Model19

Yet another example of why I let my membership expire even though I renewed my SO cert for the new rulebook. If the rules don't matter then you don't need people like me. Heck, why even bother to make the top guys use cover garments. They're gonna win, so just let them shoot as a parade/demo in their sponsored team shirts and give them the trophies that we all know they'll get anyways. Basic principles of the game and integrity be damned. Or look at it like this...if they're that good, and we all know they are, they don't need to wear rule skirting gear to kick our butts. So why do they?

Under Principles: 1.3.1.1 Concealment 8.8.1, 8.9.2 Then there's this: 1.3.3.4. IDPA rules will be equally enforced for all classifications of IDPA members. Or not.

It is worded poorly when one looks at it in respect to the case in question here. I'll add this as well, you are not called to the line to load. You are called to the line because you are "up" and will be the next shooter to run the COF. The SO or scorer may have called you up, so you go to the stage starting point, but you have not been given the command to load. As a former SO for a half dozen years (being transparent here) I can think of dozens of times the the next shooter is being or has been called up and I was asked a question by the scorer that needed an answer or I needed a second to make sure everybody was safely behind the firing line after taping, thus my attention was not fully on the shooter or his gun. That's why you do not load until the SO commands you to. The SO will start issung commands once he is certain everything is safe, his attention is on you, and we are ready to proceed. Until that point you must remain unloaded and holstered. It used to be everybody understood that. I guess not. Was the shooter in question here a newb or experienced?

1.2.7. Firearms may only be loaded, and subsequently unloaded, under the direction of the Safety Officer (SO).

Too bad this happened after people got fed up and left, myself included. But best wishes for those who stuck it out. Enjoy the game.

You spun your holster to your weak side. Gamer!

The rules are nice and simple but a bit sparse in comparison to many other multi-gun games. Quick question that comes to mind, since it sounds like there will be stages that have the shooters with holstered hot pistols firing the rifle first in many stages. What is the thinking on body positions that might end up with the pistol muzzle pointing back at the SO and or crowd? Roll over prone, etc through low ports, for example. Just trying to get my head around the possibilities from a safety aspect.

Exactly Scott. Much more of a mental challenge. And when you see somebody shoot a stage like that and you already had your turn you think "Oh crap, why didn't I think of that!"

Good thing I was a Fencer back in High School. The lunge might come in handy again.

Fast guys are fast no matter what you make them do. Somebody who has perfected his reload while hauling ass has eliminated a time element. Simple math really. .7sec reload + 3 second sprint vs 3 second sprint while doing the reload at the same time.

So there we go again with SO's having a lot of leeway. I'm an SO, so don't get me wrong, I like having better defined rules, but I also am not such a fan of more strictly defined procedures for shooters to follow in a stage. We're not yet at the point of the CoF drawing have X's to reprsent the only place you can stand and shoot and dotted lines showing the path you MUST take as you navigate the course, but we inch closer. I believe in not crowding cover. My defined points of cover will allow enough radius to do so. Then it is up to me as the course designer to make sure you cannot use that leeway for an unforseen advantage.

I'll have to check the rules for a specific cover position being specified. If that's true and the shooter cannot use his discretion in where he stands in relationship to the cover as long as he is not exposed to any threats...that's lame. Sounds like shooting boxes.....

Wait wait, let's game this out. No rule says you have to be X distance from cover, does it? And there are some benefits to spacing yourself futher rather than closer to your cover as you engage targets. So in this case he backed away from the cover, call it a wall corner for example. Say you back off 8 feet from the wall, you slice the pie correctly, engaging all targets as they become visible and you neutralize them. As long as you have not exposed yourself to any other targets anywhere, what rules have you broken? You may end up 8' out and away from the end of the wall depending on where the targets are. Picture a bicycle wheel. The end of the wall is the axle, and the farther you go along out a spoke towards the rim the more you will move as you rotate around the axle. More linear distance but the number of degrees remain the same. This may take some rules studying and pondering. It may be a legit idea not disallowed in the rules. In a strictly gamer sense anyways.

Such poor tactics! And so clever !!

I think the scorer is going to have to watch the feet. I'll be busy watching the gun.

Specific? \ Oops. That's what I get for reading the early draft version of the new rules before my first cup of coffee was gone. My bad. No twist or jumping jacks allowed.

I don't think moving a foot is a PE. The rules are not that specific. You cannot move towards the next shooting position, but this is not now a game of "freeze tag" where you can only move your arms to perform the reload and all other body parts must remain frozen in position. As long as you do not high tail it to the next position (as we did in the past when behind cover) you can do the twist, jumping jacks, or deep knee bends while you reload (as long as you do it safely) as far as I care when I'm the SO as long as you stay where you were when you started the reload or ran dry.

FTDR !!!! Jeez, don't ask that on a forum. And pretty much like the other guys said, if you take satisfaction from that, well....

So you're saying that because my first two rounds after a reload went click instead of bang I can dump the remaining four on the ground, reload and carry on? Seems to contradict your logic of leaving that one single round behind as the OP did. The other four rounds might have worked if I pulled the trigger again and would in that case be called "live". This whole debate is full of, I hate to use the term, range lawyer stuff. Takes the fun right out of it. I'll invoke the dreaded "spirit" clause, and ask would you truly waste time scramblng after that one ejected round you had because you brain-f#rted after a by the book reload, while more bad guys are threatening to zap you? I think not. At least not me anyways. Shoot whatever ammo I have left, throw the gun at them if I run out of ammo before they're neutralized, and then run like hell to safety. I know, fun is not the name of the game all the time. I apologize in advance for trying to enjoy the game. Lord knows becoming an SO really increases that aspect of the sport. .... Not. And I'll add a big thanks to the folks that give me a "thanks for a great match" after we're all done tearing down. It's the only compensation we get and I truly appreciate it each time I hear it. Lightweight rant over. Sorry.

I'd venture a guess that the "live ammunition left on the ground" was written with revo shooters specifically in mind back in the day. A revo version of leaving a loaded mag behind most likely. Perhaps the powers that be felt that leaving a single racked out live round behind in a case like we have been discussing (quite politey I must add, thanks for that) merited a PE, but I doubt it. I'd bet they intended to penalize dropped partial mags and guys dumping 3 or 4 good rounds from a revo when one or two went "click" and they just dumped the cylinder on the ground and reloaded. But that's just my take on the issue looking back from a historian's standpoint so to speak. I too think that what happened here was penalty enough in time wasted all by itself, and I do not remember being taught in the SO class that it was a penalty nor can I find it specificaly mentioned in the rulebook or the addendum. The reload was completed correctly by any interpretation of the rules before the round was ejected. The judgement does go to the shooter. I may be all wet, but I got broad shoulders and a towel.

I agree wholeheartedly on the major issue of vague rules leading to differing interpretations. We can only hope.

I agree. This was a mental malfunction, not ignoring a RWR or Tacload. Reload was completed in the manner specified in the CoF. No where in the book does it say you have to scramble around after a single dropped live round in a case like this before you move on to complete the stage. From an SO standpoint, being the guy standing right behind the shooter, I would not even want them to do so given the potential for muzzle violations.

Bingo! i was just waiting for somebody else to say it. That's no PE. You dinged yourself in time with the wasted action, but you did not commit a procedural error.

Why a PE for racking the slide? If that's in the rule book or the SO training, somebody please point out where to find it. I've never dinged anybody for that one before. Geoff

Clutch said it well. We have BUG, which gets fairly close to what many really carry. But as long as pocket carry is against the rules, many of us will never be able to game the way we roll. But again, I defer to Clutch's assesment, it is accurate.