Lead-Head Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Total time?....hmmm....well that sucks.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbmd Posted August 21, 2014 Author Share Posted August 21, 2014 And "factory only configurations" for all guns outside of Open division? Is that an elaborate joke? Who, other than team FNH, doesn't have some externally visible mod across rifle, shotgun, and pistol? Heck, I bet half of the rifles started as lowers. That just means the AMU can't show up with a new army space gun that shoots four bullets at a time and clean all out clocks. Your guns gotta bring something a factory built. Must maintain a factory configuration.....don't bolt on the kitchen sink and tell me it was a factory option. That dog won't hunt! I am realistic but don' t try to take advantage of the situation. And "factory only configurations" for all guns outside of Open division? Is that an elaborate joke? Who, other than team FNH, doesn't have some externally visible mod across rifle, shotgun, and pistol? Heck, I bet half of the rifles started as lowers. That just means the AMU can't show up with a new army space gun that shoots four belts at a time and clean all out clocks. Your guns gotta be something a factory built. 5.3 Tactical Scope division 5.3.1 Firearms must be of a factory configuration. Internal modifications are permitted providing they do not alter the external appearance of the firearm. Even replaced sights would qualify as an illegal mod and put you into open. Why would you write rules like this unless you really mean it? Seriously....changing the sights from post and notch to post and notch is not an external modification and does not change the external appearance. Based on the revised rules, it looks like it's total time scoring this year. No mention of stage points. Yuck. Shit I agree! Those stages are big/small/big/small. Better start practicing long range rifle. Crap! I hate total time matches. Now that everyone is switching to practiscore, why the push to simplify scoring? This was not done to simplfy scoring. We are trying something different to provide us with data to determine which is the best scoring either time plus or time plus factored to stage points. I am always looking to improve the match to provide the best for the participants sometimes I am successful and sometimes I am not. If we find time plus proves no better then we will go back to time plus factored. As for our rules....these were adapted with modifications from a well known 3 gun match that had been running years before ours....SMM3G. Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davehorn Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Total time?....hmmm....well that sucks.... Agreed! It always ends up placing too much value on certain stages (usually long range rifle) and devaluing others (everything else). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2alphas Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 This is and has been a great match. Larry and Crew plus Linda are among the absolute best in our sport. And, some of the wisest. However, with all due respect, most of us who have been in the game for a while detest time plus scoring of major matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Seriously....changing the sights from post and notch to post and notch is not an external modification and does not change the external appearance. Seriously... changing a handguard out on an AR15 is an extremely visible external modification that most of your competitors will likely have done so please don't demean and act like it is a stupid question. The rulebook is written is such a way that you could easily bump 90% of the Tac Ops shooters into Open division so forgive me for wanting to get clarification before showing up on match day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
238shooter Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 One bad stage and the game is over with total time scoring. IMO this is been tried, tested and not liked. I would like for someone to explain the pros to this type of scoring method as I am sure there has got to be a few reasons why this is good idea. If you want to see how this would work, keep the scoring as prior years and then PRIVATELY and not shared except for internal use only, see how the results compare. I think this will make the shooters more at ease to know the scoring will be the same for past matches which has always drawn a large crowd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 One bad stage and the game is over with total time scoring. IMO this is been tried, tested and not liked. I would like for someone to explain the pros to this type of scoring method as I am sure there has got to be a few reasons why this is good idea. If you want to see how this would work, keep the scoring as prior years and then PRIVATELY and not shared except for internal use only, see how the results compare. I think this will make the shooters more at ease to know the scoring will be the same for past matches which has always drawn a large crowd. Pros: it's a great way for long range rifle shooters to make up distance on everyone else Cons: it's a great way for long range rifle shooters to make up distance on everyone else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moltke Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Time plus Miss a target and it hurts because of the time penalty Have a gun jam and it hurts because of the time added Mistakes are not forgiving because they directly affect the overall game Stage points A missed target won't hurt as much overall A jam won't hurt as much overall A penalty on a small stage is weighted down from what that same penalty would be on a larger course of fire The problem is stage points is a passive benefit to the people who have problems where time plus is more fair. Now you make a mistake, miss a target, or receive a penalty... you own it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjk2011 Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 (edited) Edited August 21, 2014 by cjk2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark97se Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Time plus Miss a target and it hurts because of the time penalty Have a gun jam and it hurts because of the time added Mistakes are not forgiving because they directly affect the overall game Stage points A missed target won't hurt as much overall A jam won't hurt as much overall A penalty on a small stage is weighted down from what that same penalty would be on a larger course of fire The problem is stage points is a passive benefit to the people who have problems where time plus is more fair. Now you make a mistake, miss a target, or receive a penalty... you own it. Not sure how lower times are factored out with stage points...someone will have to show me the equation for that. Simply put, time plus makes the shorter stages almost worthless. The only way for a total time match to be close to "fair"(equal value) is for all the stages to have the same average time. If you don't want stages to have equal value, then that is a different story (like assigning different amounts of points based on the number of weapons used, etc). If someone wins a 10 second stage by 10% with total time, he is 1 sec above the next guy(instead of 10 stage points). The next guy wins a 100 second stage by 10% with total time, he is now 10 sec above the next guy(instead of 10 stage points). Now the short stage guy only has to win 10 more short stages to equal the 1 stage win by the other guy. Does that sound fair? I guess it just depends on whether you think that stages should all be worth the same or not... It is Larry's match, so he is free to run it however he chooses...I just hope that this is a short-lived excursion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbmd Posted August 21, 2014 Author Share Posted August 21, 2014 This was brought to me by a national champion and I listened to their reason. Simply put time plus equalizes any penalties across each stage. An example a 10 second miss on a 30 second stage is worth 33 points in a factored stage. While that same miss on a 60 second stage is worth 16.5 points on factored. Time plus regardless of the stage carries the same value. If anyone thinks changing a handguard out on a rifle will move you to open evidently doesn't know me very well and the extent I go to ensuring fairness to the competitor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan 45 Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 (edited) I do like the increased penalties for long range FTN. A competitor should never come out ahead by intentionally taking a miss. 20 seconds for a FTN over 125 yards or 30 seconds for a FTE over 125 yards. Of course, with weighted penalties on the LR targets, and smaller penalties on the short stages, it makes the LR stages that much more important in the overall time. Larry- I have DoubleStar and Samson rail covers on my handguard that I installed, not from the factory. Is this going to bump me to open? Edited August 21, 2014 by Bryan 45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Larry- I have DoubleStar and Samson rail covers on my handguard that I installed, not from the factory. Is this going to bump me to open? Only according to the rulebook which was put together just for this match. I wonder if there are any other rules in there that we shouldn't worry about... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
springy Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 I know everyone can come up with a "what if", however, what about the shotgun with a huge chunk ground out of the side of the receiver to facilitate loading? Pretty sure that is an external modification to gain an advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob01 Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 I don't care if I end up shooting open or TO, which i did last year and will this year, as I am not going to win either LOL. Still going to show up and have fun at a fun match set up at a great range area for it and having a huge prize table. Going to use the same gear as I did last year without problem and I don't think anyone who has shot there before, or any major match, should worry either. Larry is a pretty fair guy and knows the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Sierpina Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 I'd be more concerned about bi metal jacketed bullets than handguards, different sights, or opening up a loading port. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lead-Head Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 My loading port might look all shiney and hogged-out...but that was from natural erosion during extremely long SG stages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lead-Head Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 My loading port might look all shiney and hogged-out...but that was from natural erosion during extremely long SG stages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lead-Head Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 My loading port might look all shiney and hogged-out...but that was from natural erosion during extremely long SG stages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oak hill Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Only hosers don't like time plus scoring Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 This was brought to me by a national champion and I listened to their reason. Simply put time plus equalizes any penalties across each stage. An example a 10 second miss on a 30 second stage is worth 33 points in a factored stage. While that same miss on a 60 second stage is worth 16.5 points on factored. Time plus regardless of the stage carries the same value. If anyone thinks changing a handguard out on a rifle will move you to open evidently doesn't know me very well and the extent I go to ensuring fairness to the competitor. I don't think we are giving Larry enough credit. He is a lot, I mean A LOT smarter than he looks. My biggest problem is I've got to reread the rules. Heck I thought they were so good before we used them at the GIIIG match too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan 45 Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 (edited) Only hosers don't like time plus scoring Not true. My personal favorite, far above and beyond all other methods scoring is Horner. Everything other than an A is a penalty. 100 points for a 1 gun stage, 125 for a 2 gun stage, 150 for a 3 gun stage. Of course you need a proper paper target with a head to use this scoring. Edited August 21, 2014 by Bryan 45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark97se Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Only hosers don't like time plus scoring Not true. My personal favorite, far above and beyond all other methods scoring is Horner. Everything other than an A is a penalty. 100 points for a 1 gun stage, 125 for a 2 gun stage, 150 for a 3 gun stage. Of course you need a proper paper target with a head to use this scoring. +1 on the Horner scoring!!!! We don't shoot to miss and 2 D's is basically a miss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
busyhawk Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 I'm with ROB01 above...I just want to shoot. Now I do have to pay attention to the rules and will of course abide by them but I don't understand the big problem with Time Plus, I come for the shooting and fun and either scoring will accomplish that. Just another way to score the match, and if you don't like it someone on the wait list will be very happy to take your place!!! Hell, Time plus is exactly how the "Tour De France" is determined...have a bad stage (of 21 stages) and it will hurt as well. In the Tour they are looking for the same results don't they? In the Tour of course if you suck at the Mountains, flats, TTs or whatever stages it will reflect in your placing at the end just like Multigun. Of course I am not advocating French scoring Now I do like 100 points per stage because I relate to my other sport, Motocross (even though I believe I would get a better placement with Time Plus). Each moto is worth maximum points per moto and at the end if the points are the same after 2 motos, placement in the final moto is the over-riding factor. Just my .02 and thank you to bringing this to my attention as to what scoring system we are going to use at this match...even though either way I will have fun! Busyhawk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJW Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 See, busyhawk, now you did it. I am one of the ones who does not like Time-Plus match scoring, so I am going to start referring to it exclusively as "French Scoring." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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