Revolver Division -- where is the post-Nationals surge?

[bdpaz]

I did smile a little at the thought of the "big ICORE matches". Outside of the IRC that's pretty close to an oxymoron.

I smile a bit when I hear ICORE matches {big or little) and all the ICORE shooters that will come running. You guys in A2 have it good.

Two points: "All the ICORE shooters..." doesn't have to be very many to make a huge percentage increase in Revo, and I do appreciate the benefits of living in Area 2.

I also want apologize if I came across as making fun of ICORE matches. I truly appreciate the various ICORE matches and those who do the work to make them happen (because I shoot in as many as I can!). I just can't picture someone thinking they'll gain enough by dominating ICORE that they are scheming to corrupt another sport to do it.

.

Edited July 2, 2013 by bdpaz

[Carmoney]

But ICORE left USPSA due to the equipment race and now the ICORE guys want to equipment race USPSA revo to match ICORE...still seems like a lot of effort for a few hundred members with no long term benefit to USPSA in general.

Mark, this kind of stuff is not helpful.

No? Popular opinion or not, it does highlight a perspective. We are, in reality, talking about racing with a more specialized gun than is the norm/popular.

I guess it's helpful to the extent that it reveals how certain people think.

[ChrisC]

So we should limit the options uspsa members have and narrow the mission of uspsa to only three division because as of now they are the most popular....... think of all that extra room at the table.....

Or

We can support all of the divisions because we want a place for everyone to add diversity in the organization.....

[MarkCO]

Was not the OP "Where is the post nationals surge" as in it does not exist? I totally understand the revolver enthusiasts wanting a bigger and better division within USPSA with more competition, but at what cost?

It is clear that some of you don't like what I have said, however, both sides of an issue need to be explored in order to make a logical choice. If there was any merit to the arguments you all are making that these proposed changes would INCREASE membership or HEALTH of USPSA, I would certainly be for it. However, it all looks like a shell game to appease a few, possibly at the cost of many. The messages I have been sent have actually been supportive, and thanking me for laying out the potential pitfalls. Even some revolver shooters are not sure which side of the battle to be on.

This is afterall a discussion, and when guys like Mike choose to attack me personally instead of have a discussion...well that is an answer in itself.

[pskys2]

No ICORE near me.

I would love to shoot icore, but there is nothing available by me.

No ICORE anywhere near here, unfortunately.

Where is my "Simple" button... http://www.icore.org/Clubs.html

Thanks? But still no icore near me

Kind of missed the point. If you would "love" to shoot ICORE, then start a club. I wanted to shoot IDPA, so I started a club. I wanted to shoot 3Gun, so I started a club. If there are SO many people wanting to shoot Revolver, and ICORE has done it right, then start a club and shoot what you love. I am sure you will have scads of like minded people come out of the woodwork to help you.

Heck, I don't even shoot IDPA anymore and I just helped a new IDPA club get started at our range. Funny thing, NO ONE has ever asked about the feasibility of starting an ICORE club at our range, but we have just about every other shooting sport available.

It "seems" that there are a few people who want to shoot Revolver, but there are no ICORE clubs, so their answer is to change USPSA Revo so it is closer to ICORE so they can be practiced up for the big ICORE matches. But ICORE left USPSA due to the equipment race and now the ICORE guys want to equipment race USPSA revo to match ICORE...still seems like a lot of effort for a few hundred members with no long term benefit to USPSA in general.

The few places that have small ICORE clubs may see decline, and then USPSA local is going to have further pressure to match ICORE so the people who shoot revo can be practiced up. Seems like a dangerous dance.

I don't believe it's the ICORE competitors trying to change USPSA. I do think it's some USPSA guys, TGO, Mike, myself and several others?, who think the move would benefit the Division due to it being more in line with the current USPSA dynamics, and therefor more fun?.

I've been at this whole game quite a while, and am aware of the down side and recognize the up side. I know it will change the Division I just don't know how much, but that is the founding principle of IPSC. Even among those who do compete in USPSA Revolver there is no consensus, and some strong feelings against even.

Unfortunately the group now competing on a regular basis is so small that I for one hope the BOD will not make their decision based solely on our thoughts. I am confident whatever decision they make will be for the best of USPSA at this time.

Edited July 2, 2013 by pskys2

[rgkeller]

So change the Division Rules.

Just don't change the stage design rules.

[Flexmoney]

We can support all of the divisions because we want a place for everyone to add diversity in the organization.....

Yet, we have diversity...in the form of Steel Challenge (local matches). Talk about a perfect place to play with an 8-shot revolver. I'm not sure we see the turn out though?

[MarkCO]

pskys2, good post, I generally agree.

I think the BOD will make the best choice given the data and information, and that is as they should. But, regardless of the choice made, only time will tell if that choice will produce fruit, or kill the vine.

[Bosshoss]

We can support all of the divisions because we want a place for everyone to add diversity in the organization.....

Yet, we have diversity...in the form of Steel Challenge (local matches). Talk about a perfect place to play with an 8-shot revolver. I'm not sure we see the turn out though?

Flex I shoot steel most every month with a 627 and there are 2 of us shooting revolver class(with 627's). There are sometimes 2 or 3 including me shooting rimfire revolver class but we are still the weird guy's shooting those round things .

Revolver class is still the smallest class in steel shoots at the club I shoot at.

[bdpaz]

We can support all of the divisions because we want a place for everyone to add diversity in the organization.....

Yet, we have diversity...in the form of Steel Challenge (local matches). Talk about a perfect place to play with an 8-shot revolver. I'm not sure we see the turn out though?

You don't see the turnout because it is Steel Challenge.

[Bosshoss]

I feel the discussions in these threads is good for trying to help the division grow. I don't understand where some are saying that if we don't do these changes the division will die. Why would it die? Revolver division has been around for what 10-12 years and I would guess that over those years that it has had about the same number of shooters with small ups and downs thru the years.

The nationals filled up this year and I would guess that 95% of those that shot the nationals have went back to their regular guns(autos) now. How many of these shooters would now be still shooting revolvers if 8 minor was allowed? My guess is 0. It will be a gun that they breakout for a couple of matches before the nationals and when the nationals are over it will be put until next year. Alot of shooters are doing this very thing now with the current rules. I see no reason to expect a change.

In the mean time there are a group of diehard revolver shooters that are the backbone of this division and some seem to forget or care about what they want. I know that some of them are on here and have posted their opinion for and against the change.

A poll on a forum is not the best way to find this out as anyone can vote even if they have no intention of ever shooting revolver and I know alot of shooters don't even hang out on the forums so it is a small database.

I have talked to several who shoot revolver a couple times a year and some of the diehards and most everyone is opposed to the change with a couple of shooters like me who would support it if there was data to show that it would help and be fair to the current 6 shot guns and that some thought went into it and things like the classifiers have been resolved.

So until I see this info I'm a NO vote for the change. By the way I shoot revolver ONLY in USPSA( since I returned to the sport 18 months ago), ICORE, and steel.

To be fair I have been in several discussions at the matches lately and have had a couple of shooters say they would buy a 627 and TRY it if it was allowed. I ask them why they don't have one now? They can shoot it several USPSA classes now why wait on a rule change? I don't put a lot of faith in someone who might buy a revolver to maybe try a division they have never tried before and I sure wouldn't change the rules because of a maybe.

So why will the division die if nothing changes? It doesn't cost anything to leave it as is and the nationals proved their was interest with the rules as is. I just don't see this change increasing the local numbers any except maybe where their are a ALOT of ICORE shooters and that would be what 3 or 4 clubs around the country.

The one's that are saying revolver will die if this doesn't pass please explain why it will die, what will be different than the last 10 or 12 years? Give me something to think about.

[dcloudy777]

. Too much reloading, they want 6 shot arrays, low round counts.

That's the beauty of my "MajorX2" system. It makes stages more "revolver friendly" without actually changing the stages.

Yeah but you're changing the game to try and attract people who don't really want to play the game.

I think it "changes the game" less than allowing 8-shot guns in and making virtually every current revolver shooter's gun instantly uncompetitive....

[TGO]

Going all-minor for revolvers would bring out droves of those K-frame .38 owners. Right up until they realized that they need to reload on the move and they might have to run. Then they'll angrily snap their suspenders, put their khaki vests back on and never be seen again.

That's funny!

[TGO]

But ICORE left USPSA due to the equipment race and now the ICORE guys want to equipment race USPSA revo to match ICORE...still seems like a lot of effort for a few hundred members with no long term benefit to USPSA in general.

Mark, this kind of stuff is not helpful.

I agree Mike, and by the way, this isn't a lot of effort. If you do not now or ever want to shoot revolver, don't! However, allowing or causing it to die BECAUSE you don't makes no sense. If you don't care, this doesn't concern you. We should probably cut out juniors, seniors and the classification system too? Many small groups exist in our sport. If they do not concern you and do not hurt you, let them be! This isn't to convince you to shoot a division you do not want, it is to allow more that do to enjoy and be competitive in a division they choose! Again, how can this hurt the sport?

[TGO]

Was not the OP "Where is the post nationals surge" as in it does not exist? I totally understand the revolver enthusiasts wanting a bigger and better division within USPSA with more competition, but at what cost?

It is clear that some of you don't like what I have said, however, both sides of an issue need to be explored in order to make a logical choice. If there was any merit to the arguments you all are making that these proposed changes would INCREASE membership or HEALTH of USPSA, I would certainly be for it. However, it all looks like a shell game to appease a few, possibly at the cost of many. The messages I have been sent have actually been supportive, and thanking me for laying out the potential pitfalls. Even some revolver shooters are not sure which side of the battle to be on.

This is afterall a discussion, and when guys like Mike choose to attack me personally instead of have a discussion...well that is an answer in itself.

How does this "cost the many" In any way?? There is no "many"! This is a try at adding participation.

I understand wanting to get in on the discussion, but Mike is right. The statements being made by many not interested in the division, I really can't consider until it is proven to me how it is damaging them! If you are a revolver shooter and have not contacted your AD, do that. It is way more important than sharing views on this forum.

[rgkeller]

But ICORE left USPSA due to the equipment race and now the ICORE guys want to equipment race USPSA revo to match ICORE...still seems like a lot of effort for a few hundred members with no long term benefit to USPSA in general.

Mark, this kind of stuff is not helpful.

I agree Mike, and by the way, this isn't a lot of effort. If you do not now or ever want to shoot revolver, don't! However, allowing or causing it to die BECAUSE you don't makes no sense. If you don't care, this doesn't concern you. We should probably cut out juniors, seniors and the classification system too? Many small groups exist in our sport. If they do not concern you and do not hurt you, let them be! This isn't to convince you to shoot a division you do not want, it is to allow more that do to enjoy and be competitive in a division they choose! Again, how can this hurt the sport?

Can't hurt the sport unless folks begin monkeying with stage design to make revolver shooters "happy."

[TGO]

The whole "revolver will die" mentality is based on the fact that to most not in the division now, it is dead already. I feel there is not enough participation to make the results valid in most circumstances. I do not like this fact. The Nationals with 120 shooters validates the division and the results. Having Jerry beat ANYONE who wanted to shoot, because they didn't have to choose between it or another division, validates his status as Champion. Sorry, but winning a match of 17 shooters doesn't really. Not to me. I'm not here to hurt feelings because even with the 17 competitors in 2012, the top guys were in attendance and the results were valid and conclusive. Now however, there can be no question. All those "I can do that" shooters that didn't compete are now completely silent.

OK, so that's how I feel, but I am also one of those that will not be back to shooting a revolver until after the next series of Nationals are over. Wanna know why? Because I'll be preparing for those Nationals, just like I haven't been shooting L10, limited or production until after the revolver Nationals were over.

So do I need to shoot it all year to want it to be healthy? No! At our club, the majority of shooters are using whatever is coming up next. It's fun and keeps the game from becoming Stagnant. When a 3 gun match is coming up, we see a reduction in pistol shooting and an increase in rifle/shotgun.

Would revolver die without this change? Of course not, unless USPSA see's keeping the division as more trouble than it's worth. Would it be better to try something that may bring in more shooters to the division? Only if growth, any growth is deemed desirable. We do not need more than a couple shooters at a club to become involved to see a huge increase. Let's do whatever will jump start that. Status quo, is not.

[TGO]

But ICORE left USPSA due to the equipment race and now the ICORE guys want to equipment race USPSA revo to match ICORE...still seems like a lot of effort for a few hundred members with no long term benefit to USPSA in general.

Mark, this kind of stuff is not helpful.

I agree Mike, and by the way, this isn't a lot of effort. If you do not now or ever want to shoot revolver, don't! However, allowing or causing it to die BECAUSE you don't makes no sense. If you don't care, this doesn't concern you. We should probably cut out juniors, seniors and the classification system too? Many small groups exist in our sport. If they do not concern you and do not hurt you, let them be! This isn't to convince you to shoot a division you do not want, it is to allow more that do to enjoy and be competitive in a division they choose! Again, how can this hurt the sport?

Can't hurt the sport unless folks begin monkeying with stage design to make revolver shooters "happy."

Don't worry, no one cares on either side if they leave the COF running the way it is, except me. I want and have always thought the Classifiers should be the same for all divisions. Even if they did, it wouldn't make any difference at the club level as most clubs in our area ignore the 8 shot thing anyway.

Edited July 2, 2013 by TGO

[ChrisC]

Even the bottom guys from 2012 was in attendance in 2013

[tomfturner]

After reading a lot of this, I'm seeing a pattern. Maybe I'm way off, but without getting the manufacturers involved in making whatever choice the BOD comes up with to make it more "attractive", revo division growth may be stagnant.

Everyone keeps comparing with production. Let's look at the market on that one, every major manufacturer of firearms on the market right now has a product that is "tailor made" to production division (XDM 5.25, M&P 9 pro, Glock 34, FNx 9L ... etc.), but when we start looking at the market for revolvers you have the 686, 627 and 625 (I know there are others in minor six , but for the most part you get my point ... please stay on topic). Is that because they don't want defensive use revolvers to sell, of course not, but where the failing is, is to attract enough "market" to bring the next cool thing in to the "boring old wheel-gun". Why not try to encourage manufacturers to make something gamey for sport-shooters not just "revolver guys", the TRR8 kinda falls into that "cool factor", but it's not legal for USPSA revo division atm. Having a 686 factory gun cut for moons would be kinda cool too, or a Rhino cut for moon clips as it comes .

I'm seeing this as a chicken and egg thing for the manufacturers as well, but cutting guns from the factory for moons or re-introducting the 646 (or some competitor) might be "easy" to be able to breath some life back into the market.

As I said at the begining I might be way off.

Edited July 3, 2013 by tomfturner

[Bosshoss]

After reading a lot of this, I'm seeing a pattern. Maybe I'm way off, but without getting the manufacturers involved in making whatever choice the BOD comes up with to make it more "attractive", revo division growth may be stagnant.

Everyone keeps comparing with production. Let's look at the market on that one, every major manufacturer of firearms on the market right now has a product that is "tailor made" to production division (XDM 5.25, M&P 9 pro, Glock 34, FNx 9L ... etc.), but when we start looking at the market for revolvers you have the 686, 627 and 625 (I know there are others in minor six , but for the most part you get my point ... please stay on topic). Is that because they don't want defensive use revolvers to sell, of course not, but where the failing is, is to attract enough "market" to bring the next cool thing in to the "boring old wheel-gun". Why not try to encourage manufacturers to make something gamey for sport-shooters not just "revolver guys", the TRR8 kinda falls into that "cool factor", but it's not legal for USPSA revo division atm. Having a 686 factory gun cut for moons would be kinda cool too, or a Rhino cut for moon clips as it comes .

I'm seeing this as a chicken and egg thing for the manufacturers as well, but cutting guns from the factory for moons or re-introducting the 646 (or some competitor) might be "easy" to be able to breath some life back into the market.

As I said at the begining I might be way off.

The TRR8 and 627 is currently legal in every USPSA division except SS. FYI

Edited July 3, 2013 by Bosshoss

[bdpaz]

After reading a lot of this, I'm seeing a pattern. Maybe I'm way off, but without getting the manufacturers involved in making whatever choice the BOD comes up with to make it more "attractive", revo division growth may be stagnant.

Everyone keeps comparing with production. Let's look at the market on that one, every major manufacturer of firearms on the market right now has a product that is "tailor made" to production division (XDM 5.25, M&P 9 pro, Glock 34, FNx 9L ... etc.), but when we start looking at the market for revolvers you have the 686, 627 and 625 (I know there are others in minor six , but for the most part you get my point ... please stay on topic). Is that because they don't want defensive use revolvers to sell, of course not, but where the failing is, is to attract enough "market" to bring the next cool thing in to the "boring old wheel-gun". Why not try to encourage manufacturers to make something gamey for sport-shooters not just "revolver guys", the TRR8 kinda falls into that "cool factor", but it's not legal for USPSA revo division atm. Having a 686 factory gun cut for moons would be kinda cool too, or a Rhino cut for moon clips as it comes .

I'm seeing this as a chicken and egg thing for the manufacturers as well, but cutting guns from the factory for moons or re-introducting the 646 (or some competitor) might be "easy" to be able to breath some life back into the market.

As I said at the begining I might be way off.

The TRR8 and 627 is currently legal in every USPSA division except SS. FYI

Legal but useless. They are revolvers, not Production/Open/Limited/L10 guns that just happen to only hold 8 rounds.

[Bosshoss]

After reading a lot of this, I'm seeing a pattern. Maybe I'm way off, but without getting the manufacturers involved in making whatever choice the BOD comes up with to make it more "attractive", revo division growth may be stagnant.

Everyone keeps comparing with production. Let's look at the market on that one, every major manufacturer of firearms on the market right now has a product that is "tailor made" to production division (XDM 5.25, M&P 9 pro, Glock 34, FNx 9L ... etc.), but when we start looking at the market for revolvers you have the 686, 627 and 625 (I know there are others in minor six , but for the most part you get my point ... please stay on topic). Is that because they don't want defensive use revolvers to sell, of course not, but where the failing is, is to attract enough "market" to bring the next cool thing in to the "boring old wheel-gun". Why not try to encourage manufacturers to make something gamey for sport-shooters not just "revolver guys", the TRR8 kinda falls into that "cool factor", but it's not legal for USPSA revo division atm. Having a 686 factory gun cut for moons would be kinda cool too, or a Rhino cut for moon clips as it comes .

I'm seeing this as a chicken and egg thing for the manufacturers as well, but cutting guns from the factory for moons or re-introducting the 646 (or some competitor) might be "easy" to be able to breath some life back into the market.

As I said at the begining I might be way off.

The TRR8 and 627 is currently legal in every USPSA division except SS. FYI

Legal but useless. They are revolvers, not Production/Open/Limited/L10 guns that just happen to only hold 8 rounds.

IMO they are more competitive in production and limited 10 than a 6 shot revolver will be in revolver class if the 8 shot guns are allowed in.

[wheelie]

The TRR8 and 627 is currently legal in every USPSA division except SS. FYI

Legal but useless. They are revolvers, not Production/Open/Limited/L10 guns that just happen to only hold 8 rounds.

Wow.

Lets just outlaw revolvers for USPSA shooting - they're all useless.

Kinda like the underlined post.

How's the trolling?

[bdpaz]

The TRR8 and 627 is currently legal in every USPSA division except SS. FYI

Legal but useless. They are revolvers, not Production/Open/Limited/L10 guns that just happen to only hold 8 rounds.

Wow.

Lets just outlaw revolvers for USPSA shooting - they're all useless.

Kinda like the underlined post.

How's the trolling?

Wow back at you.

I thought we were at last past the point of trying to argue that 8 shot revolvers were a good fit in the other divisions and were discussing the pros and cons of alowing them in revo. How do you figure my stating that 8 shot revos don't work in the other divisions is trolling, or equates to outlawing revolvers in USPSA?