New rule 3.3.1 for 2014 rulebook.

[sperman]

From the 10/08/2013 BOD meeting minutes:

Motion: To re-word 3.3.1 to read:

In jurisdictions where competitors are restricted by law to maximum magazine capacity, the maximum capacity allowed in the contest, per division, will be the lesser of said law limitations or division limitations. Individuals exempt from the law restrictions must still comply with this section. Any such limitations must be made known to all competitors by the Match Director/Range Master before the start of the match.

Moved: A7

Seconded: A2

Passed

[Vlad]

That seems very harsh and odd. The 175mm mag is something they brought to the range, they could have measured at home, used a gage, whatever. That 16th rd is a brain fart, a worn spring, etc. I'm not seeing how the two are the same. What other match day shooter screw up do we penalize with no-score? It isn't as the magazine didn't fit the division requirements to start with, just like a 15rd mag in production is just fine.

Edited October 10, 2013 by Vlad

[bikerburgess]

I don't know about it being harsh, a 175 mag is only breaking a USPSA rule the overloaded magazine is both breaking a USPSA rule and committing a crime. like you said with measuring the mag at home, if I was going where I could break the law by overloading a mag I would make sure it was blocked in a way that I could not do that (glad I live where I don't have to worry about that) we also have several equipment rules that are the same for all divisions so you cant get bumped to open for violating them either.

Mike

[Vlad]

Forget the crime, USPSA is not in the business and it may not be a crime at all if the magazine is legally owned by an LEO.

Let me explain it better with two scenarios:

1) Shooter A registers in production. He has 15rd magazines. The magazines meet the division requirements, as long as he only loads 10rd. At one stage he loads 11 in a mag for whatever reason. His penalty is "Welcome to open"

2) Shooter B registers in limited or open. He has 16 rd magazines. The magazines meet the division requirements, as long as he only loads 15. At one stage he loads 16 in a mag for whatever reason. His penalty is shoot for no score.

The scenarios as in every way identical except for the final result. This is inconsistent rule making.

Under the old rule book the shooter shot for no score when his equipment physically did not meet the requirements, under the new rules he shoots for no score in some divisions but not others, even when the equipment physically meets the requirements.

This doesn't compute.

Edited October 10, 2013 by Vlad

[outerlimits]

First there was L-10, now this. Geez.

[frag316]

The rule was to prevent LEOs or Military from going to, say New York and smoking everyone with big sticks in Open because everyone else is limited to 10.

Was this a problem? Also I fear the board may be out of touch with the reality on the ground.

While I can't speak to New York's law specifically, but most instances of these restrictions don't allow military guys to use magazines larger than the limit for civilians unless they're conducting actual military operations (e.g., qualification range, familiarization firing, training, convoy operations, etc.). If you have military guys doing this with their competition gear, they're probably breaking the law and are liable to be arrested.

I recall hearing that a Fort Drum Soldier was arrested for having a couple of 30-round AR mags (guys wind up with these in their gear all the time) in his car while he was traveling for stuff not strictly associated with his duties (he was on leave or pass or off on a weekend).

[Vlad]

So when did USPSA get into the state law enforcement business? Each state is different, and as far as I know in mine there is no law prohibiting law enforcement from using their issue gear for matches.

[Flexmoney]

That seems very harsh and odd. The 175mm mag is something they brought to the range, they could have measured at home, used a gage, whatever. That 16th rd is a brain fart, a worn spring, etc. I'm not seeing how the two are the same. What other match day shooter screw up do we penalize with no-score? It isn't as the magazine didn't fit the division requirements to start with, just like a 15rd mag in production is just fine.

This rule allow the Match Director, only where restricted by law, to alter the division capacity. As with other things, if you don't meet a divisions requirements...you get bumped to Open. if you don't meet Open division requirements, you get no score. Same as always. Sound right?

[Flexmoney]

Each state is different, and as far as I know in mine there is no law prohibiting law enforcement from using their issue gear for matches.

Right. But, there is now a rule that won't allow LEO/MIL to load up mags that have a greater capacity than Joe Citizen is allowed to use.

In other words, if you and I are restricted to 7 round mags, and Larry Lawman can shoot with his 20 round (approved for duty) mags...then we, effective, have a buggered equipment division.

This rule addresses that.

If it doesn't apply to your local laws...rock out with your mags out.

[Vlad]

This rule does not allow the match director, it requires the match director to etc etc. At least that is how I read the rule.

Secondly, the requirements have been about the equipment, not the use thereof. Are you saying that a magazine that matches the division rules, does not get physically changed during the match, suddenly does not match the division requirements when used improperly?

To my mind, this is the first time where we've done this, the use of the unaltered equipment that was legal one minute makes it illegal in any division the next. Open used to be the ultimate catchall as the penalty for messing up the use in a lower division. If you showed up with 175mm you were broken from the start, not half way through.

[Vlad]

Each state is different, and as far as I know in mine there is no law prohibiting law enforcement from using their issue gear for matches.

Right. But, there is now a rule that won't allow LEO/MIL to load up mags that have a greater capacity than Joe Citizen is allowed to use.

In other words, if you and I are restricted to 7 round mags, and Larry Lawman can shoot with his 20 round (approved for duty) mags...then we, effective, have a buggered equipment division.

Thats fine, I'm ok with the spirit of the rule, I have issues with its implementation. Note the rule still doesn't ban Lawman from using the mag, just how many he shoves into it.

[UFO]

My thought is, this is the USPSA covering their **S's. In the lawyer happy world we live in, this rule can help them not be liable if something bad goes down.......

[ChuckS]

My thought is, this is the USPSA covering their **S's. In the lawyer happy world we live in, this rule can help them not be liable if something bad goes down.......

No. All this is doing is making sure that an individual who is not under a magazine capacity restriction does not have an unfair advantage at a USPSA match.

[Supermoto]

If I have a LTC-B in mass and can not own hicap mags of any date. If I want to shoot open or limited, will the LTC-A shooters have to download their prebans to 10 so that they don't have an unfair advantage

[Chills1994]

I think Hawaii is also an Open-10 state as well. Don't know if they even allow pre-ban mags???

[HI5-O]

My thought is, this is the USPSA covering their **S's. In the lawyer happy world we live in, this rule can help them not be liable if something bad goes down.......

No. All this is doing is making sure that an individual who is not under a magazine capacity restriction does not have an unfair advantage at a USPSA match.

That is how I take the new rule as both Chuck's (S and Anderson) explains the reason for this rule.

At home, I am exempted from the 10 rd law but only load 10 in local matches to be fair. We have been dealing with this for years and it sucks (the 10 rd law).

[Vlad]

Again, I don't have a problem with the intent of the rule, I have a problem with its wording, lack of specificity when it comes to grandfather states and to the penalties associated with this rule. We shouldn't have to guess or wait on NROI, if you are going to make a new rule, no matter how well intentioned, write it in a way that doesn't require immediate NROI help.

[Chills1994]

Did we really need a rule for this?

No pun intended, but were other LEO's unable to police themselves like HI5-0 above?

Or would the razzing and verbal harassment by the Limited-7 shooters not be enough to shame cops from loading their STI gamer guns full of 20 rounds of .40S&W?

[Graham Smith]

This may have already been covered by something someone said, but I want to make sure I understand. A match is held in a state that has a 10 round mag limit but permits pre-ban ownership. So some residents may legally have a 20 round mag and others may not. The state also allows people from out of state to bring high cap mags.

At a match, 10 people show up to shoot limited:

1. The MD must set the capacity limit at 10, regardless.

2. The MD must set the capacity limit at 10, but only if there is at least one person who cannot legally own a larger mag.

3. The MD can leave the the limit alone and tell anyone with restricted mags to shoot L10

At the same match, 10 people show up to shoot open:

1. The MD must set the capacity limit at 10, regardless.

2. The MD must set the capacity limit at 10, but only if there is at least one person who cannot legally own a larger mag.

Edited October 10, 2013 by Graham Smith

[Flexmoney]

Also I fear the board may be out of touch with the reality on the ground.

Again, I don't have a problem with the intent of the rule, I have a problem with its wording, lack of specificity...

Yeah...there should have been a long drawn out process and a 3 month comment period or something.

You might be right (if so, write up your wording), but I got to ask...where have you been?

[Vlad]

Honestly, busy. I actually wish someone told me there were rules on the table ( *cough*WTH Nik/Harry*cough*) because I would have yelled bloody murder about this earlier.

I've been completely unplugged from the USPSA and Benosverse worlds, outside running my little match and pointing people to come here for help.

Actually, I did browse FrontSight, but I don't recall seeing any notice about this, but I could have totally missed it. Was there one?

Edited to add: Flex .... you are now at 37,536 posts which .. dude .. I don't think I've done anything that many times, possibly walking/breathing aside. I don't think I've peed that many times in 39 years.

Edited October 10, 2013 by Vlad

[Flexmoney]

Yeah, I think we were originally going to call this the 2013 rule book (now it's the 2014). This stuff has been floating around a while.

[sperman]

Flex,

Did you read this thread on the USPSA forums? There were a lot of people questioning 3.3.1 over the last 90 days.

[MarkCO]

Just for the record, I saw the rule, was concerned and so I asked Amidon. His response is below:

2) Unlike NY where the big tubes are no longer grandfathered, ours is a 10 round limit, so big sticks no longer exist, I would check with authorities in your area for your answer, if your limit is 15, but your big sticks are grandfathered, can you load more than 15, I cannot answer that for you, it is up to law enforcement or legislation in CO.

[Mark R]

This may have already been covered by something someone said, but I want to make sure I understand. A match is held in a state that has a 10 round mag limit but permits pre-ban ownership. So some residents may legally have a 20 round mag and others may not. The state also allows people from out of state to bring high cap mags.

At a match, 10 people show up to shoot limited:

1. The MD must set the capacity limit at 10, regardless.

2. The MD must set the capacity limit at 10, but only if there is at least one person who cannot legally own a larger mag.

3. The MD can leave the the limit alone and tell anyone with restricted mags to shoot L10

At the same match, 10 people show up to shoot open:

1. The MD must set the capacity limit at 10, regardless.

2. The MD must set the capacity limit at 10, but only if there is at least one person who cannot legally own a larger mag.

Graham...as I see it, since the law says the capacity limit is 10, then the MD should set the capacity to Limited and Open to 10 rounds max in gun even though pre-ban mags exist. Either the law or rule, whichever is lowest.

Edited to add: It sets up an even playing field for all.

Edited October 10, 2013 by Mark R