Notch & Post VS. Red Dot for Open Class

[Moltke]

I'm a standard notch and post shooter and was wondering how competitive shooting a completely Open class gun would be in Open, just without a red dot. Has anyone tried this? Is shooting a red dot sight really that incredibly advantageous over notch & post?

To be clear this is not something I plan on doing, or testing myself because I only shoot in Production, but the other advantages of Open class would still be present if one did try it - holster, gun with large magwell, comp, high capacity magazine, everything but the dot. Mostly this is a question of vague curiousity that I figured would be best answered here by folks with alot of experience shooting a RDS on a pistol.

Edited December 27, 2013 by Moltke

[Sarge]

Have you ever shot an open gun with a dot? Usually when I let somebody shoot mine they say it almost seems like cheating.

The dot is faster by a whole bunch

[ivan]

"incredibly advantageous": perhaps not.

"advantageous": guaranteed yes.

In Open Division it's about small increments of advantage. The Red Dot is an advantage on longer/tight shots.

Also: for those competitors without as much "iron sight time" as you, it's much easier to learn and shoot a red dot well, since you don't need the mental ability to maintain focus on the front sight... with a red dot, your brain perceives the dot to be on the target, so you get to focus on the target.

-ivan-

[MVZ]

Back in 2000 / 2001 Jerry Barnhart tried shoting an Open gun without a DOT at the Nationals. Didn't work out too well. Never tried again

[Shadyscott999]

I'm a standard notch and post shooter and was wondering how competitive shooting a completely Open class gun would be in Open, just without a red dot. Has anyone tried this? Is shooting a red dot sight really that incredibly advantageous over notch & post?

To be clear this is not something I plan on doing, or testing myself because I only shoot in Production, but the other advantages of Open class would still be present if one did try it - holster, gun with large magwell, comp, high capacity magazine, everything but the dot. Mostly this is a question of vague curiousity that I figured would be best answered here by folks with alot of experience shooting a RDS on a pistol.

I think it is an incredible advantage. To be competitive in Open, you need every little boost you can get.

[Moltke]

Have you ever shot an open gun with a dot? Usually when I let somebody shoot mine they say it almost seems like cheating.

The dot is faster by a whole bunch

No I have not, hence the hypothetical.

[Moltke]

"incredibly advantageous": perhaps not.

"advantageous": guaranteed yes.

In Open Division it's about small increments of advantage. The Red Dot is an advantage on longer/tight shots.

Also: for those competitors without as much "iron sight time" as you, it's much easier to learn and shoot a red dot well, since you don't need the mental ability to maintain focus on the front sight... with a red dot, your brain perceives the dot to be on the target, so you get to focus on the target.

-ivan-

Maintaining a constant target focus is good but what about seeing the dot lift? Shouldn't you be looking at the dot and watch it rise off target? Or is peripheral vision enough.

[BSeevers]

I can't believe I'm answering this Hypothetical?

Let's use good old fashioned facts Its an incredible advantage. How many shot the Open Nationals without a dot? Excluding those that broke I gonna go out on a limb and say none. If there was one that did you realize that they finally took away rotary dialing and VHS tapes so there is always a hold out for the good old days, but we evolved into red dots because they are way more faster and accurate

I think people see a Limited GM take HOA at a club and think the gun is a non factor. Skill is in there too. That same GM is not gonna bring a .40 STIn in Open to an Area/State. Well unless he is not there to win which to me seems kinda silly to me

[Moltke]

I can't believe I'm answering this Hypothetical?

Let's use good old fashioned facts Its an incredible advantage. How many shot the Open Nationals without a dot? Excluding those that broke I gonna go out on a limb and say none. If there was one that did you realize that they finally took away rotary dialing and VHS tapes so there is always a hold out for the good old days, but we evolved into red dots because they are way more faster and accurate

I think people see a Limited GM take HOA at a club and think the gun is a non factor. Skill is in there too. That same GM is not gonna bring a .40 STIn in Open to an Area/State. Well unless he is not there to win which to me seems kinda silly to me

That's not the case, it was purely a hypothetical. I understand gear is important which is why I'm asking the question.

Obviously a trigger can be lightened by X pounds, a comp can reduce muzzle jump by a %, a huge magazine can cut the need to reload in half, so if a red dot is so incredible - can you quantify it? Can it allow you to shoot some % faster or more % accurate than irons?

Again, the only pistol that I have any significant experience is an almost stock Glock but if I had a race gun with a huge magazine, magwell, light trigger, oversized controls, specialized holster, compensator, but didn't have an optic... that would all theoretically be significant upgrades.

So I am curious about the capability of a RDS on a pistol and what it brings to the table. If your Open gun still had everything it currently has except the optic was traded for notch and post sights, how much slower would it be?

[BSeevers]

I can't believe I'm answering this Hypothetical?

Let's use good old fashioned facts Its an incredible advantage. How many shot the Open Nationals without a dot? Excluding those that broke I gonna go out on a limb and say none. If there was one that did you realize that they finally took away rotary dialing and VHS tapes so there is always a hold out for the good old days, but we evolved into red dots because they are way more faster and accurate

I think people see a Limited GM take HOA at a club and think the gun is a non factor. Skill is in there too. That same GM is not gonna bring a .40 STIn in Open to an Area/State. Well unless he is not there to win which to me seems kinda silly to me

That's not the case, it was purely a hypothetical. I understand gear is important which is why I'm asking the question.

Obviously a trigger can be lightened by X pounds, a comp can reduce muzzle jump by a %, a huge magazine can cut the need to reload in half, so if a red dot is so incredible - can you quantify it? Can it allow you to shoot some % faster or more % accurate than irons?

Again, the only pistol that I have any significant experience is an almost stock Glock but if I had a race gun with a huge magazine, magwell, light trigger, oversized controls, specialized holster, compensator, but didn't have an optic... that would all theoretically be significant upgrades.

So I am curious about the capability of a RDS on a pistol and what it brings to the table. If your Open gun still had everything it currently has except the optic was traded for notch and post sights, how much slower would it be?

On an average stage I shoot Limited around 2 seconds slower. I know this because we have clubs that let you reshoot the same stages for fun. If it's 20 head shots or small poppers at 20 yards of course the difference is much larger.

I think some might think 2 sec is nothing but as you get fast and accurate everything counts so you can't afford to be behind your competition. I would shoot Open without a RDS Last, I mean I would give up Trigger, Comp, 30 rds, magwell, extended mag release before RDS, Oh wait those 6 are really all that's on a Open gun that counts with the first 4, 99% of the pie

Forgot trigger since a Limited gun can have the same trigger. Of course not a Glock but have you tried a CZ or XD tricked out?

Oh I have to add for a new shooter the difference might be HUGH

Since Open is yea easier a new shooter might run a stage in say 35 seconds no Mikes, 20 points down while in Limited he would run it say 42 seconds with 3 Mikes 30 down

Edited December 27, 2013 by BSeevers

[Sarge]

Moltke,

I know you are just trying to get some info and nobody is giving you a hard time about it. But like I asked earlier, "Have you ever shot an Open gun with a dot? I asked that because, until you do, you are never going to get the info you are looking for. It's not really relevant to try to figure out that a dot is 50% faster and 90% more accurate than irons because the shooter plays a huge part in it. The example I use is, I can shoot a classifier in Production and Open and probably be 50% faster in Open. That all sounds great until Bill Seevers shoots it 5 seconds faster than me! lol. I'm older and slower and was having a hard time seeing iron sights so I got into Open for more enjoyment. But I shoot with some 25-40 year olds who shoot Open and they move so fast it's not even funny. They are waaay faster with a dot.

With a dot you can make shots that others won't even try such as long range steel, headshots, between walls and barrels, etc, etc.... so it's really hard to quantify.

[caspian guy]

"incredibly advantageous": perhaps not.

"advantageous": guaranteed yes.

In Open Division it's about small increments of advantage. The Red Dot is an advantage on longer/tight shots.

Also: for those competitors without as much "iron sight time" as you, it's much easier to learn and shoot a red dot well, since you don't need the mental ability to maintain focus on the front sight... with a red dot, your brain perceives the dot to be on the target, so you get to focus on the target.

-ivan-

Maintaining a constant target focus is good but what about seeing the dot lift? Shouldn't you be looking at the dot and watch it rise off target? Or is peripheral vision enough.

Nope you look at the targets... the scope presents the target and dot on the same plane. You don't have to look at dot to see it.

[kneelingatlas]

You can simplify your comparison, a Limited gun is the same as an Open gun except without the comp and dot (both almost always only reload once, so the big stick is much less significant); ask Open shooters "comp or dot? you have to give one up" I'd put money on the vast majority keeping the dot.

[BSeevers]

You can simplify your comparison, a Limited gun is the same as an Open gun except without the comp and dot (both almost always only reload once, so the big stick is much less significant); ask Open shooters "comp or dot? you have to give one up" I'd put money on the vast majority keeping the dot.

Don't sell the capacity short. We also get to reload where we want. Watch Limited shooters counting their rds reloading at 20 etc....

I have basically 2 kinds of stages. If its over say 18-25 rds and dont care how many rds it is cause I have 6+ extra in the bigstick OR I generally start with bigstick and reload where I want not when my standard mag requires me to or when I miss a Steel and mess up my 20 rd count. This happens a lot in Limited because of arrays and misses. Of course it doesn't always follow this "format" but I hope you see my point. I agree that in general Limited reloads at same place but we get a little advantage

Edited December 27, 2013 by BSeevers

[Supermoto]

The advantage of open depends on the stage. The harder the shot, the more advantageous the dot is. More targets favors the big stick. Medium to far target, the comp helps.

Everything in open helps, nothing hurts

[Moltke]

So it's a definite advantage however unquantifiable with the biggest factor being the shooter, and I'll never truly understand until I do it for myself?

Not the answer I was hoping for but okay.

And its generally agreed upon to think that someone who is equally competent with a RDS as they are with standard sights, will always be faster & more accurate with a RDS?

This was the answer I expected from most, but curious to see if anyone had broke the mold.

Thanks.

[Supermoto]

And its generally agreed upon to think that someone who is equally competent with a RDS as they are with standard sights, will always be faster & more accurate with a RDS?

Up to 10 yards, I will be limited by my trigger finger. I might be a little faster with a limited gun because my draw always seems to be slightly faster with limited. 12+ yard, my open gun will is faster. Better hits will depend on my visual patience.

[sperman]

Didn't Vogel win the Pro-Am a few years ago shooting open with iron sights? I know it's a different game, and a feat that probably won't be repeated anytime soon, but impressive none the less.

[Alaskapopo]

The Dot is a huge advantage. Putting the target and the sighting reference in the same focal plane is huge.
Pat

[AICS308]

The biggest difference is that the focus with a RDS is on the target. Perfect focus on the target, the red dot moves on to the target. Think of a Texas Star at 20 yards. With the RDS your focus is on the plate not on the front sight.

[rishii]

Back when I started all open guns had iron sights, except we called them full house compguns and they were in 45 acp

Then someone (i think it was Barnhart) won the nationals with a with a red dot, an iron sight open gun has not been competitive since

[Chuck Anderson]

It is quantifiable if someone cared to do it. Set up a series of courses and shoot them with two guns. The trick is finding someone who wants to take the time to do it. It will also vary by course. Short wide open stages favor the iron sight gun more than long tight shots. Weak hand stages also seem easier with irons to me. But that's because it takes me longer to find the dot because I don't practice enough with it.

[Sarge]

It is quantifiable if someone cared to do it. Set up a series of courses and shoot them with two guns. The trick is finding someone who wants to take the time to do it.

It's only quantifiable to an individual if THEY take the time to jump through all the hoops. What works for you most likely will not work for me.

[Guest]

Back when I started all open guns had iron sights, except we called them full house compguns and they were in 45 acp

Then someone (i think it was Barnhart) won the nationals with a with a red dot, an iron sight open gun has not been competitive since

Jerry Barnhart won the nationals in 1990 using a red dot and there was a lot swirl about them, pro and con. Lots of folks weren't convinced. By 1992 there was no doubt that red-dots were the way to go. I ran irons on .45 and .38 super compensated guns (remember there was only one division back then), and added a tasco red dot to my compensated single stack .38 super and it was a game changer. The problem was that it was a game changer for everybody. During the transitional years C class shooters started shooting B class scores, decent B class shooters started shooting A class scores, etc. I think as a general rule for a D-B class shooter a red dot had the potential to bump them up a full class. Most A class and above were already pretty proficient with irons, so the improvements were less dramatic for the upper class shooters. If you were in the 80-84% range in A class it could get you to M (there was no GM class at that point). If you were already a solid master then you pretty much had to make the switch to red dots (and then to hi-caps) to just keep your footing. However, as the upper tier masters made the switch and got the red-dot wired the classifier scores then began to normalize around the red-dot guns. I'll say this, shooting the 50 yard standards was a lot easier with a dot than irons!

Anyway, these are my recollections about the red-dot part of the equipment races.

[Shadyscott999]

Didn't Vogel win the Pro-Am a few years ago shooting open with iron sights? I know it's a different game, and a feat that probably won't be repeated anytime soon, but impressive none the less.

Yes he did in 2012.