith]

In summary, R.S. does not know the answer.

It would be illuminating to hear from someone who does.

[Religious Shooter]

I personally dont like the USPSA 3 gun rules, thats why i dont go to many of them. I know your trying not to compare the two, but USPSA needs to make some rule changes on 3 gun.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Would you care to share with us what you think needs to be changed?

Measuring myself against the best isnt why Im in the sport,  i challenge myself against my own skill level and try to become better.

Fair enough.

[Religious Shooter]

In summary, R.S. does not know the answer.

It would be illuminating to hear from someone who does.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nice.

[Hey QuicksDraw!]

Just got home and very tired. It was great to see everyone. Got to meet George. Hey George. I had a great time but I shot poorly. I made a lot of mental mistakes and never got in gear. I think my gears are stripped.

I chrono'ed at 165.6 .

Edited October 18, 2005 by Hey QuicksDraw!

[Religious Shooter]

I chrono'ed at 165.6 .

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have you beat. I chronoed at 165.5.

They had to use all 7 rounds. I've never felt such relief after the RO said that "165.5".

[George]

Point 1: I hear with good authority that the 2005 US3G will be in Bend on the COSSA range.

Point 2: What I hear from folks involved is that August is being considered, but that no date has been set because they are also looking at the pistol nationals requirements before they run down any specific path yet.

This says to me that nothing is a problem yet. I believe the folks involved here are smart enough to know that it wouldn't be wise be on top of, or even the weekend before the other events. But IMO, the first weekend of August, or even the last weekend of July would be fine. I would go to both in a flash if they were within 2-3 weeks. I am not speaking of the DPMS trigun here, just the RM3G, which I consider the best straightup 3 gun match going because of the terrain and the stage design style.

The US3G grew up greatly this year and 228 folks had a great time shooting. This is a substantial shooter base. I think the hue and cry may not be warranted and that USPSA 3gun/multigun is a good thing. If gear and division recognition were clarified to be as standard as possible, we could all play all games, all of the time with the set of gear we choose. Win, Win Win if the gear requirements are cross platform. No competition as much as complement if some coordination is brought to the table. At the moment Open, Tac and Limited are pretty much standard with the exception of some optic requirement thingamjiggy somewhere ;-) HM is what needs to get nailed down. We do that before it gets outs hand and we are good to go :-)

One thing to keep in mind is that summer in general and late July through late August specifically is great time for anyone who takes a normal vacation scenario, or shool admin, teachers and students. If two to three of the premiere matches can happen over a 4-6 week period in the peak work offtime of the year for most folks, then it's a potentially optimum situation rather than a troubling one IMO :-)

Stewart, it was great meeting you too :-) I hear ya on the shot poorly thing. I earned all three of my bad stages ;-)

--

Regards,

Edited October 18, 2005 by George

[wgnoyes]

A guy would think that the folks who own the software would be able to...use it.

Thanks, as usual, for that constructive feedback, Alex! The crew doing the stats for this match stepped up to do the first-ever major *USPSA* match under the experimental-to-them San Angelo scoring. In doing so, yes, they used the USPSA software, but they also had to invent processes for handling the scorecards, assessing the "additional penalty points" for minor-firearms, providing appropriate levels of process control for verification and audit-trail, etc, etc.

...

Bruce

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

hehehe... that was a good one!

[kellyn]

Let's play nice

OR face some national champion moderation.

[Zak Smith]

I haven' heard an official match date yet.  *IF* the USPSA 3-gun Nationals date for next year conflicts with one of the other matches, I'll fight against it.

I am glad to hear this, because I would like to shoot the 3GN in 2006, schedule of course permitting.

-z

[George]

Let's play nice, OR face some national champion moderation.

You tell'em Kelly!

Yes, it was a great match. Yes, San Angelo scoring rocked the house. Yes, we need to keep this thread on the up and up. I second Kelly about some moderatin' here if it's needed ;-/

BTW, congrats on a fine match and a hard fought and well earned win in Vegas Kelly. Not a single stage placement out of the top 5 and some bad-a$$ competition. That's smokin' dude :-)

As far as what didn't work at this match. I think it was pretty much limited to my AR on stage 10 and my brain on Stage 1 & 12. Everything else worked wonderfully. Thank You Bruce!!! We all wish you could have been there and enjoyed the fruits of your labors.

--

Regards,

Edited October 18, 2005 by George

[Mig]

This year's match was very good, much better than last year's. The scoring system worked. The stages were challenging, well balanced and not one was tossed out. Very good ROs and the location was excellent plus a very high turn out. Nothing but high marks for this match. Thanks to the match staff who made it possible and to Bruce for the MG rules.

Edited October 18, 2005 by Mig

[kellyn]

Thanks George.

This thread is about the 2005 USPSA 3 Gun uh I mean Multigun Nationals. Keep it on that course. If you want to discuss the state of 3 gunning in general (USPSA and so-called outlaw matches etc) START A NEW THREAD!

Comments on the match:

I thought it was in general an excellent match. The stages ran VERY smoothly and my squad was always on time. I liked the number of stages (12). I also applaud the use of a rifle standards stage - even though I screwed it up!

Negatives?

USPSA 3 gun has always struggled (at least in my opinion) with long range rifle. I think it is a combination of the fact that USPSA has primarily been a pistol-focused organization. So many rifle stages end up being pistol stages shot with rifles. I'm not against short range rifle shooting but we need to be testing our long and medium range skills more. At this match, there were only 6 rifle shots of any real difficulty - (although they were OF NO difficulty to Bennie who just smoked em!). The rifle standards stage did ameliorated this somewhat but 80 yards will never be 200 yards.

I realize this some of this has to do with range considerations and the difficulty of running long range rifle courses but long range rifle is one area that the "outlaw" matches have figured out fairly well.

One other negative. The box used to abandon the pistol could have been vastly improved upon. I feel that such devices should be nearly foolproof before being used in a local much less National match. The device used at Rocky Mountain 3 Gun should probably be the model - you get the pistol in the box without turning it around on yourself and close the lid. You're then good to go. Hopefully that was a lesson learned.

The only other comment that I would have is not really positive or negative. The stages were more about pure shooting and much less about strategy. The stages were fairly straight forward and did not require much strategory to complete. Good or bad? I don't know. I prefer more of a probelm soving kind of stage myself but others prefer straight up shooting. Maybe in the future it ought to be mixed up a little.

THANKS again to all the hardworking match staff who made it possible.

[outerlimits]

have to admit, this year's match was better than last year's-certainly not as physically gruelling. every one of our stages was right on time, great RO's and weather was perfect. very few traps at all and the stages were balanced well. as was the case last year, the pistol side of things was not very demanding. if anything, it was weighted towards shotgun.

our squad had it's share of troubles. felt sorry for TMC to watch him shoot stage 10 with a manual rifle-he had a great match going. also hated to see Chris's shotgun break after the 1st shot of the match-he shot a borrowed 1100 but that brings with it lot's of mental uncertanties. also, one of our squad members unfortunately DQ'd on stage 9 (my best stage). my interceptor latch got bent early in the match and my SG puked at every stage. RO's had to break out a sundial to time me on stage 10-found out last night one of my rings had loosened from the base-will buy 2 gallons of locktite on the way home.

but, it's vegas baby! loved the bass pro shop in my hotel-stayed outta the casinos and spent $$$ there. got buffeted out and had a great steak somewhere-don't remember exactly where, but that's another story, but i did find the place with the 48 ounce beer...

[George]

Mike Voigt asked for suggestions for improvement next year and Kelly nailed one of the areas that I believe needs attention most. The pistol box used was vague at best. Yes, it was explained and that settles that, but the RM3G boxes rock and should be looked at as a very good thing to make industry standard.

The rifle dump barrel's used on 7 and 8 worked perfectly and can be left as is IMO.

The use of chamber flags was encouraged, but not enforced. I think it should be mandated in the future. I used mine religously, no-one else did as I was able to notice. I like being able to close my bolt and know it's clear. No suprise bolt forwards while handling long guns that way. This makes universal sense to me instead of specifying locked back as cleared carry mode. Specify forward on an indicator as preferred, if not as mandated is my pref here.

The LD rifle stage was fun, but as Kelly mentioned it wasn't a "real" LD rifle stage. The LD rifle stage at the 2004 RM3G was a real LD rifle stage (1 IIRC). Stage 10 at the 2005 US3G was a mid-range carnival stage with some LD steel tossed in. Fun, but not as challenging as the RM3G Mid-Range and LD rifle stages I have shot in the past.

--

Regards,

[Flexmoney]

I have split out some of the discussion that centers around the rules...from this thread that is covering how the match went, in general.

I think the rules talk is important enough to warrant it's own thread.

click >> http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=28714

[3GunF1Guy]

I was one of the people who really wanted to see uspsa go to a time plus, I went to this match with an OPEN mind and had a really great great time. The RO's were great the stages were well .. not the Ironman. Short fast and you had to plan how you were going to shoot each stage carefully or it would cost you. The scoring using the San Angelo was really a nothing. What I mean is, I want to look at each target I shot at anyway (it is a national championship) and in that time it was very easy for the RO's to score it. In comparison to the MGA style scoring I use at my mathes in Utah, it went just as fast. So for this match it would have been a wash.

Woops sorry kelly.. back to the match.

When I was talking to some of my squad mates we all said it was like a 3-gun club match match with lots of props and 12 cof's. I shot way slow, but had a great time. I was a little disapointed in the stage design. No weak side shotgun or rifle, and not even one 3-gun stage. Also not even one flying clay, I love those!! Waaaayyy to much pistol for me. If you look at the range design there could have been a greater test of rifle marksmanship using some of the unused bays. I know that uspsa is growing in 3-gun and they took a big step forward. Good job to everyone who did stats and RO'ed and all the rest of the people involved. THANK YOU!!!

Scott Peterson