Releasing magazine with trigger finger

[Osage]

This is by no means the first time that I have heard of or seen this technique in use, but it is the first time that I have seen an accomplished shooter/trainer advocate for it. I've been shooting for quite a long time and I cannot imagine the technique to actually be faster. I don't see any of the better shooters using the technique but maybe I have just somehow missed it. Do any of you use this technique?

I was somewhat surprised when I saw Ayoob plainly stating that it was quicker and a better technique (April 2014 Guns Magazine, Sig P227 article).

For those with a competitive bent, the magazine release button is convertible and can be moved from the left side of the pistol to the right.... for competitors it does speed up the reload. As southpaws long ago discovered with 1911's and left-side mag release buttons, it's quicker to just bring your trigger finger back out of the triggerguard and punch a button on the same side than to turn your hand as many must to hit a left-side button with their right thumb.

I personally disagree with the technique being faster or a preferred method.

Edited February 18, 2014 by Osage

[thegunnerd]

For lefties it has merit , but i don't see it being faster or better for right handed shooters . I have a thumb release that allows me to do very little movement to drop my mag with my thumb.

[Osage]

Why would it have merit for a left-handed shooter and not a right-handed shooter, assuming of course that you can put the release on either side you want (as he was talking about an ambidextrous release)?

[Steve RA]

If your thumbs are not long enough to depress the mag release without shifting your grip, then it's advantageous to use your trigger finger as you don't shift grip while doing that.

[45dotACP]

Ideally, you don't want to shift your grip to drop the magazine. It has merit for southpaws, but I never saw the use of it. I on the other hand, use my shooting hand middle finger with my glock. Don't even know how I got started doing that, but it works well enough for me. I think the biggest question boils down to "What works best for you?"

I've never used it, but I've heard of some trainers who use it. To each his own I suppose.

[Jshuberg]

It might be faster if a person doesn't have to shift their grip to reach the release, but I'd be careful that it doesn't cause additional problems. A few problems that might happen that immediately come to mind:

1) It would require more dexterity to move the trigger finger into the position to release the mag than adjusting the grip and using the thumb. It may be slightly faster, but the ergonomics don't lend them-self to a trigger finger mag release in the thumb release position. The technique may be more prone to fumbling, especially under stress.

2) It violates the separation of concerns of the fingers of the hand. The trigger finger operates the trigger, the thumb operates the mag release, the middle finger holds the orientation and index of the pistol in the hand, and the ring and pinky fingers prevent the gun from rotating in the hand. Having each weapon-hand finger play a separate and specialized role in operating the firearm helps to prevent errors, fumbling, and optimizes the effectiveness of training.

3) Because the trigger finger is moving during a reload, rather than resting on the frame until after the reload is complete, there is a greater possibility of it prematurely returning to the trigger. In the case where a reload is performed when there is a round in the chamber, returning to the trigger prematurely may result in a negligent discharge. If a person is experimenting with this technique, he should make a point to *always* return his finger to the frame first. Speed will undoubtedly increase with training, but if a person trains on this technique slowly and returns his finger directly to the trigger, under speed he may be contacting the trigger before the reload is complete and weapon on target.

That being said, if it's faster for a person to drop a mag this way, is just as safe as a conventional reload, and doesn't seem to interfere with trigger control during rapid reload drills, it seems reasonable that it might be better for some people than the conventional thumb release.

Edited February 19, 2014 by Jshuberg

[alma]

Ideally, you don't want to shift your grip to drop the magazine. It has merit for southpaws, but I never saw the use of it. I on the other hand, use my shooting hand middle finger with my glock. Don't even know how I got started doing that, but it works well enough for me. I think the biggest question boils down to "What works best for you?"

I've never used it, but I've heard of some trainers who use it. To each his own I suppose.

I am pretty sure TGO shifts his grip to hit the mag release. Works well for those with smaller hands. I do it for better leverage on stiff mag releases.

[TimH]

I am a lefty that definitely uses the trigger finger to activate the mag release. I don't shift the gun at all.

I also know of a few righty shooters that have switched to the right side safety to do the same action and they like it a lot.

Best part about it is that it's hard to get called for finger in the trigger during a reload! LOL

And yes, TGO shifts the gun a lot to manipulate the mag release! It obviously doesn't affect him though!

[Petshopshooter]

I always felt pistols were one of the few things I have held that seemed to work better for a left hander. Stage designers seem to be some left handed hating mofos so it evens out.

Bruce

[Osage]

My primary concern with the technique is that I would be purposefully moving my trigger finger in the same direction that I would otherwise be pressing the trigger. Perhaps it is more of a concern during reloads with a round still in the chamber, but even during a slide lock reload moving that trigger finger around can lend itself to a negligent discharge.

Aside from the safety aspect, I really don't see how it can be much faster - a wash maybe, but not faster. You would have to have some very good dexterity to move your trigger finger aft without also shifting at least your middle finger. Seems that when you move the trigger finger back forward that you would also have to re-position the middle finger to reacquire the same grip.

I do realize that by using the thumb one must necessarily shift their grip as well - very few people can positively actuate that mag release with the thumb without shifting - but that's where it is at least a wash. When necessarily rotating the weapon I believe that depressing with the thumb is more positive than straining a trigger finger back to press. No doubt there are a few exceptions.

Being that at worst it is a bit slower and less positive, and at best the same speed yet forcing you to manipulate the trigger finger during a reload, I'm reluctant to recommend the technique. I do realize that many lefties have become more adept at the technique. I do however stand by my original statement that I was surprised to see a knowledgeable instructor advocating for the technique and flatly stating that it is faster.

[Neomet]

As a lefty I initially used my trigger finger then got a reversed mag release to use my thumb. For me the thumb just works better. YMMV.

[Bouboy02]

I'm a lefty and have tried using my trigger finger to release the mag but for me it is more comfortable to use my middle finger to press the magazine release. I have tried flipping the mag release to the right side of the pistol but since I have small hands I really have to tweak my grip to be able to press it with my thumb.

[OPENB]

I'm also left handed. I use my middle left finger to press the the mag release. It usually a case of adapting & overcoming for left handers, as most tools are not designed for us.

[frankie]

i use my trigger finger to release mag. I'm right handed and it works very well for me, no need to shift gun in my hand. yes i have had some ro's yell trigger or finger because my finger was not straight and on the slide. Talking with the ro later, he realized what I was doing and said that he should have been looking closer.

[madmike283]

Righty here and I run my mag release on the right side. I have short thumbs I guess and I can't reach many left side releases easily. I switched to the right side and use my middle finger as well. It's more comfy than my index finger.

[Ben Stoeger]

This is by no means the first time that I have heard of or seen this technique in use, but it is the first time that I have seen an accomplished shooter/trainer advocate for it. I've been shooting for quite a long time and I cannot imagine the technique to actually be faster. I don't see any of the better shooters using the technique but maybe I have just somehow missed it. Do any of you use this technique?

I was somewhat surprised when I saw Ayoob plainly stating that it was quicker and a better technique (April 2014 Guns Magazine, Sig P227 article).

For those with a competitive bent, the magazine release button is convertible and can be moved from the left side of the pistol to the right.... for competitors it does speed up the reload. As southpaws long ago discovered with 1911's and left-side mag release buttons, it's quicker to just bring your trigger finger back out of the triggerguard and punch a button on the same side than to turn your hand as many must to hit a left-side button with their right thumb.

I personally disagree with the technique being faster or a preferred method.

In my opinion it is slower and I can't imagine why it would be preferred. I don't think there are many if any upper echelon shooters using that technique. I have never once seen someone using the trigger finger to release the magazine where they were as good as someone using the thumb, let alone better. I look at reload times in classes and get a few people that think this is faster. It never is.

[open17]

My wife has tiny hands, and I've set up two 9mm 1911's and her current M&P Pro 9L for trigger finger mag release.

I've shot Lisa Munson's Limited gun---and know for a fact that it is set up with a right side mag release. Doesn't

seem to slow her down.

I've got fairly short thumbs, and have to give most guns a little flip to hit the release, but still prefer a left

side release.

[B45C22]

In my opinion, gun writers are sometimes guilty of being completely ignorant of actual competitive shooting and the habits of the top competitors. SOME have a wealth of general gun knowledge, but I certainly don't go to them for tips on playing the USPSA game.

That being said, I had a span of time where I was guilty of having a few AD's during reloads. It scared me a lot and I went to a right side mag release to make sure that my trigger finger had something else to be doing during a reload. I could reload almost as fast that way but never AS fast. I eventually switched back and have been back to thumb releasing for the past 10 years or so.

[Osage]

In my opinion, gun writers are sometimes guilty of being completely ignorant of actual competitive shooting and the habits of the top competitors. SOME have a wealth of general gun knowledge, but I certainly don't go to them for tips on playing the USPSA game.

While I generally agree with that sentiment, Massad Ayoob is a very accomplished shooter. I believe he is a 5 division IDPA Master, with many titles to his credit in IDPA and other disciplines. Like him or not, he is one of the preeminent names in the shooter training industry. His statement wasn't USPSA specific either, but a blanket statement.

If it had been most any other gun writer's name attached to that statement, I would have simply said, "Yea, whatever. Par for the course."

Edited February 22, 2014 by Osage

[guns_and_labs]

It might be faster, if one had trained enough with it.

I ran across a gunsmith at a match a while ago that had developed a right hand release for a 1911, and made a very convincing case. Convincing enough that I tried it. I could not, however, undo three decades of muscle memory, so it never worked for me.

I tried it again with an H&K USP, and, with that platform, it was quicker for me. Mostly because my thumb could never find the left side release (or I would push instead of flick).

[tigerkf]

Note to self: Ignore what Ayoob says! DONE!

[Red Ryder]

Coincidently, without ever reading this thread prior to this morning, I just found and installed a quality right sided mag release button. I had an XDM that introduced my hand to the concept but I never really practiced it enough. It felt uncomfortable and strained my trigger finger to hit the button.

I recently picked up an STI Trojan and I hate the mag release because I have small hands. I ordered a lighter spring for the stiff mag release but I still have to shift the gun too much for my liking to do a mag change. Lucky for me, the location of the right sided mag release button is PERfect for my trigger finger to reach it without shifting the grip at all from a very firm grip. Bottom line is that we all do things that "work" for us. No 2 GM's are alike. They all do something different. So who cares what the upper echelon shooters are doing with the mag buttons. I sincerely doubt that how you hit the mag release button is stopping you from that M or GM classification.

[Jshuberg]

One thing I would suggest, with a chambered round and an empty mag time yourself. At the beep drop the mag, insert a fresh one and fire the round. Quite often what feels faster is actually slower when you add a timer.

[SSGJohnV]

On my single stack a cutout for my thumb really helped with not shifting my grip for the reload. I would hate to have to relearn a technique after doing that for the last 5-7 years.

[Ssanders224]

Right side mag release:

After watching dean run that drill, it would be hard to argue that activating the mag release with your trigger finger hurts your time.

However, I don't necissarily recommend it. Like Ben said, 9 times out of 10 it is slower. Dean is the outlier.

Activating the mag release is not where the time is on a reload. It should be a parrallel task that is happening while you are retrieving a new mag, and should take less time than retrieving the new mag.