2-Gun: Here to stay or Fad?

[Jesse Tischauser]

Tell him a semi auto is way better for hunting. But there are a lot of enthusiasts just like your buddy which is exactly why try created the USCA.

Edited December 4, 2013 by Jesse Tischauser

[SinistralRifleman]

If more 2 gun matches were available I wouldn't shoot 3 gun much or at all.

I've been saying this for years:

http://sinistralrifleman.com/2011/04/27/the-case-for-riflepistol-matches/

I wish USCA would have went with existing equipment division rules rather than being so nuanced, it's just another reason for people not to participate.

The 2GACM match in Tucson here standardized equipment rules around IMGA minus shotgun so any existing competitor can participate without swapping gear around.

[kurtm]

Yep! I would have headed to Florida in a heart beat, but my limited gear that is recognized as limited in all the other action sports I shoot both here and abroad suddenly wasn't " limited enough". It was the equipment rules and nothing else that kept me away! I can shoot any kind of scoring and don't mind the IDPA based stuff, but the equipment divisions? No thanks!

[kellymc]

I'd like to see more pistol shotgun matches .Id rather not carry the rifle expressly when some of the targets are at pistol or knife range.

my

.02

[P.E. Kelley]

Yep! I would have headed to Florida in a heart beat, but my limited gear that is recognized as limited in all the other action sports I shoot both here and abroad suddenly wasn't " limited enough". It was the equipment rules and nothing else that kept me away! I can shoot any kind of scoring and don't mind the IDPA based stuff, but the equipment divisions? No thanks!

One of the main reasons I did not work harder at going to this match.

[Jesse Tischauser]

Yep! I would have headed to Florida in a heart beat, but my limited gear that is recognized as limited in all the other action sports I shoot both here and abroad suddenly wasn't " limited enough". It was the equipment rules and nothing else that kept me away! I can shoot any kind of scoring and don't mind the IDPA based stuff, but the equipment divisions? No thanks!

One of the main reasons I did not work harder at going to this match.

The divisions were weird! The 30 round mag limit was weird especially since we all just ran coupled mags to deal with it. Kinda killed the point. I get what they are trying to do with the LEO/MIL division but as with any restriction we are gonna game it the best we can cause it is just a game after all.

[Jman]

Is it out of the question that the USPSA would hold sanctioned 2-Gun matches? Or...why wouldnt they?

I joined the USCA to support more shooting. I would hope its governing body will evolve and adapt.

Edited December 6, 2013 by Jman

[Langenator]

If I were retired and ran a range I think the best schedule would be.

1st Sunday USPSA pistol match.

2nd Sunday Carbine Match

3rd Sunday Shotgun match

4th Sunday Three gun match.

Pat

Throw in a High Power match on the 5th weekend in months that have one, and this sounds awesome (well, except to my wallet.)

[mpeltier]

Yep! I would have headed to Florida in a heart beat, but my limited gear that is recognized as limited in all the other action sports I shoot both here and abroad suddenly wasn't " limited enough". It was the equipment rules and nothing else that kept me away! I can shoot any kind of scoring and don't mind the IDPA based stuff, but the equipment divisions? No thanks!

Hey Amigo, just curious what exactly was the equipment deal breaker for you with respect to limited division? My Tac-optics set up was unchanged from any match I've ever shot with the exception of the 30rd mag rule (which was no biggy to me as that's what I use 90% of the time anyway). What would they have to change to get you to Florida?

[kurtm]

Just pull up their iron sight rules and read them.

[mpeltier]

Just pull up their iron sight rules and read them.

So the deal breaker is no low mas bolt carriers?

Got it. I agree it seems goofy. That rule should only apply to Mil/le I assume.

Edited December 7, 2013 by mpeltier

[Jesse Tischauser]

Just pull up their iron sight rules and read them.

With your ability in irons and the generous target size minimums you could shoot in TO and win.

Edited December 7, 2013 by Jesse Tischauser

[kurtm]

Ahh, I doubt that Jesse, especially if you or Kalani were shooting Tac Optic!

Not just the lightened carrier Mark, read the pistol part of those rules as well!

Edited December 7, 2013 by kurtm

[mike4045]

Yep! I would have headed to Florida in a heart beat, but my limited gear that is recognized as limited in all the other action sports I shoot both here and abroad suddenly wasn't " limited enough". It was the equipment rules and nothing else that kept me away! I can shoot any kind of scoring and don't mind the IDPA based stuff, but the equipment divisions? No thanks!

One of the main reasons I did not work harder at going to this match.

It was a big factor in not trying to shoot match. I had the vacation time. Went to production nats instead.

[gose]

Is it out of the question that the USPSA would hold sanctioned 2-Gun matches? Or...why wouldnt they?

I joined the USCA to support more shooting. I would hope its governing body will evolve and adapt.

There are USPSA 2-gun matches around here, nothing saying you cant hold USPSA, or IMGA, 2-gun matches within the respective rule sets as it is.

Knock yourself out, I'm sure people will come shoot two gun matches no matter what the combination of guns happens to be, there are enough people that dislike each and everyone of the three

Personally, since I like all three guns, there isnt really any combination that I wouldnt go shoot.

[jkrispies]

I'll take pretty much any combination of guns, or shotguns or rifle over a handgun only match and I think that there's definitely room for two gun matches, no matter what the combinations are. However, the easiest way to get it going would be to just use rules that are already available but just drop one of the three guns. I dont really see the point of coming up with something new that tries too hard to be different, IMGA works, why not just stick with that?

Thank you for saying exactly what I was thinking!

+ another 1

Apologies for getting in late on this conversation--and please don't read any of this as an argument against 3-gun in any way, shape, or form--but I would be thrilled if USPSA recognized 2-gun for a couple of reasons:

1. I think the USPSA rules for Limited and Tac Ops 3-gun have nailed the equipment equation perfectly, along with scoring and everything else. I applaud any other organizations who want to join the mix with their own spin on rules--equipment and otherwise--but as far as rules go, to me USPSA doesn't have anything broken that needs to be fixed... other than for somebody up top to push a magic button that says rifle/pistol matches can officially move forward.

2. Personally, I'm steadfastly building my "kit" for 3-gun, yet I frankly don't see myself getting involved as much as I'd like for another year or two because I can't afford to jump in with an M2/VM +loading system for a long while, and then I'll need to train with the new equipment to feel safe enough to compete. Now, if it were just rifle and pistol, I'm good to go right now and I wouldn't bother with shotgun due to what I'll point out in #3 below. So, in the meanwhile... I'll continue practicing for another year or two at pistol with regular USPSA matches and my own rifle practice on the side till I have my SG equipment squared up. Okay, whatever, but I'd much rather build my skills in real 2-gun matches.

3. I'm only observing 3-gun from afar at the moment, but I have to say that with MANY of the shotgun stages I've seen, I think to myself, "Crap, why couldn't they have just shot that stationary clay or steel with a bullet?" How often are clays in the air, or rolled on the ground like in Sporting Clays? Short of that, what makes these "shotgun stages" other than the fact that the match designer needed to call something "shotgun" and ruled out pistol use in order to get that third gun into the mix? C'mon guys, just turn those matches into 2-gun so the rest of us can play!!!

I'll say what I think A LOT of non-participating 3-gun wannabe's would say-- if 2-gun with rifle/pistol were an option, I would have been in a year ago. Furthermore, I would put my funds (from not having to buy a shotgun plus accouterments) and practice time (from not having to get safe enough with that shotgun under stress) into the two guns I really want to shoot: pistol and rifle.

Ultimately, I think it's just an easy and effective way to bring more shooters in.

My $.02, nothing more.

[Chuck Anderson]

Is it out of the question that the USPSA would hold sanctioned 2-Gun matches? Or...why wouldnt they? .

They are allowed now. Just talked about it this weekend. The MG rule book covers any combo of two or three of the guns, or rifle/shotgun only matches. Just gotta have a club that wants to out them on. Go for it.

[Jman]

StealthyBlagga, Could we run a 2 gun shoot along with the regular 3 gun match? Just another scoring column...right?

[StealthyBlagga]

StealthyBlagga, Could we run a 2 gun shoot along with the regular 3 gun match? Just another scoring column...right?

We do this a few times a year with our "shotgun optional" matches. The problem is that a lot of our monthly matches have shotgun stages that would either be super-easy with pistol (unfair advantage) or unsafe (e.g. flying clays). Anyone can come to our matches and opt to skip the shotgun stages, but of course this would make them uncompetitive. However, I am mindful of this market demand, so I will be trying to incorporate more pistol options at our matches.

[srv656s]

I'm really late to the thread, but just noticed it. I'm new to shooting in matches and have been shooting in USCA 2-gun matches for the last year. I did a couple USPSA matches prior to the USCA and have found USCA to be a nice way to get in to multi-gun shooting. I think eventually I might try 3-gun, but I really have no interest in shotguns so haven't made it a priority. I think a lot of people don't get in to shooting sports because of the high barriers to entry and because it's intimidating. The people I've shot with at matches have always been super helpful for the most part, but when it's all new to you, it's very stressful and nobody wants to mess up. Especially when a mess up in this sport could be deadly. 2-gun is a nice way to get in to multi-gun shooting since a lot of guys have semi-auto rifles and handguns anyways. Most don't have to buy special equipment to compete and one less gun makes it less complicated and expensive.

[69CanaryCamaro]

Late to the party but a friend and I just observed a 3 gun match last weekend. It was great and we were instantly hooked. The only problem is neither of us had a shotgun. We both have nice ar's and a couple pistols each but not shotie. This group said you can shoot 2 gun but out of close to 100 people there were only 2 guys shooting 2 gun. We would much rather compete with 50-60 vs 2. You have to pay to play and this is definitely cheaper than racing cars (my previous fix) and chasing women (who doesn't like to chase women). I should be picking up my shotgun in the next couple weeks and my friend will be using mine until he can get his.

I agree it would be great to include more 2 gun matches but as long as there are more competitors in 3 gun, everyone will eventually gravitate to that. I have no problem buying a shotgun but I would have rather spent that $700-$1000 on ammo and range expenses.

[Jman]

Not sure I understand your post...

There are not "more competitors in 3-gun". Just more 3-gun matches.

If your club put on an 2-gun match next month...there would be the same 100 entries PLUS a dozen or more people who

own just a practical handgun and rifle. That group of people is a gigantic number and (for the most part) an untapped

market of club/match revenue. And no, everyone will not "gravitate to" 3-gun.

[Stlhead]

What about rifle and steak knife matches? Everyone has steak knives, think of the possible competitors that we could tap with a match that only required steak knives and rifles! The reason that there are more three gun matches than 2 gun matches right now is simple, people want to shoot 3 gun. When they clamor for 2 gun the market will fill the niche. There is not some vast 3 gun conspiracy attempting to quash the 2 gun movement. If you wants some hot two gun action then put on some matches! As for club revenue, I spend 8 to 10 hours a day working on that whole revenue thing you speak of, I want my hobbies to be revenue free. I don't join a shooting club to host bake sales, I join to shoot.

Pistol matches are fun, rifle and pistol, more fun, rifle shotgun and pistol even more fun, more guns equals more fun. I want to shoot more guns not less.

[Jman]

Yes. Plenty of room for all. No one is looking to replace a discipline here, so relax. I shoot my smoothbores better than my rifles and pistols. Way better.

I am simply stating that we should not be so shortsighted in acknowledging the huge potential of 2-gun practical matches. Many (not all) of these shooters will

join the ranks of 3-gun. This, by any definition (steak knife aside) is a good thing.

[10mmauto]

I'm curious what folks thoughts are on 2-gun (rifle/pistol) especially with the USCA match just held this past weekend. For the record I was not there, but have seen the videos starting to find their way to youtube.

Personally I'm not a fan because I like shotgun and really only bought an AR to get into 3-gun. Without the whole package of all 3-guns, I probably would have just stuck with the pistol sports. I personally think it only appeals to people who aren't dedicated enough to learn the shotgun skill set.

On the other hand our local club, MN 3-gun Group, does do one 2-gun a year that has been historically popular. It does draw some USPSA shooters who are scared of shotguns, but overall its pretty much the same 3gun crowd that turns out for it.

What do you folks think? Is 2-gun going to grow legs, be an off-shoot/ non-mainstream sport like the tactical shotgun matches...or will it one day over shadow 3-gun?

That explains it. I don't dislike the shotgun, I'm scared of it!