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Revolver Division -- where is the post-Nationals surge?


Carmoney

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Just thinking out loud here.... Instead of scoring all revolvers minor, why not score them all major (provided they make minor PF)? That would include the .38/.357 guns, without penalizing the 625 shooters.

No objection there.... let the guys shooting major 625 ease off on the power factor, and level the playing field for the 686 / 38 spl crew.

This stuff is killing me. Just when I think I've moved on something else gets brought up.....That's been brought up once before and I really like that idea. So how are you going to roll the 8 shot guys into that?

I had misread, I had thought he said score all revolvers as minor.

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When you are the only revolver shooter at at a match, the fun comes from beating people shooting semi autos.

Isn't the whole idea to grow the Revolver? If we make changes and you are still the only one...then the cahnges are meaningless?

Fair enough.

6 shot guns are not fun for most people the way matches are currently set up. several of my friends who shoot USPSA have purchased 8 shot revolvers to come shoot ICORE with me. They could probably be persuaded to use it in USPSA occasionally if there was a better place for them.

-Pat Jones

Pat

I have a blast shooting 6 shot revolver and most of the shooters I know who shoot revolver do it BECAUSE it is fun, I don't care how the stages are set up in fact I prefer they NOT be revolver friendly as I like the challange of breaking down the stage.

As for your friends with 8 shot guns, those guns are already legal in 5 of the 6 divisions in USPSA so why don't they shoot them now?

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Pat

I have a blast shooting 6 shot revolver and most of the shooters I know who shoot revolver do it BECAUSE it is fun, I don't care how the stages are set up in fact I prefer they NOT be revolver friendly as I like the challange of breaking down the stage.

I'm with you Pat. I shoot them because it is fun and I loathe "revolver friendly" stages. One of the reasons I don't shoot the other game any longer. I have shot a few local USPSA matches but I have yet to shoot a major because what is the point? Revo guys don't seem to be eligible to win anything. I will shoot the GA state since it is with a few buddies and there at least five other revo shooters, but like at the NC Sectional, I don't think that there are any at all so I will skip it. No point. Save my $$ for bullets.

And go for it MC. At least the man is trying to get it going.

Steve

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When you are the only revolver shooter at at a match, the fun comes from beating people shooting semi autos. A 6 shot gun scored minor, that's even worse than we have now.

An STI 2011 is a fringe gun too, but the matches are full of them. There will never be a lot of revolver shooters, it's harder then shooting a high capacity gun. Just let us shoot guns where we can hold our own against some of the other shooters. A 686 with speedloaders is not it.

-Pat Jones

Call me shocked, but you really seem to represent an outlier position. You joined USPSA last year, shot a total of 2 matches, none in Revolver, and now you are advocating complete divisional changes? Last match you were 3rd out of 4 in a division with a senior, a super senior, and a guy missing some fingers shooting a baby Glock in 10mm, who won, BTW. Good guys to be sure, but L10 is not a very competitive division here in CO. We have some very accomplished Revo shooters here in CO, just not all make it to any one match at the same time.

Maybe I am off here, but I am more and more thinking USPSA should re-focus on the core values...DVC with autopistols...and let Revo shooters shoot ICORE. I don't want a SASS, a 6, 7, and 8 shot Revo division, heck I'd be happy if Revo and L10 went away. Open, Lim, SS, Prod seems to be fine to me. We don't need to be everything to everyone, but USPSA should be the best it can be for the dedicated core shooters who have supported the sport through the years.

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Mark I just don't get your post.

You give Pat a hard time about being new and wanting changes when you are not even classified in revolver class(what this thread is about after all) and later go on to say you would be happy if revolver class just went away. WOW that would be a change and the idea was from someone who doesn't even shoot a revolver. Really? that seems like input that will help the ones that ACTUALLY DO shoot revolvers :rolleyes:

As for the core values...DVC with autopistols. Well I'm no history major but I'm sure this sport was founded and started out as a 1911 AND revolver game. Even the Browning Hi-Power had trouble getting excepted in the sport at first. It wasn't based on plastic guns or hi-cap gun or scoped and comped guns. Just single stack 1911's AND revolver's.

Revolver shooters are looking for ways to help their division grow larger, why is that a problem for someone who doesn't even shoot revolver?

We are all in this together and I would support you if you wanted changes in the division you shoot. :cheers:

Edited by Bosshoss
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I think the only way Revolver would pick up level I & II participation are as follows:

1) More large level II matches as the MCC, would start creating buzz if the prizes are there. One would have to run these matches as not for profit, might even lose money, as you would have to have something substantial in prizes not just trophies.

2) A few successful Revolver only Nationals and then, only then, switch it over to an awarded Slots match the same as all of the others are. Including a price break if you "earn" a Slot. This is probably the only thing that will actually increase participation. Being done too quickly could dampen the attendance though.

Other than these things I seriously doubt if any equipment/rule change will have any net effect. Until the Division has a draw, it will limp along.

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I said this before. The problem that revolver has is match recognition. If we are going to change rules then lets change them to recognize all of the smaller divisions. It is frustrating to prepare for a match and not have your division or class recognized. A C class L-10 shooter and a D class revolver shooter both prepare as well as they can to go to an Area match, but don't have a chance of earning a slot to Nationals. The division winner is the only shooter who gets recognition. This a moot point if we have stand alone Nationals from now on, but if not change the rules to give every class in every division a chance to earn recognition and slots. Right now we only have revolver addicts competing at bigger matches. In my opinion, if you allow fill-in-the-blank equipment change, but return to combined nationals then you will have, at best, the same shooters with different equipment.

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Flex,

Phil told us a few months ago that if we allow 8 shot revos he will be able to fill a 300 slot revo nationals. He said the measure of success is how many at nationals. While I agree it doesn't matter how many shoot at your local level one match you need a fair number of shooters at the area matches. There are a number of guys that will shoot another division if they have the opportunity. I don't think anything can be done to change that unless you attract revo only shooters from other games or get people wanting to shoot their revolvers over their semiautos. Its going to take input from the people that shoot revolver but choose other division to tell you what it would take to get them to shoot the larger matches with their wheel guns.

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Mark I just don't get your post.

You give Pat a hard time about being new and wanting changes when you are not even classified in revolver class(what this thread is about after all) and later go on to say you would be happy if revolver class just went away. WOW that would be a change and the idea was from someone who doesn't even shoot a revolver. Really? that seems like input that will help the ones that ACTUALLY DO shoot revolvers :rolleyes:

As for the core values...DVC with autopistols. Well I'm no history major but I'm sure this sport was founded and started out as a 1911 AND revolver game. Even the Browning Hi-Power had trouble getting excepted in the sport at first. It wasn't based on plastic guns or hi-cap gun or scoped and comped guns. Just single stack 1911's AND revolver's.

Revolver shooters are looking for ways to help their division grow larger, why is that a problem for someone who doesn't even shoot revolver?

We are all in this together and I would support you if you wanted changes in the division you shoot. :cheers:

Hmm, way back when I joined IPSC (before USPSA existed), I found this very helpful guy (Mike Oberman) who taught me the ropes of the game, and I was using a...wait for it...6 shot revolver. That was 1991. There were no small number of people who told me the Revolver was not appropriate for the game and I should get something else, so I did. Seems, in that same year, ICORE was founded...to get Revolvers OUT of the IPSC arms race. In 1996, IDPA was founded the get defense suitable guns and gear OUT of the arms race. Yeah, I started the 3rd IDPA club with Tom Judd and Michael Bane here in CO, and I shot...wait for it...1911s and Revolvers. USPSA still holds an enviable position as the sport where the best pistol shooters play.

As for all being in this together...I think I qualify to some degree. I have two shooting sports I prefer, but I have started 3 new clubs in shooting sports I don't even shoot in the last 12 months. I am the MD for the Ruger Rimfire Worlds match...because it is important for all shooting sports.

I have plenty of Revolvers and have shot them in multiple disciplines with enjoyment. I even have some Revolvers that are 350+ PF and some sub 100 PF, and .22s autos as well. I am not begging for a USPSA division to shoot these in because they are not well suited to the game of USPSA. The vast majority of USPSA members agree and that is also why Revo division is so small.

Did USPSA screw up when the ICORE folks left to start a more Revo friendly sport? Maybe, but USPSA can not serve the current membership well, and grow, when the fringe groups are demanding equal status. We know how that works out... USPSA will never be all things to all shooters and watering down the concentration of shooters so a few can shot Revos, or .22s, or flintlocks and feel good about it will NOT help the mass of the members nor the organization as a whole.

The current BOD and president are doing a great job juggling wet cats in the current environment, so I will continue to tell them what I think and trust their leadership to wade through it. To create a "sub division BOD" or whatever Mike called it, to me, is akin to a vote of "no confidence" in the job the BOD is currently doing. They hold elected offices, so vote, and tell them what you think, or even run for office.

I honestly think all trigger time is good time, regardless of the discipline. I just fail to see why we keep trying to shoehorn less compatible platforms into USPSA divisions, especially when there are other sports out there specifically designed FOR those platforms.

Edited by MarkCO
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Mark, dropping the number of division won't help uspsa grow. Turning away a group of shooters because of the gun they bring to the table isn't going to help uspsa. What do your propose next? Production guns go back to idpa? Only allow sti's I. Limited and open? Only allow blonde hair blue eyed athletic type males shoot uspsa? Sou D's about as dumb as what you said doesn't it?

The topic is how to make strengthen the revolver division. So if don't have anything to add to the discussion why don't you go on back to your division and leave us round gunners be.

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Hmm, way back when I joined IPSC (before USPSA existed), I found this very helpful guy (Mike Oberman) who taught me the ropes of the game, and I was using a...wait for it...6 shot revolver. That was 1991. There were no small number of people who told me the Revolver was not appropriate for the game and I should get something else, so I did. Seems, in that same year, ICORE was founded...to get Revolvers OUT of the IPSC arms race. In 1996, IDPA was founded the get defense suitable guns and gear OUT of the arms race. Yeah, I started the 3rd IDPA club with Tom Judd and Michael Bane here in CO, and I shot...wait for it...1911s and Revolvers. USPSA still holds an enviable position as the sport where the best pistol shooters play.

As for all being in this together...I think I qualify to some degree. I have two shooting sports I prefer, but I have started 3 new clubs in shooting sports I don't even shoot in the last 12 months. I am the MD for the Ruger Rimfire Worlds match...because it is important for all shooting sports.

I have plenty of Revolvers and have shot them in multiple disciplines with enjoyment. I even have some Revolvers that are 350+ PF and some sub 100 PF, and .22s autos as well. I am not begging for a USPSA division to shoot these in because they are not well suited to the game of USPSA. The vast majority of USPSA members agree and that is also why Revo division is so small.

Did USPSA screw up when the ICORE folks left to start a more Revo friendly sport? Maybe, but USPSA can not serve the current membership well, and grow, when the fringe groups are demanding equal status. We know how that works out... USPSA will never be all things to all shooters and watering down the concentration of shooters so a few can shot Revos, or .22s, or flintlocks and feel good about it will NOT help the mass of the members nor the organization as a whole.

Want to talk about fringe groups? If USPSA invested even half the effort into Revolver that it puts into promoting this game to women and juniors, the division would be flourishing nicely. I'm perfectly fine with female and junior shooters (including my own son and daughter, both former junior competitors), but they get grossly disproportionate coverage and attention from the organization.

The current BOD and president are doing a great job juggling wet cats in the current environment, so I will continue to tell them what I think and trust their leadership to wade through it. To create a "sub division BOD" or whatever Mike called it, to me, is akin to a vote of "no confidence" in the job the BOD is currently doing. They hold elected offices, so vote, and tell them what you think, or even run for office.

The "no confidence" comment completely misrepresents my point of view--and does so very unfairly. I have plenty of confidence in our current BOD, and I feel extremely well represented by my Section Coordinator, my Area Director, and our organizational President. My idea was to find people who could champion the cause of the various divisions, with real support from USPSA, under the direction of the BOD. Go back and read my post again.

I honestly think all trigger time is good time, regardless of the discipline. I just fail to see why we keep trying to shoehorn less compatible platforms into USPSA divisions, especially when there are other sports out there specifically designed FOR those platforms.

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Flex,

Phil told us a few months ago that if we allow 8 shot revos he will be able to fill a 300 slot revo nationals.

That would be location specific right? If the revo nats are in rio salado, st george, or desert sportsman, something that makes travel for southwest region icore crew easy, that might actually be true.

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Mark, dropping the number of division won't help uspsa grow. Turning away a group of shooters because of the gun they bring to the table isn't going to help uspsa. What do your propose next? Production guns go back to idpa? Only allow sti's I. Limited and open? Only allow blonde hair blue eyed athletic type males shoot uspsa? Sou D's about as dumb as what you said doesn't it?

The topic is how to make strengthen the revolver division. So if don't have anything to add to the discussion why don't you go on back to your division and leave us round gunners be.

To answer your questions...Production has proven successful, so no reason to mess with it. 2013 is the first year for a stand alone Production Nationals, and it looks like it will be full at 400 shooters.

The attitude expressed in your second paragraph is EXACTLY why Revolver WON'T grow. That ICORE grew out of USPSA as a "take my ball and go play over here" approach will not work within USPSA. For all you know I may just be a closet Revolver fan trying to get you to focus on methods that might work instead of subsidizing a faltering division with the proceeds from the ones that ARE successful.

Mike, I agree that the promotion of women and juniors uses resources and effort. However, even though it does not benefit the major demographic of USPSA, it does appear to be working and that is needed for the long term health of USPSA. Therefore most of the membership is for that promotion. Conversely, most of the membership does not appear to be in support of using the same level of resources to promote the Revolver divsion. Likely because there is no long term overall benefit to USPSA that has ever been successfully articulated for the promotion of Revolver.

I think there are some suggestions in this thread with merit as to how Revolver can grow, but...in order to get general acceptance by the members, it is going to have to be something that is beneficial to the entire organization without detrimental effects to the 4 dominant divisions. Short answer...if you want Revolver to grow in USPSA, someone is going to have to come up with a strategy that will increase total participation in USPSA as a result and add to its overall health.

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We have lots of opinions in this thread on what to do (or not do) to Revolver but very few addressing the original question. If Revo is good as-is and the stand alone nationals was going to rejuvenate it, why hasn't participation increased?

People may not change their plans for major matches on short notice but how many of those who went to Revo Nationals came home and were fired up to shoot revo in their local matches? I didn't go but of those from Rio Salado who went, most don't normally shoot Revo in USPSA. Everyone said it was a great match but all came back and resumed shooting their 8 shot guns in L10 or shooting semi autos in other divisions. It didn't inspire anyone to shoot 6 shot revolver in our monthly matches. And those shooting as L10 aren't satisfied with that option and want to be scored as revolver shooters.

I don't see any way to keep this from becoming adversarial, pitting the few current revolver shooters wanting to keep things as they are against the maybe-a-few-more who want to allow 8 shot minor. Personally, I hope that 8 shot minor will be allowed provisionally but if it isn't I have a backup plan. I am not interested in Nationals and other major matches and just want to make shooting revo fun for me and to increase revo participation at my local level. I plan to manually get a list at each match of everyone shooting a revolver in another division and then recalculate the scores with them in Revo and publish unofficial results. I think we have enough revolver shooters here at Rio to generate interest in this and increase revo visibility and possibly attract some revo rookies.

It is a fair amount of work to refigure the results and I'm still looking for the best way to do it, so a provisional 8 shot minor ruling would make it much easier, but either way we'll be testing 8 shot minor at Rio!

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Mark I just don't get your post.

You give Pat a hard time about being new and wanting changes when you are not even classified in revolver class(what this thread is about after all) and later go on to say you would be happy if revolver class just went away. WOW that would be a change and the idea was from someone who doesn't even shoot a revolver. Really? that seems like input that will help the ones that ACTUALLY DO shoot revolvers :rolleyes:

As for the core values...DVC with autopistols. Well I'm no history major but I'm sure this sport was founded and started out as a 1911 AND revolver game. Even the Browning Hi-Power had trouble getting excepted in the sport at first. It wasn't based on plastic guns or hi-cap gun or scoped and comped guns. Just single stack 1911's AND revolver's.

Revolver shooters are looking for ways to help their division grow larger, why is that a problem for someone who doesn't even shoot revolver?

We are all in this together and I would support you if you wanted changes in the division you shoot. :cheers:

Hmm, way back when I joined IPSC (before USPSA existed), I found this very helpful guy (Mike Oberman) who taught me the ropes of the game, and I was using a...wait for it...6 shot revolver. That was 1991. There were no small number of people who told me the Revolver was not appropriate for the game and I should get something else, so I did. Seems, in that same year, ICORE was founded...to get Revolvers OUT of the IPSC arms race. In 1996, IDPA was founded the get defense suitable guns and gear OUT of the arms race. Yeah, I started the 3rd IDPA club with Tom Judd and Michael Bane here in CO, and I shot...wait for it...1911s and Revolvers. USPSA still holds an enviable position as the sport where the best pistol shooters play.

As for all being in this together...I think I qualify to some degree. I have two shooting sports I prefer, but I have started 3 new clubs in shooting sports I don't even shoot in the last 12 months. I am the MD for the Ruger Rimfire Worlds match...because it is important for all shooting sports.

You may qualify but what make you more qualified than anyone else here? Our opinion doesn't count?

I have plenty of Revolvers and have shot them in multiple disciplines with enjoyment. I even have some Revolvers that are 350+ PF and some sub 100 PF, and .22s autos as well. I am not begging for a USPSA division to shoot these in because they are not well suited to the game of USPSA. The vast majority of USPSA members agree and that is also why Revo division is so small.

I never said that you don't own any revolvers I said that you don't shoot revolvers in USPSA and you don't!!!!

Now you are speaking for a "vast majority" of USPSA members? I have never met a USPSA member with your attitude before. I have always felt welcome no matter what I was shooting.

I always thought Revolver division was small because it was harder. But what do I know.

Did USPSA screw up when the ICORE folks left to start a more Revo friendly sport? Maybe, but USPSA can not serve the current membership well, and grow, when the fringe groups are demanding equal status. We know how that works out... USPSA will never be all things to all shooters and watering down the concentration of shooters so a few can shot Revos, or .22s, or flintlocks and feel good about it will NOT help the mass of the members nor the organization as a whole.

The current BOD and president are doing a great job juggling wet cats in the current environment, so I will continue to tell them what I think and trust their leadership to wade through it. To create a "sub division BOD" or whatever Mike called it, to me, is akin to a vote of "no confidence" in the job the BOD is currently doing. They hold elected offices, so vote, and tell them what you think, or even run for office.

" you will continue to tell them what you think" Good for you but I and the rest of the revolver shooters will continue to tell them what we think as you certainaly don't speak for me.

I honestly think all trigger time is good time, regardless of the discipline. I just fail to see why we keep trying to shoehorn less compatible platforms into USPSA divisions, especially when there are other sports out there specifically designed FOR those platforms.

There are other sports out there for revolver but not as available as USPSA, I have 3 USPSA clubs within 90 minutes of me and 1 ICORE club that has had 2 shoots in the last 2 years.

Turning away shooters with money willing to join USPSA and support the local clubs doesn't seem like it is for the "greater good" of the sport.

Mark, dropping the number of division won't help uspsa grow. Turning away a group of shooters because of the gun they bring to the table isn't going to help uspsa. What do your propose next? Production guns go back to idpa? Only allow sti's I. Limited and open? Only allow blonde hair blue eyed athletic type males shoot uspsa? Sou D's about as dumb as what you said doesn't it?

The topic is how to make strengthen the revolver division. So if don't have anything to add to the discussion why don't you go on back to your division and leave us round gunners be.

To answer your questions...Production has proven successful, so no reason to mess with it. 2013 is the first year for a stand alone Production Nationals, and it looks like it will be full at 400 shooters.

I sure you know the revolver nationals also filled up.

The attitude expressed in your second paragraph is EXACTLY why Revolver WON'T grow. That ICORE grew out of USPSA as a "take my ball and go play over here" approach will not work within USPSA. For all you know I may just be a closet Revolver fan trying to get you to focus on methods that might work instead of subsidizing a faltering division with the proceeds from the ones that ARE successful.

OK first you started in on Pat and now Chris. Well let me tell YOU something I know and shoot with Chris and he is like most of us on this thread A REVOLVER SHOOTER and as passionate about it as anyone.

A few paragraphs ago you were saying that revolver division should be done away with and now you are trying to save us.

This is a thread on a forum that is based on revolver class in USPSA and getting attendance up and you have 1 classifier on record and are not even classified so while I value your suggestions don't pretend to speak for the shooters that DO SHOOT REVOLVER division in USPSA.

Personally I hope you stay in that closet.

Mike, I agree that the promotion of women and juniors uses resources and effort. However, even though it does not benefit the major demographic of USPSA, it does appear to be working and that is needed for the long term health of USPSA. Therefore most of the membership is for that promotion. Conversely, most of the membership does not appear to be in support of using the same level of resources to promote the Revolver divsion. Likely because there is no long term overall benefit to USPSA that has ever been successfully articulated for the promotion of Revolver.

Again your speaking for "most of the membership"!!!!!

What resources are being devoted to revolver? The nationals was tagged on to the end of another nationals and didn't take near as much resources to put on as a stand alone nationals like the production nationals. Speaking of your production class is seems a lot of the resources of USPSA goes to that class. Half the rule book is devoted to production and all the new guns and equipment must be approved, etc. Production is a very popular class and I don't have any problem with all that. But I just don't see where revolver division is wasting any of your USPSA resources.

I think there are some suggestions in this thread with merit as to how Revolver can grow, but...in order to get general acceptance by the members, it is going to have to be something that is beneficial to the entire organization without detrimental effects to the 4 dominant divisions. Short answer...if you want Revolver to grow in USPSA, someone is going to have to come up with a strategy that will increase total participation in USPSA as a result and add to its overall health.

I agree 1000%

What is good for USPSA is good for it's members in all divisions including revolver.

Now if some member would quit trying to kill the divisions off that they don't shoot in we might get somewhere. :cheers:

Edited by Bosshoss
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Knock off the personal stuff guys. - Admin.

Nice to see Flex getting on somebody other than me! The Nationals thing IS a success. It will be as long as it's stand alone regardless of where it's held. That's not the point, but it shows people will shoot the things. Just not instead of some other division or at another organization. Where we need to see activity is at the local level. The Nationals matter less than the club participation. Anything that gets shooters into that division, whether they come from IDPA, ICORE or whatever makes no difference. Mission count will be the most important way of measuring the success of a division. BTW, the revo nationals were awesome, except for that Miculek guy, screw him......

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Ok Flex, here's some thoughts, and understand, these are highlights only and I'm leaving out much of the foundational justification.

--Production and new shooters, in my opinion, arose from low cost of equipment and ammo cost.

-- to enter Revo as it is now, a .45 is required, yes, I know the exceptions, 45 isn't the most economical choice for new shooters nor is 38/357, however, it not that hard or extreme to make a 627 shoot 9mm, 38 super, 38/357 affectively. Additionally, they get all their brass back regardless of caliber, regardless of reloader or not, it's more cost effective and more likely to encourage 9mm and 38 super shooters to shoot Auto and Revo divisions. This gives better reason for the cost minded shooter over the long term.

I know we argued the point of competitive advantage between 6 major and 8 minor for years, and some trials have mixed results, but as it is, the .45acp is dying in auto division, and if one gun is going to be preferred moving forward in development and time, its more likely to be one that can shoot the economical ammo. If the class is already a one caliber and gun field why not consider giving the newer more available gun the nod. I believe most of already committed Revo shooters most likely have a 627, I said most not all, clearly understanding it is personal opinion and assumption so as time passes the phase in of the 627 would be an easier transition. BTW, I still think the 6 shoot major would still be competitive until natural transition occurs. If your a GM-D with a 6 shooter wouldn't you still be one with an 8 shooter, so as transition occurs competitiveness is still there. And equal.

8 shot gun plays better on the course at hand, mostly USPSA, mostly sharing the course as subordinate to autos, and courses set up to their world of 6 to 8 round arrays. More appealing to a new to competition shooter or crossover division shooter.

As far as matches go, really liked the open call of the nationals but wonder if a Revo only, slots by class would help, say 10-15 slots by class for top prizes ie gun/money,high value awards, for each class, not just the top GM-M. Still could allow others to shoot match based on full capacity just not as much of prize table awarded to unclassified or non slot awardees.

As for Markco, this is division only input, the arguments by all here don't affect any other divisions or how USPSA treats or expends effort on any other division, in fact, it is how to help revolver division play better within the construct of the organizations divisional and course design. I'm sure it's interesting to read from other divisions.

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Okay... Another hare-brained thought... Bear with me, I just got off of the motorcycle, I'm a little punchy. LOL

What if we can make revolver a "one shot per target" division? Set a minimum power factor, and every shot scores major X 2, but only one hit per target is scored. This keeps wheel guns from getting hosed by 8-shot arrays. I guess we would still be hosed by 12- shot arrays, but so would production and SS shooters, so you don't see 12-shot arrays very often.

I think this would get shooters more than allowing 8-shot guns, and this way nobody's gun is obsolete overnight.

This is similar to what multigun does for "heavy metal" divisions, and it seems to work.

Again, I'm just spitballing here. Carry on.

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I've been reading this topic top to bottom. It's a great conversion.

I find here in MN after the Rev Nat's, only one guy is still shooting Revolver on a regular basis.

I have found that every one is now shooting whatever division they are vying for on the local level. Maybe to get a cheep slot in next years Nationals maybe not.

The IDPA people are not crossing over to shoot revolver, they are crossing for production. And ICORE does not exist in MN.

So here it is, without the Stand alone Rev Nat's, MN will never have a big Mission count. I think it is the same in every Area of USPSA. While we have this stand alone Nationals there will be an increase in participation just before the match, than that participation will die off. That is not a bad thing!

As I have said before in other topics, we need to expand the division. We need 8 round minor. We need Open 8 and 6 round major. We need to make it happen.

And

It's not all about the prize table, at least not for me, it's about the competition against the best Shooters in the world with this firearm. ---------I love it!

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"What if we can make revolver a "one shot per target" division? Set a minimum power factor, and every shot scores major X 2, but only one hit per target is scored. This keeps wheel guns from getting hosed by 8-shot arrays. I guess we would still be hosed by 12- shot arrays, but so would production and SS shooters, so you don't see 12-shot arrays very often.

I think this would get shooters more than allowing 8-shot guns, and this way nobody's gun is obsolete overnight.
This is similar to what multigun does for "heavy metal" divisions, and it seems to work."

We're not trying to reinvent the game here.

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I am to the point that it appears that the Powers to be have a plan and the measurement of the success of a division is if they can fill a stand alone Major match. Well it is not the way I would meassure it, but so beit. To the ones in charge, do or do not. I will shoot which ever gun (spelled Revo) I want or allowed to. If there are to be only stand alone Nationals it will not change Revo particpation at local, Area, and Sectional levels. I and a couple of friends are making the larger matches to support other friends of the wheel. Just hope there is at least recognition for a match well shot. I'll try to keep my mouth shut now (optimum word is "Try") Roger Davis

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Having a stand-alone Nationals may be a good way to increase participation in Revolver by shooters that are not currently shooting USPSA. If there was a big Revolver-only Nationals, a huge event with maybe 300-400 slots, big-name sponsorship, lots of guns on the prize table then it may encourage shooters from other sports to give it a try.

If they are not currently USPSA members then they get a free membership with their match application fee, they go to the big match with the best shooters in the country, maybe some side matches going on as well. If we need to open up a Minor-8 for wider appeal then lets do that, it works in Single-Stack.

Those that compete in the 'big show' from outside the sport will now have membership in USPSA and might be tempted to try some local matches in their area thereby growing the sport. The goal is to get new members without alienating the members we already have, not just to move members from one division to the next.

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I hope you all don't mind me sneeking in here and giving an opinion on what I have observed over the last thirty-something years of competion shooting. I'll start by saying that I'm not a member of the USPSA and the only classification I held was in SS. My revo shooting has been limited to local matches. (So no need to do a background check on me)

The title of this thread is where is the post national revolver bump. Unfortunately that isn't how things seem to work. In reality, if you checked, the bump was probably pre nationals. Those that shot the revo nationals that weren't dedicated rev shooters like Carmony or Bubber or several others posting in this thread probably shot their rotating guns in several matches before the nationals to get ready for that match. They went back to their auto once the nationals were over. The solution therefore is more major rev only matches. Not the elimination of divisions.

To paraphrase a line from economics, rising water lifts all boats. The more shooters we can get into the sport, the more we will have in all divisions.

Hope you don't mind my $.02.

Dwight

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I am going to ramble a bit hopefully some of it contributes to the conversation. I started shooting USPSA spring of 2005, Got into revolver summer of 2006. What interesting me in revolver was watching another more experience shoot shooting revolver. He help me a lot in my general skills and peaked my interest in Revolver division. I started with a S&W 610 I got for a steal from Gander Mountain ($520 6.5" barrel, firing pin on the hammer, no "-" in the model number :goof: ) I picked up a 5" 625 late in 2011 (from the shooter that got me into it). I am a solid B class shooter that probably is not shooting enough to get to A class anytime soon.

In those years I have worked hard to get more revolver shooter to shoot our local club matches. I offer to let friends shoot my revolvers to try Revolver division when I can. Special classifier matches seem to be especial good matches to swap equipment and try new things. I am classified in all division and really only own Production, L-10 and Revolver equipment.

It just seems too many people get lured away from or never try revolver because of capacity and speed. Revolver division takes a little more time and effort and that seem to only appeal to certain shooters. My local club usually has 3-4 revolver shooters each match this year. The most we regular had was maybe 5-6 shooter, a few years ago.

I just think the percentage of shooters that Revolver division appeals to is always going to be small compared to others. Revolvers are old technology, semi-auto are still evolving and and getting better. The mature revolver technology is not changing much if at all and that does not appeal to the large majority of equipment/gadget obsess USPSA shooters.

I would love to see 8-shot minor in revolver division. Even before I read the threads saying this might be a possibility in the near future I have been shopping for a 627. Even if the 8-shot minor does not happen I was going to set up a 627 and shoot it in Production just to get more double action trigger time. (anyone want to trade a 627 for an XD-45ACP?)

IMHO Revolver friendly stages as most define it (arrays of 6) in reality just makes the stage de facto Virginia count for the revolver guys. Please don't make too many stage Revolver friendly. I don't mind the occasional standing reload and I am more than willing to dump a live round or two on the ground if it makes for an interesting and faster solution to a stage.

One last thing, I know the days of shoot what you brought and score it all together is long past but that capability is still in the scoring software. My local club still post the aggregate scores on our website. I love looking through the aggregate score and see how I stack up against the big stick bottom feeder guys shooting my Limited-6 round gun.

Not sure much of that directly helps increasing revolver participation other than maybe sharing equipment and allowing the 7 & 8-shot revolvers in. But maybe that is what is need. Grass roots club level guys badgering their friends to try the noble round gun. Most are not going to like revolver but a few will.

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I think people just don't want to shoot revolver. lol

When I think about the two clubs I shoot at (mostly the same people), I can easily think of 10 people (there's probably a bunch more) who have 625's and the gear to shoot in a USPSA match. They just don't. They don't want to. Maybe once a year they will shoot a match. Maybe.

We're planning an ICOR style club match... We're not expecting much of a turnout. The feedback we're getting is its just too much hassle for most folks. Too much reloading, they want 6 shot arrays, low round counts. They don't seem to want to do it, other than as an occasional novelty.

So if people who already have the gear don't want to shoot revolver, what hope is there? What does it need to be? I don't/can't shoot "big matches" so I don't really happens there. In the club matches I don really care if anyone else shoots revolver, I'm shooting against myself, I only use the auto shooters as a measure to gauge improvement. I guess I'm the "big revolver shooter" in my club, at least that's what everyone else says. I haven't shot it yet this year, and only twice last year. That's just the way I am, run hot and cold with things.

I often wonder about the goal of "growing revolver"', is it because people just want more people to beat? Because they want to win prizes? Like I've said in the past on this subject, you need to remember that those people shooting section matches, area matches and the nationals are the minority in the sport. (People on this website are too some degree for that matter)

Theoretically, if I had to buy a 627 to shoot revolver, I wouldn't bother at this point.

Edited by cas
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