Shooting on the move in USPSA production. When?

[MarkCO]

Knowing how doesn't teach you when to deploy the skill.....

True!

This thing is a game, and it is all about shooting the most points per second. That is why knowing the projected HHF on a stage is important. and your metrics to shoot 2 As at various yardages.

[ZackJones]

This has turned into a very interesting read. I spent a lot of time watching the videos referenced above and seeing how the GM's shoot and more importantly the differences between them was quite an education. I think for me, at least, the best approach is to assess my current skills using drills. It makes no sense to work on shooting on the move if I'm lacking in one of the fundamental areas. One point that really hit home with me was having to get your hits due to the amount of points you drop for each charlie and delta hit. At Area 6 I shot 67% A's, 2% B's, 25% C's, 4% D's and 2% Mikes. I see I have lots of room for improvement.

[BeerBaron]

I think markCO and Nimitz have kind of summed up my feeling on it.

try this test. set up a stage with classic targets (or metric if you prefer).

some to the left and right of a path and a final target down the end. do one or two of the arrays with a no shoot/penalty obscuring part of the scoring targets or even just in between a high and low target array.

make it about 12 shots.

this course is spaced over about 15 yards and the targets are about 4 yards off to the left or right of the central path.

start up range at about the 20 yard mark. now walk down range and keep moving. engage targets as you can.

take the time and score.

now try it a different way. run it as fast as you can into positions where you can stop, shoot and move off quickly again.

for a master shooter I bet both ways will be close. for a newer shooter my bet is method 2 will be much, much faster (assuming they are comfortable really running fast with the gun already and getting into and out of positions).

as you improve you find that the targets you can 'point shoot' or 'instinctively shoot' get further away. at the start perhaps you could only point shoot 5 yard targets. after a year you might be able to happily point shoot 10 yard targets. pretty much any target you can point shoot you can shoot on the move, but again, you might be trading off some points and you may not be gaining as much time as you think. running to a spot, stopping, firing 2 rapid shots and moving off again at full tilt vs walking or slow running past and shooting on the move.

I do think it's worth practicing and comparing the 2 approaches and see what your current skill level is capable of. but I agree with nimitz and markCO that in most matches the opportunities where shooting on the move is the 'best' option are fairly limited.

[alma]

Momentum can be your best friend or worst enemy. I usually break a stage up into shooting positions. The times it takes to get into and out of position can add up fast so make it count when you do have to plant and look for opportunities to minimize the times that you have to stop where possible.

[basman]

The first thing you need to figure out is an acceptable distance for shooting on the move. In production you can't afford to drop many points, so if you can shoot Alpha's at 5 yards on the move but not at 7 yards or 10 yards, then you know your limits for shooting on the move (for now at least)

As said above you can time and score yourself in practice to find out which way is best.

Shooting on the move is fun and seems to be faster, but may not result in the best HF for you on that stage.

[blaster113]

Thinking back to the majors Ive been to, I dont recall too many opportunities for shooting on the move. I think quick and efficient movement into and out of positions are the real time savers, as well as quick transitions and reloads. With that said I try to shoot on the move whenever I can. At this last A2 I squadded with a GM; he didnt shoot much on the move but had very quick and fluid movement through the stages.

[Chris iliff]

Never ever ever ever ever slow down.

Just learn to aim better.

I didn't read everything, so if I'm repeating then ignore.

You will have to find your break over point. At some "distance" you will gain a better HF by stopping.

For me, in open, I try to keep moving with targets somewhere out to 10-12 yards, closer if it's a no shoot/hard cover target.

I've seen shooters hose themselves by shooting stuff over their ability on the move. They end up being so slow that the shooters who "set up" by stopping, beat them. You have to know your "break-over" distance and target types you are capable of shooting.

Edited May 1, 2014 by Chris iliff

[Chris iliff]

Edited: double post

Edited April 30, 2014 by Chris iliff

[Just4FunLP]

As luck would have it there was a stage at my local match today that explicitly instructed the shooter to shoot on the move. It's the target between the barrels.

. Although I wasn't exactly moving at blinding speed, I got it done. I took three head shots and got two "A"s. I was pretty happy with that. Also, if you watch carefully my first shot of the stage was on the popper. I thought I heard it hit, but it didn't fall, and I had to come back to it. Later on we found out that the thing was turned around backwards. OOps.

On another stage there was a large group of targets at the back of the course that would require a reload, so since I was going to end up with a bunch of ammo in my gun I decided to try blasting away at the popper that activated a swinger while I ran up. There wasn't any no shoots near by, so I didn't see the harm. I hit it on the first shot.

The last stage started with a group of targets on the left and right. Then you reloaded and halfway to the back of the course there was a target on the left and right behind some cover, bot close to the lines. I decided to go for it, and took three fast shots at the one on the right getting two "A"s and a "B", but when I swung back to the left I was too far down range and came very close to breaking the 180. I had to stop and take a step back. I got an "A" and a "B", and the eye from the RO.

All-in-all it was very fun. Maybe close targets with no no-shoots and the option of an extra shot or two is the way to go. I need to be much more cautious when it comes to targets directly across from each other and go really slow.

[alma]

As luck would have it there was a stage at my local match today that explicitly instructed the shooter to shoot on the move.

Yeah, they can't tell you to do that in USPSA.

[alma]

It's also very strange that they have you shoot from a box at the end under a port but don't require that both feet be in the box. One foot out is out. Is this Outlaw USPSA?

[Just4FunLP]

That's what it said in the instructions. It also said that both feet didn't need to be in box at the end.

We had three new shooters in the squad and the CRO told us that you couldn't be required to shoot on the move. It was an unusual stage, but I think that everyone shot it while moving, and did a pretty good job.

It wasn't exactly a world championship match.

At my level I don't think it really makes much difference if I blow a couple of "A"s. It's fun...

[alma]

The way the stage is set up it certainly makes the most senses to shoot it on the move. Perhaps it's the perfect example of when to shoot on the move even though in this case there stage designer attempted to dictate it.

It can be hard to set up good stages but USPSA is a freestyle competition and shooters should be left with some options of filed courses.

[eric4069]

Maybe close targets with no no-shoots and the option of an extra shot or two is the way to go.

As an upper C class Production shooter this is my strategy. Often if it is just one target on the move I will put three shots on it if my stage plan allows enough ammo.

Eric

[MarkCO]

Just an aside...I shot the Cowtown this past weekend, and while my performance was consistent with my lack of practice on pistol (1 match and no practice since Nationals) my best stage was shot with a kind of risky plan...

31 rounds, shot 11 rounds, slide-lock reload, 10 rounds slide lock reload, 10 rounds slide lock reload. 28 As, 3Cs, and according to the ROs, the only one who (late Saturday afternoon) had shot 4 As on the targets behind soft cover. Every round was shot with planted feet.

The three stages I shot more than 2 targets on the move resulted in my worst stage scores.

Production is about shooting As (pretty fast). Try some drills with 3 shots and compare that to two As. Unless there is something terribly wrong, 2 As will beat 3 sloppy shots. The only time I shoot a 3rd shot is when I missed the sight picture at the break of the shot or I get into random sloppy shooting mode.

[Moltke]

You should only stop moving if you need to see a "perfect" sight picture, otherwise keep your momentum going and at worst "pause" a little when you need to see a better version of whatever the "acceptable" sight picture is to make an A zone hit. If you start thinking about how to keep moving the whole time instead of when to move, you'll start pulling ahead quickly.

Edited May 8, 2014 by Moltke

[MarkCO]

In USPSA Production, you need to see a better sight picture than in Limited, and a LOT better sight picture than in 3Gun...

[Therealkoop]

what about......

LIMITED MINOR!

I just treat it as production. 3 gun practice!

[MarkCO]

what about......

LIMITED MINOR!

I just treat it as production. 3 gun practice!

I've shot a good bit of Limited minor "practicing" for 3Gun. I am usually down 10% on points and up 15% on speed as compared to production, and lower scores to reflect such.

[Moltke]

If your scoring is minor then you better shoot for points.

If your scoring is major then you should also shoot for points.

The value of the scoring zones is less relevant the higher you go in the sport because when everyones moving and shooting at mach 2, and all the times are almost identical, whoever has more points is going to win.

Learn to shoot A zones on the move, see what you need to see in your sights, and only stop moving when you have to.

[motosapiens]

Just an aside...I shot the Cowtown this past weekend, and while my performance was consistent with my lack of practice on pistol (1 match and no practice since Nationals) my best stage was shot with a kind of risky plan...

31 rounds, shot 11 rounds, slide-lock reload, 10 rounds slide lock reload, 10 rounds slide lock reload. 28 As, 3Cs, and according to the ROs, the only one who (late Saturday afternoon) had shot 4 As on the targets behind soft cover. Every round was shot with planted feet.

The three stages I shot more than 2 targets on the move resulted in my worst stage scores.

Production is about shooting As (pretty fast). Try some drills with 3 shots and compare that to two As. Unless there is something terribly wrong, 2 As will beat 3 sloppy shots. The only time I shoot a 3rd shot is when I missed the sight picture at the break of the shot or I get into random sloppy shooting mode.

So you're saying if you don't practice, then shooting on the move may not be a great strategy? that makes sense.

As moltke wisely notes, if you can get mostly A's while moving, then it may make sense to. If you practice shooting while moving (especially at non-point-blank distances), then you'll not only be more aware of your sights all the time, but you can also take advantage of the places where shooting on the move is valuable, even if it's only shooting while you're stepping out or into a position.

[mese341]

yeah i dont move a whole lot when i shoot

[SeanN]

Be careful of shooting on the move simply for its own sake. Do you gain a significant advantage while shooting on the move? This is entirely dependant upon your abilities as a shooter and the stage you're shooting.

How long does it take you to shoot an array on the move and how far did you move? Put a line in the dirt where you end up, set the time it took you as a par time. Shoot that same array standing and then run full speed to the line. Did you make it before the par time? If you didn't, it's faster to shoot on the move. If you did, it isn't.

Also check the hits. If you threw a bunch of C's and D's while shooting on the move and shot all A's while standing still that second you saved likely isn't worth the drop in points.

Manny Brag taught a class that I was in recently and that's how he told us to analyze shooting on the move and when you should or shouldn't do it. It does require you to do some practice and a lot of thinking.

And like others said, if you need to do a reload in Production or Single Stack after shooting on the move that you end up doing standing because you're already at the next position, you saved absolutely no time and likely got worse hits.

[leemoe83]

Many shooters way overrate shooting on the move. What they see in videos is often just top shooters repositioning their body for transitions and they do it so fast and seamless it appears like they never stop moving, this is not shooting on the move. Ben Stoeger says that shooting on the move doesn't save anytime unless you are really moving, not slow walking. There will be obvious scenarios where shooting on the would be beneficial so do it. If it is questionable your most likely better off shooting it static.

For a C class shooter it would be beneficial to know what your capabilities are shooting on the move but I would not make it a focus of your practice. Draws, reloads, transitions, entry, and exits are the primary concerns. You will find that your shooting on the move gets much better from just improving your static shooting. I have never shot a match and walked away thinking " if only I could shoot on the move better........."

[glockified]

I like all 3 of Nik's posts above, some great advice and some great drills.