Stoppage due to broken part - reshoot?

[gng4life]

When parts are falling off your gun I think it's reasonable to believe something unsafe has happened or is about to happen.

Really? Several shooters have completed a CoF with sights that fell off, is that really unsafe? There was a guy years ago that completed the Nationals with no rear sight, did anyone stop him? It's not really fair to the shooter to stop them for something you might think is unsafe, I would let them determine that unless I feel really confident it's unsafe (such as a squip).

[sperman]

--- snip --- but if I'm SOing and see an integral part that holds the firearm together fall off I'm gonna stop the shooter and, as someone else said, sort it out later.

I am curious as to what rule you base this on?

Later,

Chuck

(A victim of 2 trigger return springs and one slide stop in one season...)

Maybe 2.12.7."Stop - This command is given when something unsafe has happened or is about to happen during a stage, or when something in the stage is not correct."

When parts are falling off your gun I think it's reasonable to believe something unsafe has happened or is about to happen.

Is that an IPSC rule? It's not in the USPSA handgun rulebook.

[sperman]

When parts are falling off your gun I think it's reasonable to believe something unsafe has happened or is about to happen.

Really? Several shooters have completed a CoF with sights that fell off, is that really unsafe? There was a guy years ago that completed the Nationals with no rear sight, did anyone stop him? It's not really fair to the shooter to stop them for something you might think is unsafe, I would let them determine that unless I feel really confident it's unsafe (such as a squip).

It is also not fair to his competitors. If he was going to zero the stage, but instead gets a reshoot with a fully functioning gun, you have done a disservice to everyone he is competing against.

[sperman]

--- snip --- but if I'm SOing and see an integral part that holds the firearm together fall off I'm gonna stop the shooter and, as someone else said, sort it out later.

I am curious as to what rule you base this on?

Later,

Chuck

(A victim of 2 trigger return springs and one slide stop in one season...)

Maybe 2.12.7."Stop - This command is given when something unsafe has happened or is about to happen during a stage, or when something in the stage is not correct."

When parts are falling off your gun I think it's reasonable to believe something unsafe has happened or is about to happen.

Is that an IPSC rule? It's not in the USPSA handgun rulebook.

IDPA rules don't mean much at a USPSA match.

[ChuckS]

It is also not fair to his competitors. If he was going to zero the stage, but instead gets a reshoot with a fully functioning gun, you have done a disservice to everyone he is competing against.

In addition, as a competitor in the same match, I would expect the same opportunity for a reshoot if I have some sort of malfunction!

[frag316]

When parts are falling off your gun I think it's reasonable to believe something unsafe has happened or is about to happen.

Really? Several shooters have completed a CoF with sights that fell off, is that really unsafe? There was a guy years ago that completed the Nationals with no rear sight, did anyone stop him? It's not really fair to the shooter to stop them for something you might think is unsafe, I would let them determine that unless I feel really confident it's unsafe (such as a squip).

It is also not fair to his competitors. If he was going to zero the stage, but instead gets a reshoot with a fully functioning gun, you have done a disservice to everyone he is competing against.

Maybe so, but when I RO a guy, I'm watching his gun mostly. If I see the sight fall off, I won't stop him. But if I see another part fall off, I'll probably do it. It's better to be completely safe than fair, in my not-so-humble. I'd like everyone to go home with all of their body parts working like they did when they arrived.

[frag316]

It is also not fair to his competitors. If he was going to zero the stage, but instead gets a reshoot with a fully functioning gun, you have done a disservice to everyone he is competing against.

In addition, as a competitor in the same match, I would expect the same opportunity for a reshoot if I have some sort of malfunction!

Well, if your RO is worth a damn, he'll take that into consideration.

[GuildSF4]

I apologize that I was not clear on when I would stop someone for parts falling off of the gun. As the RO I have seen the rear sight come off, and the front sight come off (or loose the fiber), I have not stopped the shooter for these parts (or the guide rod). If I suspect a unsafe gun I will stop the shooter though.

5.7.7 In the event that a Range Officer terminates a course of fire due to a suspicion that a competitor has an unsafe handgun or unsafe ammunition

(e.g. a “squib” load), the Range Officer will take whatever steps he deems necessary to return both the competitor and the range to a safe

condition. The Range Officer will then inspect the handgun or ammunition and proceed as follows: ... (rules continue...)

Edited October 8, 2013 by GuildSF4

[macgulley]

Oops, wrong rule book. Sorry.

[JAFO]

I expect the shooter to be more familiar with his/her gun than I am. I've shot a few 1911's, and I shot a 2011 once. I am far from familiar with them. But if the slide catch lever breaks off on my gun (X5), it's not a safety issue at all. My slide won't lock back anymore, but that lever doesn't hold my gun together. I may not be familiar enough with someone else's hardware to know what parts are critical and what parts aren't. It should be up to the shooter to determine whether a part that broke is critical on their gun.

Having said that, if the shooter is brand new and seems unfamiliar with his/her gun, I would have to take into consideration that they may know less about their gun as I do. In that case, I may stop them.

[frag316]

Again, the rulebook says "suspicion," not "sure of." If I don't shoot the same gun as you do and I see a part fly or fall off of your gun that I can't identify, I'm going to err on the side of safety and stop you.

[whitedog]

A part falls off of a device that is basically a controlled explosion container. And you don't think I'll stop you? I would rather err on the side of caution, then watch something I could have prevented happen.

As a side question, what if I see it and shooter does not? Do I guess what part matters on a firearm I'm not familiar with? And no, I don't mean sights or fibers...I mean an actual part that serves a purpose in the operation of the firearm.

[Nik Habicht]

--- snip --- but if I'm SOing and see an integral part that holds the firearm together fall off I'm gonna stop the shooter and, as someone else said, sort it out later.

I am curious as to what rule you base this on?

Later,

Chuck

(A victim of 2 trigger return springs and one slide stop in one season...)

Oh, I don't know Chuck? How about on good judgment that a safety concern might exist, and that it requires me to take action.....

After all, when we stop shooters for the sound of a squib, we don't know that a safety problem exists. We assume it does, because it's the prudent thing to do -- and we have rules in place to deal with the consequences, because we actually want the RO to react quickly and stop the shooter, to prevent an injury. If it turns out that your gun's ability to run safely isn't affected by the part that fell off, then you get to reshoot.....

Section 5.7 lays it out pretty well.....

Hate reshoots? Bring a gun and ammo that run -- or that at least retain their parts/don't have huge variations in noise.... :P

[Nik Habicht]

Be careful of the "I'm gonna" mindset. You might be determining an outcome before you have actual gathered the onsite evidence.

That one can go two ways......

Once upon a time, shortly after becoming an RO, I needed to stop a shooter. Since I hadn't prepped my mindset, I said all kinds of things for about three seconds, before remembering that the command is "Stop!"

[Nik Habicht]

2 mins from the start of the run or from the point of the malf? One is easy to determine, the other not.

From the point of the malf.....

[Nik Habicht]

2 mins from the start of the run or from the point of the malf? One is easy to determine, the other not.

"5.7.4 In the event that a handgun malfunction cannot be corrected by the

competitor within 2 minutes,"

It looks like after the malf. I guess a real gamer could arb on not being given the whole two minutes but I guess one could request proof from the shooter that the time period was less than 2 minutes.

You can't arb two minutes if the RO determines and an inspection confirms that the gun is unsafe. Translation -- the shooter doesn't have two minutes to pound out a squib, or to fix a doubling or tripling gun....

[Nik Habicht]

Again, the rulebook says "suspicion," not "sure of." If I don't shoot the same gun as you do and I see a part fly or fall off of your gun that I can't identify, I'm going to err on the side of safety and stop you.

Devil's Advocate Mode on:

Your slide stop falls off your gun. I stop you, have you unload and show clear. We inspect the gun, and confirm that the slide stop is no longer in place, but is in fact on the ground. One could argue no reshoot, since the suspected problem (part fell off the gun) has been confirmed......

5.7.7.1 If the Range Officer finds evidence that confirms the suspected problem, the competitor will not be entitled to a reshoot, but will be ordered to rectify the problem. On the competitor’s score sheet, the time will be recorded up to the last shot fired, and the course of fire will be scored “as shot”, including all applicable misses and penalties.

:ph34r:

/Devils Advocate Mode

[bthoefer]

To clarify, I think the RO should stop a shooter if they think there is a safety issue. That is why there must be a safety issue present upon inspection after the RO stopps the shooter. I don't think a broken slide stop should qualify as an unsafe condition, since I have seen shooters finish a stage after it broke. Since there was not an unsafe condition present, the shooter gets a reshoot.

Personally I think that what constitutes an unsafe condition better defined by the rule book.

[frag316]

Again, the rulebook says "suspicion," not "sure of." If I don't shoot the same gun as you do and I see a part fly or fall off of your gun that I can't identify, I'm going to err on the side of safety and stop you.

Devil's Advocate Mode on:

Your slide stop falls off your gun. I stop you, have you unload and show clear. We inspect the gun, and confirm that the slide stop is no longer in place, but is in fact on the ground. One could argue no reshoot, since the suspected problem (part fell off the gun) has been confirmed......

5.7.7.1 If the Range Officer finds evidence that confirms the suspected problem, the competitor will not be entitled to a reshoot, but will be ordered to rectify the problem. On the competitor’s score sheet, the time will be recorded up to the last shot fired, and the course of fire will be scored “as shot”, including all applicable misses and penalties.

:ph34r:

/Devils Advocate Mode

Uhh, no. The issue isn't whether the slide stop fell off or broke, it's whether the gun is safe to operate after that happens. If the gun operates safely, then the RO's suspicion is not confirmed, and the competitor must reshoot the CoF.

The reason I stop you if I see parts fly off of the gun that I can't identify is because I have a suspicion the gun may have just become unsafe, and I want to confirm or deny that suspicion.

[macgulley]

Authorization to stop the shooter: (from the correct rule book this time )

8.3.5 “Stop” – Any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue this com-

mand at any time during the course of fire. The competitor must imme-

diately cease firing, stop moving and wait for further instructions from

the Range Officer.

5.1.6 Handguns must be serviceable and safe. Range Officers may demand

examination of a competitor’s handgun or related equipment, at any time,

to check they are functioning safely. If any such item is declared unser-

viceable or unsafe by a Range Officer, it must be withdrawn from the

match until the item is repaired to the satisfaction of the Range Master.

If the Range Master inspects the firearm and is willing to allow the competitor to continue with it in that state I think he should get a reshoot.

If the Range Master requires it to be repaired before continuing it should be scored as shot.

[outerlimits]

We better keep grip safeties outta this...

[gng4life]

The point still remains that if the shooter can keep it running by leaving the parts behind (sights, thumb rest, slide racker, etc., etc.) or put the fallen parts back in (maybe it was assembled incorrectly at the safe area, loose but functional parts, etc.) then the shooter should get his two minutes...period. I think almost everyone hates reshoots and it's not a fair assessment to just hand them out like welfare checks. Also we should not hide behind a false shroud of "I'm doing this for safety" thinking and let's make good decisions - that's the main premise behind being an RO. I'm out...

[macgulley]

If it's obviously a non-essential part (sights, slide racker, etc.) or if the shooter stops shooting and picks up the part to make a repair I definitely think he should be allowed to repair if necessary and continue if it's safe.
A slide lock doesn't fail in a vacuum. It is subjected to severe stresses and it's designed to distribute those stresses to both sides of the frame. A broken slide lock may continue to function for a while but the stresses that broke it in two will now be concentrated on the remaining part and there's no way to know how long it can withstand that stress. I believe it's a safety issue.

[ChuckS]

We better keep grip safeties outta this...

Do they fall off a lot?

[frag316]

The point still remains that if the shooter can keep it running by leaving the parts behind (sights, thumb rest, slide racker, etc., etc.) or put the fallen parts back in (maybe it was assembled incorrectly at the safe area, loose but functional parts, etc.) then the shooter should get his two minutes...period. I think almost everyone hates reshoots and it's not a fair assessment to just hand them out like welfare checks. Also we should not hide behind a false shroud of "I'm doing this for safety" thinking and let's make good decisions - that's the main premise behind being an RO. I'm out...

Like I said before--if a part falls off that I can't identify, then I'll stop the shooter. If I can identify the part and I don't think it's a safety issue, I'll let it go on the clock.

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