What's Your Call

[de03x7]

The stage has two swinging no-shoots and a double swinging shoot target behind them. There is also a stationary shoot target on each side. The swinging no-shoots obstruct both the stationary targets and the double swinger. All three swingers are activated by opening a door. The first five or six shooters kick the door wide open and everything activates as the designer wanted.

Then a shooter goes through the door but didn't slam it open like the rest had. Only one of the no-shoot and the double activate. The shooter shoots all of the targets with only one no-shoot swinger in his way then shoulders the door the rest of the way open and the second no-shoot activates. The RO askes if he wants a reshoot and the shooter askes why, everything is swinging. He did not reshoot the stage.

The next shooter goes thru the door and again the second no-shoot is not acttivated. He stops without firing at any of the targets and asked for and was given a reshoot because the no-shoot swinger did not activate. When the door was fully opened the swinger did activate.

I understand that this is a design problem but it didn't show up until several shooters had gone through the stage. There was also the potental for shoot throughs but that never became a problem. For the rest of the match the cable was twisted a half turn around the activater stick and this caused the swinger to activate with the others every time. Neither shooter was in danger of winning the match so no one protested but I would like to see how everyone else would have scored this.

I say the first shooter got lucky and the stage should be scored as shot because everything did activate even if it was late. The second shooter should have been scored as shot with misses and failure to engage becaues the swinger did activate when the door was fully opened.

[motosapiens]

I would have called REF and required both shooters to reshoot.

Clearly, the intent of the stage was to have all swingers activated.

Edited June 18, 2013 by motosapiens

[StraightUp_OG]

I would think both need to reshoot:

2.3 Modifications to Course Construction

2.3.3 If the Range Master approves any such action after the match begins he

must either:

2.3.3.1 Allow the course of fire to continue with the modification affect-

ing only those competitors who have not already completed the

stage. If a competitor’s actions caused the change, that competi-

tor must be required to reshoot the altered course of fire; or

2.3.3.2 If possible, require all competitors to complete the course of fire

as revised with all previous attempts removed from the match

scores

[JAFO]

I would have stopped the shooter for REF as soon as I saw the third swinger not moving. If it happened on two shooters in a row, it's time to fix the props.

[parashooter38]

I thought the rule was that if there was a range equpiment malfunction That the shooter got a reshoot.the shooter did not have a choice to take the reshoot or not.

[MarkCO]

How is it REF if the door being fully opened activated the swinger as intended? I am not taking a stand either way for the record...

[GuildSF4]

Re-shoot for both as StraightUp_OG said. The prop was modified after the attempt on the course of fire and could influence the score of the shooter.

(It affected when the no-shoots activated and therefore 'the physical or procedural change results in a loss of competitive equity'.) (Prior to the change the shooter could deliberately or otherwise activate part of the no-shoot siwngers, after the change they could not.)

2.3.3.2 If possible, require all competitors to complete the course of fire as revised with all previous attempts removed from the match scores. (if not possible see rule 2.3.4).

Edited for clarity.

Edited June 18, 2013 by GuildSF4

[bikerburgess]

How is it REF if the door being fully opened activated the swinger as intended? I am not taking a stand either way for the record...

This,

open door quickly and carelessly and they all activate open door slowly and carefully and you may get one not to start till you want it to. to me it sounds like a great idea for a stage design.

[MarkCO]

How is it REF if the door being fully opened activated the swinger as intended? I am not taking a stand either way for the record...

This,

open door quickly and carelessly and they all activate open door slowly and carefully and you may get one not to start till you want it to. to me it sounds like a great idea for a stage design.

Agree that it was not consistent. Not a design issue, rather a set-up, implementation issue.

I would not call it REF. 2.3.3.2 appears to be the rule that would be relevant...course changed, everyone re-shoots, even the first 5 or 6.

[CHA-LEE]

Swinging no shoots in front of swingers and static targets............ How would you score the shoot targets correctly if a shooter decided to pound a bunch of shots through the swinging no shoot? That stage sounds like a shoot through nightmare.

The ONLY way a swinging no shoot works effectively is if its steel. Good luck finding a "Steel" swinger that does not give the match staff a hernia hauling it around and setting it up.

[CHA-LEE]

As for the activating targets not activating until the door is opened all the way up, I say that it is what it is after the start of the match. If a shooter finds a loop hole in the stage where they can get through the door without setting off the swinging no shoots, then good for them. That would need to be chalked up to a "Lesson" for the stage designer.

If the stage was modified to change the activation requirement of the no shoot swinger (door being pushed all the way open) then you have effectively modified the stage and the only way to deal with that is to reshoot everyone that shot it with the prior configuration, or throw out the stage. There would be a timing difference of when the swinging no shoot is activated so it wouldn't be the same shooting challenge.

[Bunchies95]

Swinging no shoots in front of swingers and static targets............ How would you score the shoot targets correctly if a shooter decided to pound a bunch of shots through the swinging no shoot? That stage sounds like a shoot through nightmare.

The ONLY way a swinging no shoot works effectively is if its steel. Good luck finding a "Steel" swinger that does not give the match staff a hernia hauling it around and setting it up.

This was the case at this year's Double Tap. The no-shoots were not swinging, but a guy on my squad put 4 holes into them, right as the swinging target was behind them. RO couldn't determine the hits and ordered a reshoot.

[kevin c]

As for the activating targets not activating until the door is opened all the way up, I say that it is what it is after the start of the match. If a shooter finds a loop hole in the stage where they can get through the door without setting off the swinging no shoots, then good for them. That would need to be chalked up to a "Lesson" for the stage designer.

If the stage was modified to change the activation requirement of the no shoot swinger (door being pushed all the way open) then you have effectively modified the stage and the only way to deal with that is to reshoot everyone that shot it with the prior configuration, or throw out the stage. There would be a timing difference of when the swinging no shoot is activated so it wouldn't be the same shooting challenge.

This is how I see it as well.

[HI5-O]

As for the activating targets not activating until the door is opened all the way up, I say that it is what it is after the start of the match. If a shooter finds a loop hole in the stage where they can get through the door without setting off the swinging no shoots, then good for them. That would need to be chalked up to a "Lesson" for the stage designer.

If the stage was modified to change the activation requirement of the no shoot swinger (door being pushed all the way open) then you have effectively modified the stage and the only way to deal with that is to reshoot everyone that shot it with the prior configuration, or throw out the stage. There would be a timing difference of when the swinging no shoot is activated so it wouldn't be the same shooting challenge.

This is how I see it as well.

Me too.

[Nik Habicht]

Swinging no shoots in front of swingers and static targets............ How would you score the shoot targets correctly if a shooter decided to pound a bunch of shots through the swinging no shoot? That stage sounds like a shoot through nightmare.

The ONLY way a swinging no shoot works effectively is if its steel. Good luck finding a "Steel" swinger that does not give the match staff a hernia hauling it around and setting it up.

In reality it doesn't have to be a nightmare. The 2002 A8 Factory Gun Championship had a swinging no-shoot in front of three targets. All targets were inside a port, and were fairly short range -- maybe 15 feet max? On the rare shoot-through, it was easy to align the swinging no-shoot with the targets behind and determine which apparent hit had first passed through as a full diameter hit on the swinger....

It probably helped that there weren't diverse angles from which those targets could be engaged....

[GuildSF4]

Also on shoot-thrus the grease mark tells the story. (On the rare load/gun that doesn't make a grease mark I understand, most do though. (I would guess >95% do)).

The real reason for the re-shoot in this case is the change to the course of fire as mentioned earlier.

[wide45]

In reality it doesn't have to be a nightmare. The 2002 A8 Factory Gun Championship had a swinging no-shoot in front of three targets. All targets were inside a port, and were fairly short range -- maybe 15 feet max? On the rare shoot-through, it was easy to align the swinging no-shoot with the targets behind and determine which apparent hit had first passed through as a full diameter hit on the swinger....

It probably helped that there weren't diverse angles from which those targets could be engaged....

Is this a violation of rule 2.1.8 ? Note the word "must".

2.1.8 Target Placement – Care must be taken with the physical placement of a paper target to prevent a “shoot through”.

[Nik Habicht]

In reality it doesn't have to be a nightmare. The 2002 A8 Factory Gun Championship had a swinging no-shoot in front of three targets. All targets were inside a port, and were fairly short range -- maybe 15 feet max? On the rare shoot-through, it was easy to align the swinging no-shoot with the targets behind and determine which apparent hit had first passed through as a full diameter hit on the swinger....

It probably helped that there weren't diverse angles from which those targets could be engaged....

Is this a violation of rule 2.1.8 ? Note the word "must".

2.1.8 Target Placement – Care must be taken with the physical placement of a paper target to prevent a “shoot through”.

Nope. Shoot throughs were avoidable by the shooter. No different than a disappearing target disappearing behind a no-shoot, i.e. clamshell, bear trap, some out and back set-ups....

[gng4life]

What did the WSB? Do you have a copy of it?

[kamikaze1a]

In reality it doesn't have to be a nightmare. The 2002 A8 Factory Gun Championship had a swinging no-shoot in front of three targets. All targets were inside a port, and were fairly short range -- maybe 15 feet max? On the rare shoot-through, it was easy to align the swinging no-shoot with the targets behind and determine which apparent hit had first passed through as a full diameter hit on the swinger....

It probably helped that there weren't diverse angles from which those targets could be engaged....

Is this a violation of rule 2.1.8 ? Note the word "must".

2.1.8 Target Placement – Care must be taken with the physical placement of a paper target to prevent a “shoot through”.

Nope. Shoot throughs were avoidable by the shooter. No different than a disappearing target disappearing behind a no-shoot, i.e. clamshell, bear trap, some out and back set-ups....

This makes me wonder how most score clamshell targets that have a hit on the NS? Do you look for absence of grease marks?

[Nik Habicht]

In reality it doesn't have to be a nightmare. The 2002 A8 Factory Gun Championship had a swinging no-shoot in front of three targets. All targets were inside a port, and were fairly short range -- maybe 15 feet max? On the rare shoot-through, it was easy to align the swinging no-shoot with the targets behind and determine which apparent hit had first passed through as a full diameter hit on the swinger....

It probably helped that there weren't diverse angles from which those targets could be engaged....

Is this a violation of rule 2.1.8 ? Note the word "must".

2.1.8 Target Placement – Care must be taken with the physical placement of a paper target to prevent a “shoot through”.

Nope. Shoot throughs were avoidable by the shooter. No different than a disappearing target disappearing behind a no-shoot, i.e. clamshell, bear trap, some out and back set-ups....

This makes me wonder how most score clamshell targets that have a hit on the NS? Do you look for absence of grease marks?

That and try to line up the holes.....

Usually there's only a single scoring hit that will align with the no-shoot hit....

[de03x7]

What did the WSB? Do you have a copy of it?

Stage Procedure: On Audible signal engage T1-T2 and T7-T8 with two rounds each through port from box A. Proceed through door and engage targets T3-T6 from within fault lines.

T1-2 and 7-8 were outside the walls. 3-6 were not available until the door was opened. The first shooters that went through the door busted it wide open and everything activated as was intended. The first shooter that it did not activate for went in slow, shot the targets before the one no shoot activated but then bumped the door all the way open and it then activated. There was no intent by the shooter to game the stage, he just didn't kick the door in like everyone else had. He made all of the required shots and everything on the stage activated one of them a little late.

The next shooter also went slow through the door and when the no shoot was not swinging he stopped and asked for a reshoot. The RO had not stopped him but gave him the reshoot anyway. After ULASC the door was pushed all the way open and the swinger activated.

At this point on the cable was twisted a half turn during reset to make sure that everything activated when the door opened. The shooter that shot without the no shoot swinging was not a "contender" and it worked for everyone else so no one got excited about it.

I wanted to see how others would call it. If I had been the RO I would have said the first shooter did everything that he needed to and everything activated even though it was late. I would have scored the second shooter with the misses and FTE because he stopped himself and the swinger activated when the door was fully opened. He could have taken it up with the rangemaster and I wouldn't have cared what the decision was. Again this shooter was not a "contender" so it wouldn't have made a difference in the outcome.

[sperman]

Again this shooter was not a "contender" so it wouldn't have made a difference in the outcome.

The rules should be applied the same to all competitors, whether they are a "contender" or not.

[JAFO]

How is it REF if the door being fully opened activated the swinger as intended? I am not taking a stand either way for the record...

I agree it's a setup problem in the stage, but if, as the RO, I know that all three swingers should activate upon opening the door, I would call STOP at seeing one of them not moving if the shooter had opened the door and started engaging the targets. I'm not going to wait until the shooter finishes the CoF before ordering the reshoot. Now, if he pushes the door the rest of the way and the mover activates before I stop him, then let him finish. But at the point where the door is open and the movers have not all activated, I don't know if it's the door position or a problem with the swinger.

Edited June 21, 2013 by JAFO

[de03x7]

Again this shooter was not a "contender" so it wouldn't have made a difference in the outcome.

The rules should be applied the same to all competitors, whether they are a "contender" or not.

I agree and the rules say that if the shooter stops himself that the stage will be scored as shot. If the rangemaster wanted to call it REF and give the reshoot I would not had an issue with his call either. If I had been the RO I would have said that he satified the WSB by procedding through the door. It does not say to oprn the door to activate swingers and all of the shoot targets were available to him. Suppose he saw untaped holes instead of the no shoot swinger not moving. If he is shooting a 45 and the untaped holes were 9mm and he stops himself it would be scored as shot.