v1911 Posted October 27, 2013 Share Posted October 27, 2013 (edited) I need to re-examine this rule. If I even shuffle a foot while reloading I get the finger. Edit: 3.9.4. Advancing or moving while reloading behind cover is defined as either lifting a foot off the ground or sliding a foot along the ground. The shooter may pivot on one foot or move the torso, as long as the pivot foot does not lift or slide. Ok, how am I suppose to pivot and not slide a foot or lift it off the ground? Can someone paint me a picture where this happens and you don't get the finger? Edited October 27, 2013 by v1911 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted October 28, 2013 Author Share Posted October 28, 2013 Lots of PEs called yesterday at the NM state match for reloads. I didn't get one, but saw several. They explained it before the match that if you move BOTH feet at all while doing a reload, the finger came out. Moving ONE foot was OK. Not a big deal to me at all. I shot the Liberty match over the weekend. Lot's of PE's there too, they were calling it if you moved either foot. I got one for starting reload on the way to cover and not stopping at cover. I proceeded all the way to the next shooting position(1 more step) which I thought was okay. I guess you start the reload moving stop at cover finish reloading then I could take the final step to P2 to engage last target. It's going to take a bit for me to get used to that idea. I may just not start reloads in the open, that will keep it simiple. Looking at the results I counted 25 DNF's. I'm guessing almost all were DQ's. I know a few failed chrony, I know a few where finger. They also had a detailed equipment check so some could have been there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillR1 Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 I need to re-examine this rule. If I even shuffle a foot while reloading I get the finger. Edit: 3.9.4. Advancing or moving while reloading behind cover is defined as either lifting a foot off the ground or sliding a foot along the ground. The shooter may pivot on one foot or move the torso, as long as the pivot foot does not lift or slide. Ok, how am I suppose to pivot and not slide a foot or lift it off the ground? Can someone paint me a picture where this happens and you don't get the finger? Yep, that does seem confusing. The MD told us it was similar to a basketball traveling violation. If you lifted the pivot foot, the finger came out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Model19 Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 Good thing I was a Fencer back in High School. The lunge might come in handy again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryT Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 Lots given out at the GA state match this weekend. I got two for lifting one foot as I hit the slide release. "Pivot" foot never left the ground or slid. Not sure how an SO can see the gun and foot at the same time at speed. Hate this rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horus Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 Oh the joy of this new rule Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tindjin Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 Us SOs were told at the NM state shoot this weekend to use the "basketball" rule. Actually saw very few issues with it on my stage. Our MD said the regional director expected there to be a clarification on the reloading rule to be out soon. As an SO it is a bit annoying, I would rather be watching the reload to make sure it's safe and no finger violation than checking for foot movement during it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Koski Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 The NM state match a couple days ago used the basketball rule. It worked quite well. Tin - Your scorekeeper should be doing the bulk of the work on cover calls and reloading calls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macgulley Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 Does anyone have any idea why the powers that be felt that this rule was necessary? What unsafe, unsportsmanlike or unfair action was supposed to be eliminated by this rule? I'm just at a loss as to the thinking behind rules like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbarker13 Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 Does anyone have any idea why the powers that be felt that this rule was necessary? What unsafe, unsportsmanlike or unfair action was supposed to be eliminated by this rule? I'm just at a loss as to the thinking behind rules like this. They say Navy Seals and other tactical types told them that they would never "leave a position without a fully-charged weapon." (This, I offer straight from an email exchange I had with Joyce Wilson, executive director of IDPA) . Somehow, IDPA interpreted this to mean that we should never move while reloading. But if IDPA really cared about what these Navy Seals said - we should be requiring shooters to reload every time they change positions. That would of course be problematic for any stage with multiple shooting positions - since we can only carry 2 spare mags. The other theory some of us have is that some elements within IDPA want to draw a more distinct line between IDPA and USPSA, where no one cares when, where or even if you reload. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbcman Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 Lots given out at the GA state match this weekend. I got two for lifting one foot as I hit the slide release. "Pivot" foot never left the ground or slid. Not sure how an SO can see the gun and foot at the same time at speed. Hate this rule. Yep, I got one for moving on a reload during the all strong hand stage. Sure, it was wrong and I deserved it---but MAN was it a good feeling 3 seconds earned. Felt like freedom LOL Might be of interest to some, the SOs at the GA match would let you initiate a reload in the open and complete it behind cover while moving. They just didn't want you to make a shot after initiating the open reload until you was behind cover. The IN State SOs handled it the same way. Sounds like a guy needs to check with each SO on each stage of a match to be sure. Probably doesn't matter for most, but as I shoot revolver there is a good chance I'll go empty in the open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
v1911 Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 Correct. You can initiate a reload on the move while in the open and headed to cover, but you may not engage the next target until you are behind cover. The whole pivot foot thing still grinds my gears. There definitely needs to be more clarification or a more uniform ruling from SOs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macgulley Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 The other theory some of us have is that some elements within IDPA want to draw a more distinct line between IDPA and USPSA, where no one cares when, where or even if you reload. Thanks for the insight into the thinking of the rule makers. Personally, I don't think being different for the sake of being different is a good enough reason. I would love it if the various disciplines could come to an agreement on the basic range commands. It would make life easier on those who shoot IDPA and USPSA. I guess some are happy with the rift and wish to increase it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prk Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 I understand that IDPA was created as a shooting sport based on self defense scenario's - trying to get away from that other sport viewed by many as " running with a race gun " - I get they consulted the the Navy Seal's for updated strategies -- but I'm pretty sure the Navy Seal's load more than 10 rounds in their mags and carry more than 2 mags - I'm pretty sure they are not arguing the PIVOT point when they are clearing a room. IDPA has gotten so caught up with all these rules , that a lot of shooters are almost done with it. I get there needs to be rules but it looks like this one sucks - for the shooters and the SO's who have to look out for it. Does this come to mind for anybody else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apetrulis01 Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 The new rules stopped me from shooting the Citrus Challenge in Central Florida this weekend. Until there is a clarification on this rule I have stopped shooting IDPA....which leaves more time for 3 gun.....haha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryO Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 I doubt that I'll renew mine this next June. I hate the subjectivity of calls and this puts it over the top for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillR1 Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 The NM state match a couple days ago used the basketball rule. It worked quite well. . I was also at the NM match. For most people, the standing reload was really a non-issue once it was explained to everyone. Like Steve said, the basketball pivot illustration worked well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apetrulis01 Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 I doubt that I'll renew mine this next June. I hate the subjectivity of calls and this puts it over the top for me. I feel your pain on that. Although I like how the United States Carbine association, and USPSA for that matter, handle shooting around walls. If they don't want you standing in the open they put a fault line down, thus there is no subjectivity to the call, you either stepped over the line or not, IDPA should go to this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueorb Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 (edited) Truly, one of the most ill conceived rules ever. The reload was one of the few freedoms that were allowed in IDPA. Now they have taken that away. IDPA is now a mindless game of "follow the leader". Everyone is told how/when/where for every aspect of a stage. Like cows to a slaughter house. Didn't renew my membership this year. Don't see that happening anytime in the near future either. Edited October 30, 2013 by blueorb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fireman489 Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 I doubt that I'll renew mine this next June. I hate the subjectivity of calls and this puts it over the top for me. I feel your pain on that. Although I like how the United States Carbine association, and USPSA for that matter, handle shooting around walls. If they don't want you standing in the open they put a fault line down, thus there is no subjectivity to the call, you either stepped over the line or not, IDPA should go to this. idpa SHOULD go to it... but theyre too busy trying NOT to be like USPSA that they are missing the boat... I sent them an email that I was NOT renewing my license period.... unless they started to actually listen to their customers.... I suspect if enough of us that hate this rule.... made things real clear to them they would have to reconsider it.... overall idpa is subjective to penalize anyone they like .... why not take that element out & let the guys who actually practice be rewarded ? I understand not everyone is gonna wanna move & shoot or move & reload.... but if one has that skill why not use it ??? Whats next ? No going prone, cause a few people cant do it ??? C'mon idpa..... I hope someone up there is reading this ! Ohhh & yes Adam.... more time for 3gun ...& USPSA...... yep.... I said it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillR1 Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 (edited) Yep, if you don't like games with rules, it's best to move on from IDPA. Then you too can do stuff like this... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jo441dQzh6w No offense to Ben intended at all...very creative. Edited October 30, 2013 by BillR1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fireman489 Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 Yep, if you don't like games with rules, it's best to move on from IDPA. Then you too can do stuff like this... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jo441dQzh6w No offense to Ben intended at all...very creative. Its not that anyone is against a game w rules ... all games have em USPSA included .... its games w rules that are subjective from one so to another , with so much grey area that it cant possibly be done fairly..... Certain people get a PE while others get a pass..... what kind of "rule" is that ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillR1 Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 Yep, if you don't like games with rules, it's best to move on from IDPA. Then you too can do stuff like this... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jo441dQzh6w No offense to Ben intended at all...very creative. Its not that anyone is against a game w rules ... all games have em USPSA included .... its games w rules that are subjective from one so to another , with so much grey area that it cant possibly be done fairly..... Certain people get a PE while others get a pass..... what kind of "rule" is that ?? I've only shot one sanctioned match with the new rules, and I didn't see any "grey areas" or subjectivity at all. The MD clearly explained before the match how this rule was going to be enforced, and all of the SOs did exactly that. Nothing grey there...everyone knew what to expect and no one was surprised when the "finger" happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirveyr Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 (edited) I've only shot one sanctioned match with the new rules, and I didn't see any "grey areas" or subjectivity at all. The MD clearly explained before the match how this rule was going to be enforced, and all of the SOs did exactly that. Nothing grey there...everyone knew what to expect and no one was surprised when the "finger" happened. How about the MD use the actual rule, you know, the way that it is written? The MD should never need to explain how "he" is going to enforce a certain rule. If we still have subjective enforcement of something as simple as moving and reloading, the tigers have failed. Edited October 30, 2013 by sirveyr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillR1 Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 (edited) I've only shot one sanctioned match with the new rules, and I didn't see any "grey areas" or subjectivity at all. The MD clearly explained before the match how this rule was going to be enforced, and all of the SOs did exactly that. Nothing grey there...everyone knew what to expect and no one was surprised when the "finger" happened.How about the MD use the actual rule, you know, the way that it is written? The MD should never need to explain how "he" is going to enforce a certain rule.If we still have subjective enforcement of something as simple as moving and reloading, the tigers have failed. Great idea, and that's exactly what happened. Some people were unsure about it, and he explained clearly what the rule said and how it would be enforced....nothing subjective there. Again, it's a non-issue for the vast majority of shooters. Edited October 30, 2013 by BillR1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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