Stoppage due to broken part - reshoot?

[blueorb]

Shot the NC Section today. Had a shooter in our squad who appeared to have a jam/malfunction. Attempted to clear the issue. While trying to clear the issue the slide stop fell off of the gun and on the ground (it obviously broke). He shoots a CZ and this is, apparently, common with this CZs. The RO calls a stoppage (note....the shooter did not stop himself, the RO called a stoppage). The shooter asked for a reshoot. The MD was called but a reshoot was not given to the shooter. I did not hear the conversation but I could see that they had the rule book out and were using it to make a decision.

What is the correct call on this situation? I was under the impression that if the RO calls the stoppage, and the shooter has a broken part, a reshoot is granted. Isn't that what happened to Nils at the Limited Nationals?

I am genuinely curious. I am not an RO and have no clue what rule was used to support the call.

[juan]

you have 2 min to fix it. all on the clock

[ChuckS]

This is the rule on malfunctions:

5.7.4 In the event that a handgun malfunction cannot be corrected by the
competitor within 2 minutes, he must point the handgun safely downrange
and advise the Range Officer, who will terminate the course of
fire (excluding any unattempted component strings in a Standard
Exercise) in the normal manner. The course of fire (excluding any unattempted
component strings in a Standard Exercise) will be scored as
shot including all applicable misses and penalties.

By rule, the RO should of just watched the show until the shooter stopped himself or the 2 minutes expired. In this case, the gun clearly broke and that was the cause for the end of the stage effort but there is no rule that supports the RO calling the "stoppage" that I am aware of. Technically, the shooter probably should of had a re-shoot.

[gng4life]

Right, they have 2 mins to clear a malfunction and get going but if the RO yells stop and it's not due to a safely violation, then a reshoot should have been allowed.

Just a guess here, did a minute or two pass before the RO called stop? Many ROs don't know what to call at the 2 minute mark or what to say, he may have thought it was 2 minutes and called stop to indicate the shooter's 2 minutes was up. It's tough when you don't have all the facts or not being there to see it but this is the best I could guess.

[Cy Soto]

you have 2 min to fix it. all on the clock

Unless the shooter is carrying a spare on his person, he won't be able to fix a broken slide stop "on the clock." Doing so would require for him to be allowed to leave the shooting area or have another person bring him the part (interference?)

Rule 5.7.7 states that the RO may terminate the COF (give the Stop command) if he suspects that the gun is unsafe. It sounds to me that this is what he did.

Edited October 6, 2013 by Cy Soto

[xdnok]

As a follow up question, what do you do with the broken gun? Put the lower (frame) back in the holster and carry off the slide and barrel? I have never had a gun in more than 1 piece as an RO before.

[BritinUSA]

I was under the impression that if the RO calls the stoppage, and the shooter has a broken part, a reshoot is granted. Isn't that what happened to Nils at the Limited Nationals?

Nils gun did not break during his run. The RO gave the command to make ready, the start was unloaded gun in the table. When Nils put his gun on the table the safety fell off. After getting permission from the RO he went to the safe area to fix his gun.

[Nik Habicht]

You've really got to read all of Section 5.7 -- but I can envision some scenarios where the two minute rule would not apply......

5.7.6 Where the handgun has failed after the Start signal, the competitor must not be permitted to reshoot the course of fire or string. This includes the instance where a handgun is declared unserviceable or unsafe during a course of fire or string. However, any unattempted component strings in a Standard Exercise may still be attempted by the affected competitor after the handgun has been repaired, and prior to when match results are declared final by the Match Director.

Typically the shooter is given their two minutes to fix the gun. However, if the RO determines that the gun is not safe to shoot, then he may terminate the course of fire at that point, and declare the gun to be unsafe, in which case no reshoot would be permitted.

[sperman]

The MD was called but a reshoot was not given to the shooter.

Hopefully it was the Range Master and not the Match Director.

[whitedog]

No alibi basically. To the letter of the rule, with not being there, the RO waits 2 min and scores as shot. If the gun is obviously FUBAR, RO declares unsafe gun. And again scored as shot.

[GuildSF4]

I was under the impression that if the RO calls the stoppage, and the shooter has a broken part, a reshoot is granted. Isn't that what happened to Nils at the Limited Nationals?

Nils gun did not break during his run. The RO gave the command to make ready, the start was unloaded gun in the table. When Nils put his gun on the table the safety fell off. After getting permission from the RO he went to the safe area to fix his gun.

This is the rule that would apply in Nils case, so he would be re-started after the gun was repaired.

5.7.1 A competitor who experiences a handgun malfunction while responding to the “Make Ready” command, but prior to issuance of the “Start

Signal”, is entitled to retire to repair his handgun without penalty, under the authority and supervision of the officiating Range Officer and subject

to the provisions of Rule 5.7.5, Rule 8.3.1.1, and all other safety rules. Once the repairs have been completed (and the provisions of

Rule 5.1.7 have been satisfied, if applicable), the competitor may return to attempt the course of fire, subject to scheduling as determined by the

officiating Range Officer or Range Master.

If the gun breaks after the start signal no re-shoot as was previously pointed out. ('Stop' is the correct call if the RO thought the gun was un-safe, if I see a part fall off a gun I would probably call 'Stop' also and then sort it out.)

[blueorb]

As a follow up question, what do you do with the broken gun? Put the lower (frame) back in the holster and carry off the slide and barrel? I have never had a gun in more than 1 piece as an RO before.

When the slide stop broke it actually broke in two pieces. There was enough left in the frame that the slide stayed on the frame. He unloaded/showed clear, holstered and then took his gun directly to the safety area to disassemble it.

I was under the impression that if the RO calls the stoppage, and the shooter has a broken part, a reshoot is granted. Isn't that what happened to Nils at the Limited Nationals?

Nils gun did not break during his run. The RO gave the command to make ready, the start was unloaded gun in the table. When Nils put his gun on the table the safety fell off. After getting permission from the RO he went to the safe area to fix his gun.

Thanks for that clarification. Makes more sense now.

The MD was called but a reshoot was not given to the shooter.

Hopefully it was the Range Master and not the Match Director.

yea, my fault. It was the RM and not the MD.

[blueorb]

You've really got to read all of Section 5.7 -- but I can envision some scenarios where the two minute rule would not apply......

5.7.6 Where the handgun has failed after the Start signal, the competitor must not be permitted to reshoot the course of fire or string. This includes the instance where a handgun is declared unserviceable or unsafe during a course of fire or string. However, any unattempted component strings in a Standard Exercise may still be attempted by the affected competitor after the handgun has been repaired, and prior to when match results are declared final by the Match Director.

Typically the shooter is given their two minutes to fix the gun. However, if the RO determines that the gun is not safe to shoot, then he may terminate the course of fire at that point, and declare the gun to be unsafe, in which case no reshoot would be permitted.

As a follow up....I do believe this is exactly what happened. When the broken piece of the slide stop fell out the RO called the stoppage and declared the gun unsafe. I assume the above rule is the one they were looking at in the rule book. The shooter had a back up gun but it was our last stage of the day so his stage was scored as shot.

Thanks all.

Edited October 7, 2013 by blueorb

[sperman]

As the RO you should KNOW the gun is broken before calling stop. If it turns out he's just fighting the mother of all death jams, you just gave the shooter a re-shoot. (I saw this happen at a state match earlier in the year.)

[gng4life]

This is one of my gripes with this. Just as Sperman said, you better be sure and not just be taking guesses if the gun is actually broken. I had a slide stop fall out one time but I was able to put it back in and keep going. After the match, I noticed that little tab on the inside that is pushed up by the mag to engage the slide was seared off enough to not hold it in very tight. So this is not unsafe and is serviceable (still shot a few hundred rounds with it like that) but it's not ideal. I would err on the safe side if it's a truly an unsafe pistol or equipment but make sure it is just that.

[frag316]

If I've beeped the shooter and I see a part fall off of his/her gun during the CoF, I'm going to stop them. If it turns out I did it in error, then they get the reshoot for RO interference. But the last thing I want to have happen while I'm the RO is for someone to shoot a CoF with a broken gun and then have a mishap of some sort that resulted from the gun being unbroken.

They're machines, and you can't always see what's wrong with them. But if pieces come off, then there's a problem that should probably be looked at closer and in more detail than a shooter is going to do on the clock.

[bthoefer]

If the R.O. stopped the shooter because he believed the gun was unsafe but a safety issue did not exist then the competitor is required to reshoot.

5.7.7.2

I asked when I took the RO class and was told that case head separation did not qualify as a safety issue, so it would be hard to argue that a broken slide stop is unsafe.

I shot the GA state match with someone who had this same thing happen, he removed the broken slide stop and finished the stage.

The shooter should have reshoot, unless he did something unsafe while dealing with the malfunction. If the RO stopped the shooter because his 2 min were up then no reshoot.

[macgulley]

I had the same thing happen with my CZ in the middle of a stage but didn't notice until I went to unload and show clear but if I'm SOing and see an integral part that holds the firearm together fall off I'm gonna stop the shooter and, as someone else said, sort it out later.

[ChuckS]

--- snip --- but if I'm SOing and see an integral part that holds the firearm together fall off I'm gonna stop the shooter and, as someone else said, sort it out later.

I am curious as to what rule you base this on?

Later,

Chuck

(A victim of 2 trigger return springs and one slide stop in one season...)

[frag316]

If the R.O. stopped the shooter because he believed the gun was unsafe but a safety issue did not exist then the competitor is required to reshoot.

5.7.7.2

I asked when I took the RO class and was told that case head separation did not qualify as a safety issue, so it would be hard to argue that a broken slide stop is unsafe.

I shot the GA state match with someone who had this same thing happen, he removed the broken slide stop and finished the stage.

The shooter should have reshoot, unless he did something unsafe while dealing with the malfunction. If the RO stopped the shooter because his 2 min were up then no reshoot.

Well, I suppose, technically, a case head separation would not be a safety issue--if the rest of the case did not come out, it's a malfunction, and it would be on the shooter to extract it with whatever he had available on his person on the stage. If he can't clear it in two minutes, then he's stopped and the stage is scored.

BUT, if I see a part fall off the gun--even if I can identify it--I'm going to stop the shooter. Let's say the guy is shooting a 19/2011 and the slide stop breaks, but enough of the pin is engaged to keep the top end on the gun. What guarantees do I have that the gun will continue to stay together? To be completely safe, I'm going to stop the guy. If he buys a reshoot because of it, I think I can explain to him that I'd rather have him expend 8-32 additional rounds of ammo than eat a slide.

Note that 5.7.7. doesn't say there HAS to be a safety issue, it says the RO has the SUSPICION there's a safety issue, and it's based on EITHER the gun itself OR the ammo. Your case head separation example may fall into that category.

[Flexmoney]

Be careful of the "I'm gonna" mindset. You might be determining an outcome before you have actual gathered the onsite evidence.

[macgulley]

--- snip --- but if I'm SOing and see an integral part that holds the firearm together fall off I'm gonna stop the shooter and, as someone else said, sort it out later.

I am curious as to what rule you base this on?

Later,

Chuck

(A victim of 2 trigger return springs and one slide stop in one season...)

Maybe 2.12.7."Stop - This command is given when something unsafe has happened or is about to happen during a stage, or when something in the stage is not correct."

When parts are falling off your gun I think it's reasonable to believe something unsafe has happened or is about to happen.

[outerlimits]

2 mins from the start of the run or from the point of the malf? One is easy to determine, the other not.

[ChuckS]

--- snip --- but if I'm SOing and see an integral part that holds the firearm together fall off I'm gonna stop the shooter and, as someone else said, sort it out later.

I am curious as to what rule you base this on?

Later,

Chuck

(A victim of 2 trigger return springs and one slide stop in one season...)

Maybe 2.12.7."Stop - This command is given when something unsafe has happened or is about to happen during a stage, or when something in the stage is not correct."

When parts are falling off your gun I think it's reasonable to believe something unsafe has happened or is about to happen.

oops, never mind. SInce this is the USPSA/IPSC rules forum, I was expecting something else...

Edited October 8, 2013 by ChuckS

[ChuckS]

2 mins from the start of the run or from the point of the malf? One is easy to determine, the other not.

"5.7.4 In the event that a handgun malfunction cannot be corrected by the

competitor within 2 minutes,"

It looks like after the malf. I guess a real gamer could arb on not being given the whole two minutes but I guess one could request proof from the shooter that the time period was less than 2 minutes.