IDPA and the foolishness

[Chuck D]

IF the targets can't be engaged in ANY order and they HAVE to be engaged in an IDPA LEGAL order then it isn't FREESTYLE now is it.

If I understand your example correctly, "cover positions were usually dictated" and if the "targets could be engaged in any legal order" then all the targets involved in the example must have been visible from the position of cover AND of equal distance and threat to the shooter.

Please...Sir, PLEASE tell me you're not calling that "creative" COF design...

IDPA stage design...if it's a LEGAL stage design it will dictate 98% of what the shooter needs to do in as far as shooting position, target engagement order, reloading points, adequate use of cover, ect....and like I said rather clear, there's nothing wrong with that if that's what the rules require but don't equate that to "creativity" and "flexibility" in stage manipulation.

I will never understand why when confronted with the realities of IDPA stage design and the inclusion of some "well known and respected tactical instructors" beliefs some will IMMEDIATELY shift to defenseive mode and make any statement necessary, no matter how obscure and unconventional to protect the brand. Those of us that took the time and invested the capital to join IDPA and shoot it, especially on the State and Regional level and have left the sport NOT because of the rules but because of how the rules are applied not only have a right but have an obligation to explain to others why they (I) took the steps they (I) did. USPSA/IPSC isn't perfect either but if you're telling me IDPA has a measureable component of creativity or flexibility in stage manipulation by the shooter I'd be "amused" to say the very least.

Tac Priority, Tac Sequence, and the use of cover rules when engaging targets say otherwise. Hell...even reloading on the move behind cover is strictly controlled now.

Edited May 28, 2014 by Chuck D

[BillR1]

"IDPA legal order" still leaves room for varying engagement in the separate target arrays in a COF. A particular COF can have several target arrays as you know. The order the arrays are engaged can be flexible as long as cover, etc. is followed. This is not anything new!

I was the SO on a stage at the AZ state match and I SAW at least 3 different ways to shoot that particular stage. All 3 ways were completely legal, and they let the shooter decide based on his/her preferences as far as distance from cover, reload points, etc.

The different reload methods alone give the shooter some considerable latitude on stage planning. Some like emergency reloads only, while others prefer a LCR when possible. The shooter gets to decide which method to use in most cases.

I never claimed IDPA was "freestyle" as you call it. I DID say that it was not nearly as scripted as some like to claim. There IS room for some liberties.

Also, as an SO I don't give out PEs for creativity. If the shooter finishes the stage within the rules, then I have no reason to penalize them for doing something different. I'm sorry your experiences have been otherwise.

Edited May 28, 2014 by BillR1

[twodownzero]

I swear, every single time I think about shooting IDPA again, they make even more rules that make me change my mind.

Maybe next year.....

[JackinSD]

Let me preface by saying I shoot both IDPA, USPSA or any other type of shooting that can be done.

Just read an article on Outdoor Hub and I believe he made some valid points (sorry I don't remember the author). He made the following points concerning IDPA being valid:

• Drawing quickly from concealment when a threat is presented.
• Maintaining trigger finger discipline.
• Thinking about what not to shoot at.
• Front-sight focus for first-shot hits.
• Quickly transitioning from one target to another.
• Maintaining awareness of what else is going on around you.
• What to do when you hear a “click” instead of a “bang.”
• Taking advantage of cover.

The only two that are IDPA dependent are the first and the last. You can come up with your own list for USPSA by adding others.

Do I agree with all the rules of both IDPA and USPSA? NO.

The similarities of the two are what makes me shoot both.

a.) You have a gun in my hand and shooting targets.

b.) You get the opportunity to use the most lethal weapon you have, your mind.

[motosapiens]

. I'm not real sure where the "scripted" reputation comes from, other than maybe USPSA shooters who are used to far fewer rules when they shoot.

The 'scripted' reputation comes because almost all idpa stages are ENTIRELY scripted, and the few others that have choices have very narrow scripted choices. Nothing wrong with that if that's what you like, but it's silly to deny that IDPA shooting is extremely scripted.

[BillR1]

. I'm not real sure where the "scripted" reputation comes from, other than maybe USPSA shooters who are used to far fewer rules when they shoot.

The 'scripted' reputation comes because almost all idpa stages are ENTIRELY scripted, and the few others that have choices have very narrow scripted choices. Nothing wrong with that if that's what you like, but it's silly to deny that IDPA shooting is extremely scripted.

Scripted compared to USPSA? No question. Scripted to eliminate all flexibility? Not even close, in my experience.

[alma]

Not strictly scripted. You have all kinds of options now on where to dump rounds so before performing your energy reloads.

[ES13Raven]

Scripted compared to USPSA? No question. Scripted to eliminate all flexibility? Not even close, in my experience.

I agree. Its a good thing that IDPA is scripted. It makes it easier on everyone to avoid PEs.

[BillR1]

Not strictly scripted. You have all kinds of options now on where to dump rounds so before performing your energy reloads.

Thanks for making my point! The elimination of the silly round dumping rule creates more choices on stage planning. If you want to dump at a certain spot and then reload there, feel free. If you'd rather move to the next position first before finishing the mag, that's OK too. If you're really good at LCRs, that's yet another option.

It's shortsighted to pretend that everyone has to shoot the stage exactly the same way, when that's clearly not the case.

[MWP]

LCR?

[BillR1]

LCR?

Loaded Chamber Reload...used to be called a tactical reload or a reload with retention. The new rulebook combined the two types into one category.

[Racinready300ex]

It's shortsighted to pretend that everyone has to shoot the stage exactly the same way, when that's clearly not the case.

Exactly. Sure you have to engage all the targets in correct "priority" and from the correct shooting position. And you must stand still when reloading. But other then that you can do just about anything you want. There has to be at least two places you can reload on alot of stages.

[MWP]

I can't seem to recall many stages that aren't scripted. Even if the directions aren't in the stage briefing, the rules dictate the order things should be done. Maybe someone will go left before right, or plan a reload differently (usually division dependant) but it's the same according to the rules.

It also seems to me that most of the people shooting it prefer it that way.

[BillR1]

It's shortsighted to pretend that everyone has to shoot the stage exactly the same way, when that's clearly not the case.

Exactly. Sure you have to engage all the targets in correct "priority" and from the correct shooting position. And you must stand still when reloading. But other then that you can do just about anything you want. There has to be at least two places you can reload on alot of stages.

I'm sure IDPA seems pretty structured when you're used to a different game with very few rules, but many stages do give quite a bit of flexibility as far as order of target array engagement, reloads, etc. I guess it depends on what you prefer and what you get accustomed to.

[BillR1]

Even if the directions aren't in the stage briefing, the rules dictate the order things should be done. Maybe someone will go left before right, or plan a reload differently (usually division dependant) but it's the same according to the rules.

If having to follow the rules is the "lack of flexibility" that people are speaking of, then I guess it's true.

[Chuck D]

It's shortsighted to pretend that everyone has to shoot the stage exactly the same way, when that's clearly not the case.

Exactly. Sure you have to engage all the targets in correct "priority" and from the correct shooting position. And you must stand still when reloading. But other then that you can do just about anything you want. There has to be at least two places you can reload on alot of stages.

OK...Once I engage the targets in the correct "priority" which controls the shooting aspect of the stage and I must "stand still" when reloading which addresses the reloading component of shooting the stage where else can one "do just about anything they want?"

Surely you don't mean that I'm free to run as fast or as slow as I want.....

[motosapiens]

It's shortsighted to pretend that everyone has to shoot the stage exactly the same way, when that's clearly not the case.

The vast majority of idpa stages I have seen can realistically only be shot 1 way, with occasional very slight variations.

Yes, there are a few very creative folks around here who have designed stages that allow options while still following the IDPA desire for scripted stages, and those are fun too.

Edited May 28, 2014 by motosapiens

[Dkrad1935]

I feel like I am watching someone in a foreign country asking "where is the bathroom" in very loud English. Hahaha

[BillR1]

It's shortsighted to pretend that everyone has to shoot the stage exactly the same way, when that's clearly not the case.

The vast majority of idpa stages I have seen can realistically only be shot 1 way, with occasional very slight variations.

Yes, there are a few very creative folks around here who have designed stages that allow options while still following the IDPA desire for scripted stages, and those are fun too.

I would agree with you on a standards stage. Scenario stages frequently give some flexibility on which arrays to shoot first, etc.

I'm not sure where the "desire for scripted stages" comes from. I don't see that in the rulebook anywhere, and I just looked again. On the contrary, here's a quote from the rulebook:

"1.3.3. Course of Fire Principles

1.3.3.1. One issue critical to the long-term success of this shooting discipline is that problems shooters are asked to solve must reflect self-defense principles. The IDPA founders agreed upon this when they set out to structure IDPA guidelines and principles. IDPA should help promote basic sound gun handling skills and test skills a person would need in a concealed-carry encounter. Requirements such as the use of cover while engaging a target, reloading behind cover, and limiting the number of rounds per string were all based upon that principle."

Since shooters are asked to "solve a problem", is it not reasonable to assume that not everyone will solve the problem the same way? Again, in my experience as an SO, people can and do get pretty creative when shooting a stage. I've learned alot by watching people like this.

[Dkrad1935]

My very brief experience is that shooters want it scripted out. I have been to matches where it was left wide open and I was excited because I thought I could solve it more efficiently than others. But during the walk through people ask questions and force the SO to spell it out.

My guess is that is driven by the desire to avoid PE.

[BillR1]

My very brief experience is that shooters want it scripted out. I have been to matches where it was left wide open and I was excited because I thought I could solve it more efficiently than others. But during the walk through people ask questions and force the SO to spell it out.

My guess is that is driven by the desire to avoid PE.

I know what you mean. I've seen those guys that ask constantly "would this be legal?" "What about this?" I've also shot in several matches where the stage SO said very clearly "I'm NOT going to tell you how to shoot the stage. This is the scenario; shoot it according to IDPA rules." That's really the way it should be, since there's little time for extended explanations and discussions at a big match. The shooters are expected to know the rules.

[motosapiens]

It's shortsighted to pretend that everyone has to shoot the stage exactly the same way, when that's clearly not the case.

The vast majority of idpa stages I have seen can realistically only be shot 1 way, with occasional very slight variations.

Yes, there are a few very creative folks around here who have designed stages that allow options while still following the IDPA desire for scripted stages, and those are fun too.

I would agree with you on a standards stage. Scenario stages frequently give some flexibility on which arrays to shoot first, etc.

I'm not sure where the "desire for scripted stages" comes from. I don't see that in the rulebook anywhere, and I just looked again. On the contrary, here's a quote from the rulebook:

"1.3.3. Course of Fire Principles

1.3.3.1. One issue critical to the long-term success of this shooting discipline is that problems shooters are asked to solve must reflect self-defense principles. The IDPA founders agreed upon this when they set out to structure IDPA guidelines and principles. IDPA should help promote basic sound gun handling skills and test skills a person would need in a concealed-carry encounter. Requirements such as the use of cover while engaging a target, reloading behind cover, and limiting the number of rounds per string were all based upon that principle."

Since shooters are asked to "solve a problem", is it not reasonable to assume that not everyone will solve the problem the same way? Again, in my experience as an SO, people can and do get pretty creative when shooting a stage. I've learned alot by watching people like this.

I'm not talking about standards stages. I'm talking about the hundred-ish scenario stages I have seen.

I appreciate you taking the time to post tho. If it brings you happiness, it doesn't bother me if you continue to be wrong.

[motosapiens]

My very brief experience is that shooters want it scripted out. I have been to matches where it was left wide open and I was excited because I thought I could solve it more efficiently than others. But during the walk through people ask questions and force the SO to spell it out.

My guess is that is driven by the desire to avoid PE.

I know what you mean. I've seen those guys that ask constantly "would this be legal?" "What about this?" I've also shot in several matches where the stage SO said very clearly "I'm NOT going to tell you how to shoot the stage. This is the scenario; shoot it according to IDPA rules." That's really the way it should be, since there's little time for extended explanations and discussions at a big match. The shooters are expected to know the rules.

I'm probably one of those guys, and I ask those questions because I know the rules, but I don't know how that particular SO's tribe interprets the rules.

[BillR1]

I appreciate you taking the time to post tho. If it brings you happiness, it doesn't bother me if you continue to be wrong.

Not a problem...always happy to help clarify using the actual rulebook.

I've never seen any SO "tribalism" myself, and I've shot sanctioned matches in several different states. Maybe I'll get to witness this legendary phenomena first hand one day. It sounds fascinating.

[Racinready300ex]

It's shortsighted to pretend that everyone has to shoot the stage exactly the same way, when that's clearly not the case.

Exactly. Sure you have to engage all the targets in correct "priority" and from the correct shooting position. And you must stand still when reloading. But other then that you can do just about anything you want. There has to be at least two places you can reload on alot of stages.

OK...Once I engage the targets in the correct "priority" which controls the shooting aspect of the stage and I must "stand still" when reloading which addresses the reloading component of shooting the stage where else can one "do just about anything they want?"

Surely you don't mean that I'm free to run as fast or as slow as I want.....

There was some sarcasm in that. lol. I think run or walk about covers it.