Does 4.5.1 apply to a 'move the ammo can' stage if...

[Tactica]

General Question:

Does 4.5.1 apply to a 'move the ammo can' stage if it is filled with something, but the WSB doesn't say anything about the ammo can's contents and there is nothing otherwise securing the ammo can from being opened either before or during the COF?

Situation:

In a local match, WSB instructs shooter to start with ammo can in weak hand. Shooter has to deliver the ammo can to the end of the stage before the last shot was fired. Ammo can was latched, but nothing secured the latch from opening or being opened.

Roaming ROs in use. No walk of the stages beforehand, read the WSB and shoot.

In the WSB, there was no mention of whether the shooter had to maintain control of the can, or the contents of the can, or when to deliver it (other than before last shot fired). There was nothing on the can securing it to ensure it remained closed other than the default latch. However, it was filled with items (added weight).

Details:

Some opened / inspected contents.

Some shot the stage with the can in their weak hand the whole time.

Others tossed the can to the end of the stage, shot the first part, then picked up the can and delivered it and fired a shot into the berm.

When / if tossed, the can may or may not come open. *If* it came open, the ammo can may have been delivered in empty or full state to the barrel... as WSB didn't say otherwise (i.e. contents *may* have been on the ground).

Others later opened the can, emptied it, and then started the stage with an empty can, noting that the prop in question mentioned in the WSB was the *ammo can*. The ammo can's condition of closed / open, full / empty, or contents were not mentioned in the stage briefing, only the can itself was. (though it was obvious the intent of the MD was to weight the ammo can.)

Moreover, since the ammo can was not secured in anyway, there was no way to guarantee it's contents could even be maintained, or were not added to / reduced from / shifted / imbalanced / changed / etc from shooter to shooter.

+ + + Question + + +

So, what's your thoughts... does 4.5.1 apply to contents of an ammo can *if* the WSB does not address the contents and if the ammo can is not secured closed, and you are using roaming ROs and there are no other instructions?

+ + + Follow up + + +

if 4.5.1 does apply to the contents of the ammo can without it being secured or mentioned in the WSB, and if a competitor throws it and it opens and contents spill out,

- is it a range equipment failure...

- are they required to fill it back up and then deliver it on the clock...

- other?

if 4.5.1 does apply without it being secured shut, and roaming ROs are in use, and say the a whole squad intentionally empties it before starting the stage because they feel 4.5.1 only applies to the can, not its contents, what is the ramification for the MD to apply to the squad for shooting the stage with an emptied can when he finds out after the fact?

- one procedural for everyone on the squad?

- throw out stage?

- other?

Thank you,

[glandry51]

4.5 Directly speaks about "Rearrangement of Range Equipment or Surface". 4.5.1 states that: The competitor must not interfere with the range surface, natural foilage, construction, PROPS, or other range equipment at anytime. I would think (just my opinion which isn't much) that removing anything from the ammo can (PROP) would be interfering with it.

I believe 4.5.2 should have been used. Should have requested Match Officals clarify and correct so as to ensure consistency.

[whitedog]

Not an answer to yer question....but it sounds like people went out of their way to not shoot it as intended. Was first place award a new truck or something? All the ammo can acrobatics could not have improved their score by much.

[Tactica]

whitedog, local match - no award at all. Just a bunch of regulars that shoot together and some of which are very competitive trying to game the stage...

[cas]

Sounds like they went well past gaming the stage.

[B_Seehawer]

Sounds like they wasted their time emptying the can.

Oh, and I hate "as intended" rulings on stages. It defeats the purpose of the sport. It usually means the stage designer wasn't very creative and is placing his ego over the creativity of others.

What was the outcome of gamers vs. the guys that "followed" the rules?

[Nik Habicht]

The really smart way to incorporate a weighted ammo can into a stage is to have it drop through a hole in a wooden box onto a pressure switch -- which then activates movers......

[kevin c]

The really smart way to incorporate a weighted ammo can into a stage is to have it drop through a hole in a wooden box onto a pressure switch -- which then activates movers......

I've done that. Used a sealed powder jug filled with spent primers in expanding foam to keep from shifting or breaking open.

I would think, given that the prop was altered/interfered with, that reshoots would be needed once the can was restored to its original condition. If not possible (reshoots or restoration), the stage gets thrown out.

[B_Seehawer]

The really smart way to incorporate a weighted ammo can into a stage is to have it drop through a hole in a wooden box onto a pressure switch -- which then activates movers......

I wanna shoot your stages.

Likey likey

[Nik Habicht]

The really smart way to incorporate a weighted ammo can into a stage is to have it drop through a hole in a wooden box onto a pressure switch -- which then activates movers......

I wanna shoot your stages.

Likey likey

Old Bridge, NJ. I didn't invent it -- theyh came up with a large open-bottomed wooden box with a hole in the top through which an ammo can will just fit. Inside at the bottom rear is attached a hinged board, that is able to angle up inside the box, forming a ramp. On the front, inside the box are eyelets with bungee cords, which connect to matching eyelets on the top front of the board, elevating it at an angle within the box. At the top center of the angled board, and I believe on the inside top of the box are two eyelets. Attach rope to the board eyelet after running it in through a hole in the front of the box, and through the eyelet on the top inside of the box, and attach the other end of the rope to a barge stick, or a port cover.

When the ammo can is dropped in the hole, the weight over comes the pull of the bungies, and the board drops pulling more rope in through the front of the box, and opening the port/collapsing the barge stick.....

All of a sudden there's an actual purpose to carrying the can, as opposed to a "procedural reason....."

[sperman]

When / if tossed, the can may or may not come open. *If* it came open, the ammo can may have been delivered in empty or full state to the barrel... as WSB didn't say otherwise (i.e. contents *may* have been on the ground).

This problem could have been easily prevented with a little bit of tape holding the latch shut (or a tie wrap, or something similar.)

Others later opened the can, emptied it, and then started the stage with an empty can, noting that the prop in question mentioned in the WSB was the *ammo can*. The ammo can's condition of closed / open, full / empty, or contents were not mentioned in the stage briefing, only the can itself was. (though it was obvious the intent of the MD was to weight the ammo can.)

The RO never should have allowed this, if they were doing this before the buzzer. Would the RO allow them to move the walls, or activate a swinger before the timer goes off? This is no different. If they want to take the time to empty the can after the buzzer goes off, more power to them, but no one is going to waste their time doing that, especially if the latch is properly secured.

[Olivers_AR]

Suggest that the WSB should be clearer with stage designer's intent or tack weld the can shut.

[Tactica]

Sperman: There's always more to the 'real' story on match day, the prop (ammo can) did start with tape over the latch (so I'm told), so that it was sealed and could not be opened unless 'tampered' with. Wasn't my squad, don't know the situation. However, it was opened. Moreover, it appears to have happened on more than one occasion by more than one squad throughout the day for various reasons. Eventually, either by throwing or by inquisitive and/or forgetful shooters (?) the tape was removed and never restored. (again, local match with roaming ROs that were not advised about this stage or ammo can prop before the match.) Nobody knew how to handle it until we arrived. Eventually, squads were arriving to the stage with no tape on an ammo can that had stuff in it and a WSB that left little to be desired. So, on match day, the can was handled differently by different folks all day long.

Had there been static ROs - whoever removed the tape would have been issued a procedural per 4.5.1 as the tape would have been clearly securing the prop and been a fastener for the device. It's contents would have been integral. Tape would have been restored, contents would never have been removed in advance, no event.

Hindsight, I think the stage should have been thrown out had the MD found out about all this on match day, considering what all happened, but... that's not the question

+ + + +

My question stems from the match, but more a hypothetical as that's not how the ammo can started.

So, *If* the MD builds the stage and doesn't put the tape on the ammo can *to start*, it presents an interesting situation for discussion, as some of our squads encountered later in the day.... which is the real point of my question.

Are the contents of the prop considered part of the prop or not?

To elaborate: Doors, briefcases, walls with sliding openings, stowage containers, etc are props and can be opened / closed before a buzzer. Some props simply sit on a table, others are carried and delivered, others are opened to gain access to a stage. All can be freely opened during walk through. Some of these props can 'hold' or 'store' items. However, if the prop 'contains something' and the WSB doesn't mention it, and the prop isn't fastened, are the contents part of the prop?

If they are part of the prop, and they spill out in the middle of a course of fire, then logic would dictate that during a 'delivery' type CoF, that the shooter must either be required to collect the contents and deliver the entire prop in order to fulfill the WSB to avoid the procedural... or its an equipment malfunction if not designed to open... but an ammo can is designed to open, so is it opening a challenge the competitor is tasked to manage and a risk they take should they choose to throw it?

If the contents are not part of the prop, since the contents were not listed as part of the WSB and the ammo can / container was not secured, can the competitor freely remove contents from the prop before the buzzer without violating 4.5.1 as long as the prop (ammo can) is closed in the proper condition mentioned (if any) in the WSB, or can the competitor start with the ammo can/ container hanging open / closed - their choice, if the WSB doesn't say what condition the ammo can is to be started in?

Thanks,

[outerlimits]

Easy solution-handcuffs

[Tactica]

LOL

[ChuckS]

--- snip ---

Are the contents of the prop considered part of the prop or not?

--- snip ---

Consider a stage that has a shooting area defined by fault lines. The WSB says to engage the targets when visible from within the shooting area. There are movable prop walls out side the shooting area that are visual barriers that are not mentioned in the WSB. Is it legal for shooters to move the walls because they are not mentioned in the WSB? Don't think so.

Same goes for the box o' rocks. If the box had the cargo at the start of the match, changing the prop (unloading the box) constitutes modifying stage equipment and should be a procedural for the offender and re-shoot for those that shot after the modification. Practically, it meant throwing out the stage since there was probably no clear resolution.

Roving RO's and "local match" means nothing. The competitors screwed with the props. Shame on them.

Later,

Chuck

PS: To build on Butch's idea: you can handcuff welded boxes to each shooter at the start of the match. The division winners get the keys. The winners can then negotiate box removals from the losers.

[sperman]

What chuck said.

[whitedog]

Tomfoolery and shenanigans. Don't see the point.

[Sarge]

Tomfoolery and shenanigans. Don't see the point.

He said shenanigans!

[Supermoto]

Old Bridge, NJ. I didn't invent it -- theyh came up with a large open-bottomed wooden box with a hole in the top through which an ammo can will just fit. Inside at the bottom rear is attached a hinged board, that is able to angle up inside the box, forming a ramp. On the front, inside the box are eyelets with bungee cords, which connect to matching eyelets on the top front of the board, elevating it at an angle within the box. At the top center of the angled board, and I believe on the inside top of the box are two eyelets. Attach rope to the board eyelet after running it in through a hole in the front of the box, and through the eyelet on the top inside of the box, and attach the other end of the rope to a barge stick, or a port cover.

When the ammo can is dropped in the hole, the weight over comes the pull of the bungies, and the board drops pulling more rope in through the front of the box, and opening the port/collapsing the barge stick.....

All of a sudden there's an actual purpose to carrying the can, as opposed to a "procedural reason....."

This sounds like a fun one to shoot. The ones I have shot recently, it was always better to take the procedurals

Edited September 26, 2013 by Supermoto

[Nik Habicht]

Rob,

Sperman said it pretty well in post 11. Bottom line, this should have been prevented through better planning by the match staff (Maybe run Duct or packaging tape all the way around the can?), an announcement during the walkthrough, and considering embedded ROs a detailed and expansive WSB.....

[sperman]

Where was the RO when the shooter was pulling this BS? He never should have been allowed to do that. If he insisted, then the rulebook has procedures to deal with that (starting with a procedural penalty, and going as high as a DQ for USC.)

[latech15]

I understand the questions here and I am going to be right up front. The purpose of my post is not to answer the question, rather to simply to ask a few questions that may help shooters not get into this situation again.

What was the point of weighting the box? Does a weighted box make a fundamental difference in the difficulty of the stage?

Why not just use a bowling ball or something that starts off heavy if that is what you are after?

From a stage design standpoint, if you know that your club has a membership that games things to this level, then you have to take at into consideration when using props like this. If you want a prop that must be moved, either realize at the weight of said prop makes very little fundamental difference, or use something that cannot be tampered with.

At my club, I would either put it into the wsb that the weight is integral, or not use it at all. We have a pretty laid back membership that would look at a situation like a box full of rocks as a stage prop and understand that the rocks were put there on purpose and leave the crap alone.

I would hate to be a stage designer at a club like yours if it really is as bad as it sounds here.

The simple discussion of rules to this minute level is why I am one of the ones referenced in the other thread about why USPSA shooters are leaving and going to 3-gun.

[frag316]

I think the stage designer's intent was to make it necessary to hold the prop in your hand, rather than just attach it to a magnet on your belt--that's why it was weighted.

He may not have had access to or thought of using a bowling ball (which strikes me as a bad idea, simply because it's not easy for all shooters to hang onto safely--we have a junior who's about 75# soaking wet while wearing her open rig).

From a stage design standpoint, if you know that your club has a membership that games things to this level, then you have to take at into consideration when using props like this.

That's the odd part about all of this. As far as I know, we haven't had an issue like this at this particular club, or any other club regularly visited by our circle of shooters. In our area, we can generally get to at least one match every weekend and two on at least half of them in a given month with no more than two hours of driving. Lots of us wind up seeing each other at various clubs, because we travel to all or most of the matches. If this has happened before, I've not heard about it.

The simple discussion of rules to this minute level is why I am one of the ones referenced in the other thread about why USPSA shooters are leaving and going to 3-gun.

This may be true, however, I doubt many of the folks at this match who shoot USPSA on a regular basis had this mindset with regards to this particular prop. I'm somewhat shocked that none of the other ROs objected--I know I would have, had I been in that squad.

And, to reference a post I saw earlier, I don't believe the prop was tampered with on the clock--the shooter(s) started with the weight out of the can before the buzzer went off.

At my club, I would either put it into the wsb that the weight is integral, or not use it at all. We have a pretty laid back membership that would look at a situation like a box full of rocks as a stage prop and understand that the rocks were put there on purpose and leave the crap alone.

These two sentences are talking across each other. Why would you need to put it into the WSB that the weight is integral, if your membership would recognize that they're supposed to leave the prop alone? It has to be one or the other.

[Flexmoney]

One of the Moderating Team locked this before I got to it. I went ahead and removed about 17 posts.

Don't bring your local infighting to this forum. Ain't nobody got time for that.!

- Admin.