Shooting on the move in USPSA production. When?

[Nimitz]

When to shoot on the move? Unless you are an A class or above shooter the answer is " almost never" .... Unless you can basically guarantee 2 Alphas or first hit steel knockdown you'll be wasting more time than you potentially save. Also, there are probably many other areas that are time sinks for you where you can shave whole seconds off your stage times without any of the risk which comes with shooting on the move.

I'll take it even one step further and say that unless you can shoot the typical classifier on demand at or near the 75% level you would probably be better off (WRT your long term skill development) to work on your fundamental stand and shoot core USPSA skills vice a ton of movement stuff ...however, we all know that running around is more fun so very few people really perfect their stand and shoot skills ... Of course very few ever make Master either ....

[alma]

At risk of outing my poor general shooting performance I am going to post a few videos for discussion. I tend to disagree with the folks who said that you would always want to shoot on the move. Shooting on the move is one tool that you need to have in your kit that can and should come out on occasion but it's not the right tool for every situation. Like I said before I feel that where you shoot on the move can have a lot to do with momentum and minimizing the number of hard positions that you have to get into and get out of. Now, whenever you move between positions you would always want to try and get your momentum moving at least a bit before you have to leave and come into your next position ready to shoot.

Like I said before, some stages are not suited to shooting on the move. This is especially true in Production or other limited capacity divisions. You have to make a mag change so being in a hurry to blow through a position just to get to the next without having completes your reload doesn't usually do you much good.

Here is an example of a stage where I believe that for the most part of it you will be shooting flat footed through various ports/shooting positions.

Targets are mostly at medium distance.

Edited May 28, 2014 by alma

[alma]

Now for the other side of the coin. With close targets that you must advance beyond, I don't care who you are, you had better be shooting on the move. However, please don't feel that you should be trying to move on that first array until your shots on the swinger are down range.

[alma]

The final final example is one where shooting on the move in sections is definitely required.

The first two targets were tight shots that could either be engaged at distance near the start position or you could charge them on a straight line. Much like how when you play 8 ball where you not only think if this shot but also how it sets you up for the next shot. If charing those targets would have put me in a good place to shoot another array then I would have done it but that wasn't the case here; they were out of the way so I chose to take a step on the draw and shoot them at distance before proceeding forward. If these targets were open further up range then I like would have shot them on a slow move but a wall blocked that option.

The next position is one where I really wish I would have had 12 rounds. Most shot the three low targets on the move, reloaded and charged deep into a low port on the left. I opted to shoot the first low target I could see while I was still moving forward then reload and tale out their other five without running all the way into the low port and having to run all the way back out. The reload felt and looked slow as heck so I am not happy about that but I don't think I would change that plan if I had it to do over again.

The next position is a port where shooting on the move worked out very well and sets you up nicely for the final targets. Again, the reason I am putting these up is hopefully to offer support for my opinion that shooting on the move is important but there is a time and a place for it and it's not something you should do in every situation.

[basman]

Scoring is points divided by time. HF is the bottom line. Experience will tell you if you can gain anything by shooting on the move, or stoping and then running to the next position. Set the drill up at your next practice session and see what works for you.

Lets say that a hard stop takes 1 second to start shooting and 1 second to begin moving and get back up to speed, add in splits and transitions, plus the time to reach your next position.

VS.

The time it takes you to get from A to B while shooting on the move, add in splits and transitions, plus the time to finish getting to your next position.

from Box a engage 1 target, enter "free fire zone" engage 4 targets on the move or standing, proceed to box B and engage 1 target.

Score the targets, figure out the HF and see which works best for you.

[motosapiens]

When to shoot on the move? Unless you are an A class or above shooter the answer is " almost never" .... Unless you can basically guarantee 2 Alphas or first hit steel knockdown you'll be wasting more time than you potentially save. Also, there are probably many other areas that are time sinks for you where you can shave whole seconds off your stage times without any of the risk which comes with shooting on the move.

I'll take it even one step further and say that unless you can shoot the typical classifier on demand at or near the 75% level you would probably be better off (WRT your long term skill development) to work on your fundamental stand and shoot core USPSA skills vice a ton of movement stuff ...however, we all know that running around is more fun so very few people really perfect their stand and shoot skills ... Of course very few ever make Master either ....

You make some reasonable points, but I don't think it's ever too soon to at least practice shooting on the move, and learning when it can be advantageous. I find that dryfire practice at shooting on the move is extremely helpful for my sight awareness and helps the rest of my shooting too. It's just another tool in the toolkit, and when one gets bored of static drills it is something different that helps keep your training fresh and motivating.

[ZackJones]

The South Carolina sectional is coming up this weekend. I'm going to do my best to map out stage plans where I can shoot everything standing still and then haul ass to the next shooting position. That should make for an interesting experiment. I'll post my findings on Monday if I don't get a chance to post them over the weekend.

[motosapiens]

The South Carolina sectional is coming up this weekend. I'm going to do my best to map out stage plans where I can shoot everything standing still and then haul ass to the next shooting position. That should make for an interesting experiment. I'll post my findings on Monday if I don't get a chance to post them over the weekend.

Most of the time that will still involve *some* shooting on the move. Unless there are lots of partials/noshoots/small-poppers it is usually feasible and faster to be shooting as you are reaching a position. Also usually a big time-saver to be shifting your weight and stepping off to move out as the last shot breaks.

[Moltke]

Just an example -

During your walk through it takes you 15 seconds to get line of sight on each target = 15 sec

And it takes you 1 second to get into your 4 designated shooting positions = 4 sec

And it takes you 1 second to get out of your 4 designated shooting positions = 4 sec

And you know your splits are a .25 second for every round fired (32 rounds) = 8 sec

And you know your reloads are 2 seconds for 4 reloads each in the CoF = 8 sec

Total consecutive time 39 sec

So where are your possible time saving efficiencies?

Reload while moving, you save time, possibly 8 sec

Shoot while entering / leaving positions, you save time, possibly 8 sec

If you can hit any A zones on the move, you save time, possibly .25 sec per

The more shots you can take on the move the more you save.

[Supermoto]

I think rolling your way through positions is a great way to save time, but I really don't think of it as shooting on the move. I see shooting on the move is when I am already moving fast and the time to stop will cost more than the points on the target

[Ultimo-Hombre]

After reading this thread used today's training session to do some testing.

Set up a COF with a corridor with 4 targets on both sides. Two open targets to start and then zebras and partial lower a zones guarded by no shoots. A small steel from the end of the corridor was my "stop plate"

Rule was the stop plate had to be shot from fault line at end of corridor.

This left me with the option to engage all targets static then run to fault line, or shoot on the move, arriving at fault line as I finished the corridor. The corridor distance was 17 yards.

I train consistently but this was my first time devoting a full session to such a specific movement vs static comparison.

150 rds each way.

Avg HF static 5.23

Avg HF shoot on the move 6.67

Of course this is anecdotal to anyone else, but gave me some fresh perspective. Try it yourself and share your findings!

[BeerBaron]

Just an example -

During your walk through it takes you 15 seconds to get line of sight on each target = 15 sec

And it takes you 1 second to get into your 4 designated shooting positions = 4 sec

And it takes you 1 second to get out of your 4 designated shooting positions = 4 sec

And you know your splits are a .25 second for every round fired (32 rounds) = 8 sec

And you know your reloads are 2 seconds for 4 reloads each in the CoF = 8 sec

Total consecutive time 39 sec

So where are your possible time saving efficiencies?

Reload while moving, you save time, possibly 8 sec

Shoot while entering / leaving positions, you save time, possibly 8 sec

If you can hit any A zones on the move, you save time, possibly .25 sec per

The more shots you can take on the move the more you save.

that's a great calculator to use but to my mind it's not taking into account a crucial factor (certainly for me, and I think many others too).

I can run flat out much faster that I can move whilst shooting. the fastest I can move and shoot at the same time with any kind of accuracy at all is a fast walk at best. even a top shooter is not much faster than that (unless we're talking 3 yard targets of course). so in part of that stage plan if I shoot a few on the move it may save me some planted shooting time. but my running time may blow out from 15 sec to 20sec or more. the reloads on the move are a no brainer, they should be able to be accomplished within the first 2 steps. and for guys with good gun handling they can be finished as they take the first step so it doesn't slow down their running at all.

funnily enough the more agile you are (faster runner) the less opportunity you probably have to shoot on the move as you can save time by being super fast from position to position. for slower guys the difference between their flat out run and their 'move and shoot' speed may not be so different so it may be beneficial for those guys.

[Ultimo-Hombre]

Just an example -

During your walk through it takes you 15 seconds to get line of sight on each target = 15 sec

And it takes you 1 second to get into your 4 designated shooting positions = 4 sec

And it takes you 1 second to get out of your 4 designated shooting positions = 4 sec

And you know your splits are a .25 second for every round fired (32 rounds) = 8 sec

And you know your reloads are 2 seconds for 4 reloads each in the CoF = 8 sec

Total consecutive time 39 sec

So where are your possible time saving efficiencies?

Reload while moving, you save time, possibly 8 sec

Shoot while entering / leaving positions, you save time, possibly 8 sec

If you can hit any A zones on the move, you save time, possibly .25 sec per

The more shots you can take on the move the more you save.

that's a great calculator to use but to my mind it's not taking into account a crucial factor (certainly for me, and I think many others too).

I can run flat out much faster that I can move whilst shooting. the fastest I can move and shoot at the same time with any kind of accuracy at all is a fast walk at best. even a top shooter is not much faster than that (unless we're talking 3 yard targets of course). so in part of that stage plan if I shoot a few on the move it may save me some planted shooting time. but my running time may blow out from 15 sec to 20sec or more. the reloads on the move are a no brainer, they should be able to be accomplished within the first 2 steps. and for guys with good gun handling they can be finished as they take the first step so it doesn't slow down their running at all.

funnily enough the more agile you are (faster runner) the less opportunity you probably have to shoot on the move as you can save time by being super fast from position to position. for slower guys the difference between their flat out run and their 'move and shoot' speed may not be so different so it may be beneficial for those guys.

I'm with ya bro, but put logic aside and run your own practical analysis. I was surprised by my results. You may be too.

[Ron Ankeny]

I think rolling your way through positions is a great way to save time, but I really don't think of it as shooting on the move.

I have had the "what constitutes shooting on the move" conversation with several folks. To me, shooting on the move is just that, it is shooting when you are moving. That can be while walking, while picking up a foot to take a step, taking a step backward, or while your upper body is moving during a hard lean to the side. Some people even consider shooting while the gun is moving (as in while being pressed out) as shooting while moving. If I shoot as I step into a box as I am lifting my trailing foot, during the press out, is that shooting on the move? Sure it is...or is it?

I'm with ya bro, but put logic aside and run your own practical analysis. I was surprised by my results. You may be too.

Looks like we have a winner. I have set up various drills with shooting friends to demonstrate this very issue. Some of them are forum members. Many years ago, forum member Sam and myself set up several drills. Sam is a very exposive person when he moves, I was lighter and I have a very long stride. We would set a box at the left end of a plate rack with a second box perhaps 8-10 yards to the right. Shoot three plates from Box A, and then haul it to Box B and shoot 3 more. It really didn't matter how many of the six were shot from Box A as long as one was shot from Box B. Record the times. The second drill was to draw at the buzzer and shoot one plate as you lean to move, then shoot 4 more plates on the move, finishing by shooting the sixth plate as you step into Box B. I have done this with several shooters. All of them were faster shooting on the move. Of course all of them were able to hit the plates on the move. Try it with large poppers.

There are countless drills you can use to demonstrate shooting on the move vs. running and planting. Bed Stoeger has several drills in his book and on his video. Ben knows a lot about shooting Production. Saul Kirsh has similar drills in his book. On the flip side, Alma is also correct. There are times when the stage design just isn't conducive to shooting on the move. The best that can be hoped for is having a target to shoot as you are arriving and/or one to engage as you are leaving. If you are forced to leave on steel...we all know about the "steel dance".

Edited May 29, 2014 by Ron Ankeny

[aandabooks]

I tried a little shooting on the move in my last match and it was bad. Not something I have really practiced at but the stage design made it the logical thing to do. Really learned my lesson that I need to practice the skill before trying to put it into my match bag of tricks. I believe I would have shot for more points by setting my feet.

[motosapiens]

Really learned my lesson that I need to practice the skill before trying to put it into my match bag of tricks.

lol, yup. But dry-fire practice while moving will make significant improvements in a big hurry, and it has helped my overall sight awareness and shot-calling ability considerably. Since the sights are moving around more, it requires much more attention to (and awareness of) your sight picture. This has been a big benefit to my static shooting as well.

[Moltke]

Its just an example math problem but glad you liked it as it illustrates efficiencies

If you really do suck at shooting on the move and your accuracy goes to hell then don't do it at a match until you're comfortable doing it in practice

But that means you should switch your practice regimen to include shooting on the move right away because you're going to realize efficiencies quickly

The shots required for A zone hits in USPSA are not that hard for distances we usually encounter, shooting accurately on the move isn't hard, some people can just do it "faster" than others

So its a judgment call as to what you're going to do in a match, play to your strengths.

It is definitely the "better" way to shoot to take everything on the move, hit the A's, maintain momentum and prevent any stop & go choppiness

Aside from the efficiencies you gain, the smoothness of shooting on the move also lends itself to a better Zen experience while executing the Enos type 4 focus for continuous shot calling

As you roll through the course of fire, your sights tell you when to shoot, call your shots, reload when appropriate, and before you know it you find yourself at the end

If you can move through a course of fire without stopping, shooting the A's as they become available to you, reloading during the movement when you weren't going to be shooting anyway... Is there a better case scenario?

Edited May 29, 2014 by Moltke

[Supermoto]

Its just an example math problem but glad you liked it as it illustrates efficiencies If you really do suck at shooting on the move and your accuracy goes to hell then don't do it at a match until you're comfortable doing it in practice But that means you should switch your practice regimen to include shooting on the move right away because you're going to realize efficiencies quickly The shots required for A zone hits in USPSA are not that hard for distances we usually encounter, shooting accurately on the move isn't hard, some people can just do it "faster" than others So its a judgment call as to what you're going to do in a match, play to your strengths. It is definitely the "better" way to shoot to take everything on the move, hit the A's, maintain momentum and prevent any stop & go choppiness Aside from the efficiencies you gain, the smoothness of shooting on the move also lends itself to a better Zen experience while executing the Enos type 4 focus for continuous shot calling As you roll through the course of fire, your sights tell you when to shoot, call your shots, reload when appropriate, and before you know it you find yourself at the end If you can move through a course of fire without stopping, shooting the A's as they become available to you, reloading during the movement when you weren't going to be shooting anyway... Is there a better case scenario?

It depends, are you splits and transitions the same time. Or will they be slow enough to counter any gains from moving? Will the movement while shooting be faster than shoot and scoot time. Just because you are moving and shooting A, it doesn't mean it is the fast way through a stage. Practice will tell you when to use it and when not to.

[motosapiens]

It is definitely the "better" way to shoot to take everything on the move, hit the A's, maintain momentum and prevent any stop & go choppiness

That explains why all the top match-winning shooters shoot everything on the move.

Oh, wait, no they don't. They shoot *some* things on the move when they know it's faster.

[Moltke]

If you think stop & go shooting is a better way to do it, then do it, it may very well be the right call for that situation.

But given the high percentage of exposed targets that are within 15 yards for USPSA, shooting on the move is winning.

I'm not a GM shooter, just offering what I've learned from my own experience and shooting with Pros.

Anything you CAN shoot on the move, you SHOULD shoot on the move; and only slow down or stop when you absolutely have to.

All the top match-winning shooters do in fact shoot every target they possibly can while moving, and only stop when they have to.

Thinking "when should I shoot on the move" is backwards, whereas thinking "where do I have to slow down or stop" is better.

[Nimitz]

it depends on how you define "shooting on the move". Is it: shooting while entering and exiting a position before you have completely stopped moving and planted your feet or is it literally shooting targets as you walk, trot or run by them? I consider one effective and efficient stage execution & movement and the other shooting while moving ...

[Ben Stoeger]

All the top match-winning shooters do in fact shoot every target they possibly can while moving, and only stop when they have to.

Thinking "when should I shoot on the move" is backwards, whereas thinking "where do I have to slow down or stop" is better.

I don't agree with any of this.

I shoot on the move when I get a tangible benefit from doing it and I have judged it to be worth the risk. I sure don't do it whenever I possibly can.

[Moltke]

Well OK then, thanks for the correction.

So do you purposefully minimize your shooting on the move while maximizing stop & go shooting?

How often do you find yourself shooting moving vs shooting static?

[BritinUSA]

A lot of the top competitors, while not moving their feet while shooting, will be shifting their body weight as they fire the final shot(s) and stepping off immediately that they have called the shot.

[pjb45]

Many years ago, I was practicing with Don Golembieki (GM) of Kodiak Precision at Rio Salado. He set up a row of targets about 15 yards from two lateral boxes.

The matches back then had a lot of opportunities for shooting on the move. It was a skill every GM had to have to compete.

I timed his runs. First starting in one box and running to the other box v. starting in one box and shooting on the move to the other box. His shooting on the move was always faster than one box-run to-other box.

Having attended many National and Area 2 matches since then, I have rarely seen stages where shooting on the move was an advantage. Max M did a YouTube while with the AMU on shooting on the move. HIs bottom line was in a risk/reward situation was to ensure there was a reward and not to take risks where the outcome was not a reward.

A few years later, I was shooting at Taran's range. I referred to his movement as a California rolling stop, he was rolling into the port and rolling out of while shooting.

If you have older FrontSight magazines, there were two 'Tips from the Grand Masters" articles describing these techniques.

Shooting is a perishable skill. I did a lot of .22 work shooting on the move. I got ok at it, but rarely used it in either major or local matches. I no longer practice it.

I had more than a few ROs talk about how quickly Mike Voigt entered and left a port/shooting position.

The conclusion is do you want to devote practice to a skill you might not use very much instead of developing critical skills???

Personally, I took Matt Burkett's advice and starting extending the distances in my practices. When I could practice a lot, I shot most of my practice at 30-40 yards. This improved my accuracy at all distances.