Revolver Division -- where is the post-Nationals surge?

[TGO]

After reading a lot of this, I'm seeing a pattern. Maybe I'm way off, but without getting the manufacturers involved in making whatever choice the BOD comes up with to make it more "attractive", revo division growth may be stagnant.

Everyone keeps comparing with production. Let's look at the market on that one, every major manufacturer of firearms on the market right now has a product that is "tailor made" to production division (XDM 5.25, M&P 9 pro, Glock 34, FNx 9L ... etc.), but when we start looking at the market for revolvers you have the 686, 627 and 625 (I know there are others in minor six , but for the most part you get my point ... please stay on topic). Is that because they don't want defensive use revolvers to sell, of course not, but where the failing is, is to attract enough "market" to bring the next cool thing in to the "boring old wheel-gun". Why not try to encourage manufacturers to make something gamey for sport-shooters not just "revolver guys", the TRR8 kinda falls into that "cool factor", but it's not legal for USPSA revo division atm. Having a 686 factory gun cut for moons would be kinda cool too, or a Rhino cut for moon clips as it comes .

I'm seeing this as a chicken and egg thing for the manufacturers as well, but cutting guns from the factory for moons or re-introducting the 646 (or some competitor) might be "easy" to be able to breath some life back into the market.

As I said at the begining I might be way off.

The TRR8 and 627 is currently legal in every USPSA division except SS. FYI

Legal but useless. They are revolvers, not Production/Open/Limited/L10 guns that just happen to only hold 8 rounds.

IMO they are more competitive in production and limited 10 than a 6 shot revolver will be in revolver class if the 8 shot guns are allowed in.

Our testing would show that last statement to be totally untrue! We have proven over and over in our outlaw matches that an 8 shot minor revolver while competitive with 6 shot major revolvers scored no where near in the overalls to the L10 and Prod guns. Not even close. We can argue all day about other things but ANY revolver is not competitive with the other division. It's like saying a production gun would be more competitive in open than L10. It just isn't!

Again this isn't opinion but fact based on the results of our extensive testing. I'm sure when Brad gets into this more he could give you the data, but I never came close to being competitive with the other divisions in any of the matches we ran. Most of the times my 8 shot gun beat my 6 shot gun, but it was never more than a few points.

[TGO]

The TRR8 and 627 is currently legal in every USPSA division except SS. FYI

Legal but useless. They are revolvers, not Production/Open/Limited/L10 guns that just happen to only hold 8 rounds.

Wow.

Lets just outlaw revolvers for USPSA shooting - they're all useless.

Kinda like the underlined post.

How's the trolling?

Do you understand what was being said? Good Lord, no one is saying anything like that except you. Brad shoots revo all the time. He want's to shoot an 8 shot. He's just tired of seeing posts about where to put revo's instead of revolver division. If there there's trolling happening here, it's certainly not by Brad. When he says useless, it's because they are. under current rules they are inferior to the major 6 shooters. To him that means useless. You can't shoot a 7th shot without getting booted out of the division. It's not a penalty, but a reclassification, you understand that right?

[TGO]

Ok, for me this has run it's course. Time to load ammo or go shoot. I have notified my AD and the President knows very well my wishes on this. I'm out. Ya'all have fun, I gotta go!! Brad, I still love ya!

[motosapiens]

i don't know jack, and I don't even own a revolver, but imho, if you want to make revolver significantly more popular, you have to attract people like me. You can only do that by having revolver-only matches. I think revolver-only nationals are a terrific step in the right direction. But not enough of a step to make me buy a revolver..... yet....

Look at the glock matches? I know several people whose only reason for owning a crappy plastic gun is to shoot 1 or 2 of those matches a year.

[bdpaz]

Ok, for me this has run it's course. Time to load ammo or go shoot. I have notified my AD and the President knows very well my wishes on this. I'm out. Ya'all have fun, I gotta go!! Brad, I still love ya!

See what happens when you are mean to me - my dad will step in. Hmm, except that I'm older than even he is, so I'm not sure how that works. But regardless, TGO is right that for those in on these threads from the beginnings this has run its course and we're just repeating what has been said.

The only thing I will add is that, specifically excluding Bosshoss who all along has clearly stated legitimate concerns, there have been a few tin-foil hatish comments speculating on the "real reason" for wanting 8 shots or claiming that the 8 shot idea is being pushed by a cabal (Hah! One for the 6 shot shot crowd to look up!) for the benefit of a few. That simply isn't true. TGO is TGO, I'm a random "support level" shooter who thinks USPSA revo is incredibly tedious with a 6 shooter and a lot of fun with an 8 shooter (and has actually tried it with both). We and others, some who have posted here and some who haven't, have different levels of experience and different reasons for wanting 8 shot revo. But the common theme is that we all think it will improve revo division. I'm more involved than some of our other Rio Salado revolver people simply because I wanted to refigure local results unofficially showing everyone with a revolver as a Revo shooter and then I was suckered into helping with the Outlaw matches .

i don't know jack, and I don't even own a revolver, but imho, if you want to make revolver significantly more popular, you have to attract people like me. You can only do that by having revolver-only matches. I think revolver-only nationals are a terrific step in the right direction. But not enough of a step to make me buy a revolver..... yet....

Look at the glock matches? I know several people whose only reason for owning a crappy plastic gun is to shoot 1 or 2 of those matches a year.

And here we have a fresh idea. My thought was that more visibility with increased revo participation at club matches would attract

new people to revo but hadn't considered this. The one drawback that comes to mind is that a revolver is more expensive than a Glock so people might not be inclined to buy one for once or twice a year. Maybe revo-only matches with loaner/rental set ups available?

[Carmoney]

i don't know jack, and I don't even own a revolver, but imho, if you want to make revolver significantly more popular, you have to attract people like me. You can only do that by having revolver-only matches. I think revolver-only nationals are a terrific step in the right direction. But not enough of a step to make me buy a revolver..... yet....

Look at the glock matches? I know several people whose only reason for owning a crappy plastic gun is to shoot 1 or 2 of those matches a year.

And here we have a fresh idea. My thought was that more visibility with increased revo participation at club matches would attract

new people to revo but hadn't considered this. The one drawback that comes to mind is that a revolver is more expensive than a Glock so people might not be inclined to buy one for once or twice a year. Maybe revo-only matches with loaner/rental set ups available?

From the "where is the post-National surge?" thread -- post #24 from June 19: USPSA could promote and support a series of Revolver-only major matches throughout the year, perhaps similar to Area Championships, which would lead up to the culmination of a stand-alone National Championship match in November.

A few years back, I organized and ran several Revo-only "major" USPSA matches in Iowa, including what became the largest USPSA Revolver event in history, at that time. Sam Keen easily eclipsed my record at his wonderful Memphis Charity matches over the past few years. All of that was done with little or no support from the organization. But now we have a new president, and he arranged for Revolver Division to have its own National Championship, and it set a new record for participation--which is great. I also noticed Jerry Miculek on the cover of the latest Front Sight, and the article featuring the match, and that is great also. None of that occurred at any significant cost to USPSA. It just goes to show what can be done with a bit of imagination, creative effort, and willingness to try new things.

[COF]

It just goes to show what can be done with a bit of imagination, creative effort, and willingness to try new things.

Indeed.

[Blueridge]

For me much of this has become a political debate. Points of view supported by "facts" of various levels of strength. Whatever changes come I will continue to compete in revolver division. Ideas that I have read seem interesting, but seeing them in practice will determine what the next step will be.

Until this year the biggest hurdle for me shooting revolver division was that earning a slot to nationals was so difficult. I understand that there is a waiting list, but I prefer to know for sure if I have a slot to compete. Planning a trip to the location of where nationals will be on the chance of getting in is just not for me. One of the reasons I competed in the revolver nationals this year was that it might not be open to everyone next year, and this might be the one chance that I have to compete in it. There is no gaurantee that there will be another stand alone revolver nationals, and no guarantee that slots will be first come first serve.

I juggle time I have available between competitive olympic style fencing (foil and epee) and shooting sports. I have fortunately qualified to, and competed in, the US Summer Nationals 13 out of 14 times since 2000. I like to compete and take the opportunities that I have to do that. Be it shooting sports or fencing, I compete as much as I can. Rules and equipment parameters will change, but that won't stop me from competing and having an enjoyable time.

[pskys2]

For me much of this has become a political debate. Points of view supported by "facts" of various levels of strength. Whatever changes come I will continue to compete in revolver division. Ideas that I have read seem interesting, but seeing them in practice will determine what the next step will be.

Until this year the biggest hurdle for me shooting revolver division was that earning a slot to nationals was so difficult. I understand that there is a waiting list, but I prefer to know for sure if I have a slot to compete. Planning a trip to the location of where nationals will be on the chance of getting in is just not for me. One of the reasons I competed in the revolver nationals this year was that it might not be open to everyone next year, and this might be the one chance that I have to compete in it. There is no gaurantee that there will be another stand alone revolver nationals, and no guarantee that slots will be first come first serve.

I juggle time I have available between competitive olympic style fencing (foil and epee) and shooting sports. I have fortunately qualified to, and competed in, the US Summer Nationals 13 out of 14 times since 2000. I like to compete and take the opportunities that I have to do that. Be it shooting sports or fencing, I compete as much as I can. Rules and equipment parameters will change, but that won't stop me from competing and having an enjoyable time.

I believe there will be a Revo Nats next year, I doubt if it will be a Slot Match yet.

If it does become one we will be victims of our own success, and most would be happy with it.

[cas]

...if you want to make revolver significantly more popular...

I'm still fuzzy on that point, the Who and Why?

Why MUST we make it more popular?

Who's pushing that? Guys looking for more people to beat?

Top shooters sore that there's no prize table at the big matches?

S&W sales?

People say the Division is dying. The only way it will die is if USPSA does away with it.

[pskys2]

...if you want to make revolver significantly more popular...

I'm still fuzzy on that point, the Who and Why?

Why MUST we make it more popular?

Who's pushing that? Guys looking for more people to beat?

Top shooters sore that there's no prize table at the big matches?

S&W sales?

People say the Division is dying. The only way it will die is if USPSA does away with it.

But if nobody shows up to shoot in a Division, how long do you think USPSA will carry it on the books.

I'd not expect them to, and I do shoot Revo.

FWIW at the 2012 Area 3, I do believe that Hi C and D in Single Stack won a gun. And I doubt if they were "Top" shooters. But that's the way the game is played. And yes it is a hollow victory to be the only shooter in a Division at a major match or even one with just 5. It's nice to win, but the fun is in competing. And locally what fun is there when there is no competition to push you. I'd just as soon stay home and save the money.

[COF]

How about a change to the recognition rule for Level 3 matches -lowering participation requirements to 5 instead of 10. At the same time make it a requirement to award prizes equally to all divisions. I understand recognition might not be a primary factor for competitors shooting revolver on a regular basis, like Mike and Dave, but it could be incentive to get folks to sign up in the division if they think they've got a chance of winning something. Right now some folks don't shoot revolver at Level 3 matches because there aren't enough shooters to have the division recognized. As a result, the division doesn't get recognized and the prize table for revolver usually sucks.

Before the S**tstorm starts, I realize what I am proposing will reduce the prizes for the the other divisions and bring about comments about them subsidizing Revolver. Seems like right now, the revolver guys are subsidizing the rest of the divisions, especially if there aren't enough shooting to get division recognition.

Seems to me we have a sel-defeating paradigm - shooters don't sign up because the division isn't recognized and the division isn't recognized because there aren't enough shooters. We've got to do something to bring in more revolver shooters

Just the view from my side of the anthill.

[dcloudy777]

I'm not a USPSA rules guru, and I no nothing about the match prize table guidelines... are sponsors allowed to stipulate "where" they want donated prizes to go? Or is all of that mandated by USPSA rules?

[COF]

I can't seem to find anything except the recognition requirement, nothing about prizes in any of the rulebooks.

[revoman]

When I ran matches I would distribute prizes equally through the divisions and reserve the best for the overall winner. But I would make sure to leave a special prize for the last place finisher to recognize them for coming and trying and to make sure that they would return next year. After all it is the middle and lower part of the contestants that actually bring the money into the matches as they number more than the top shooters.

[dcloudy777]

My reasoning is this: If a sponsor put out a gun or other nice prize for high revolver, and announced it ahead of time, I'd be willing to bet you'd have more than one or two revolver shooters.

[pskys2]

How about a change to the recognition rule for Level 3 matches -lowering participation requirements to 5 instead of 10. At the same time make it a requirement to award prizes equally to all divisions. I understand recognition might not be a primary factor for competitors shooting revolver on a regular basis, like Mike and Dave, but it could be incentive to get folks to sign up in the division if they think they've got a chance of winning something. Right now some folks don't shoot revolver at Level 3 matches because there aren't enough shooters to have the division recognized. As a result, the division doesn't get recognized and the prize table for revolver usually sucks.

Before the S**tstorm starts, I realize what I am proposing will reduce the prizes for the the other divisions and bring about comments about them subsidizing Revolver. Seems like right now, the revolver guys are subsidizing the rest of the divisions, especially if there aren't enough shooting to get division recognition.

Seems to me we have a sel-defeating paradigm - shooters don't sign up because the division isn't recognized and the division isn't recognized because there aren't enough shooters. We've got to do something to bring in more revolver shooters

Just the view from my side of the anthill.

I agree with you on the paradigm. And most matches I've gone to actually do their best to keep the prize structure fair among all Divisions. But the bottom 50% don't usually get a lot of choices. Of 5 that's 3? What USPSA came up with to help with that was the Class System and awarding a good prize for winning your Class. That has worked pretty well. But there's that paradigm thing again, you still need a minimum amount of participation in a Class within a Division to award something. If you change the amounts/methods you just can't justify doing it for a specific Division.

The other method is to award prizes by drawing, thereby freeing up competitors to shoot what they want vs what gives them the best rewards. I've not seen it help bring in low participation Divisions though. Probably the best method is a combo of the two and I've both seen and used it in matches I've run. Didn't seem to help a lot though.

[cas]

Again, sorry to keep beating the dead horse, but everyone keeps talking about rules and changes and how they relate to the big matches. I'm sorry but the overwhelming majority of the people who shoot USPSA don't shoot in all these big matches.

My issue there is are we're making changes across the board to make a vocal minority happy?

[revoman]

When I ran matches I would distribute prizes equally through the divisions and reserve the best for the overall winner. But I would make sure to leave a special prize for the last place finisher to recognize them for coming and trying and to make sure that they would return next year. After all it is the middle and lower part of the contestants that actually bring the money into the matches as they number more than the top shooters.

Let me clarify myself as the only matches I ran were ICORE and we only had Limited and Open but I would make sure M, A, B, C and D classes were all treated fairly.

[sperman]

How about a change to the recognition rule for Level 3 matches -lowering participation requirements to 5 instead of 10. At the same time make it a requirement to award prizes equally to all divisions. I understand recognition might not be a primary factor for competitors shooting revolver on a regular basis, like Mike and Dave, but it could be incentive to get folks to sign up in the division if they think they've got a chance of winning something. Right now some folks don't shoot revolver at Level 3 matches because there aren't enough shooters to have the division recognized. As a result, the division doesn't get recognized and the prize table for revolver usually sucks.

Before the S**tstorm starts, I realize what I am proposing will reduce the prizes for the the other divisions and bring about comments about them subsidizing Revolver. Seems like right now, the revolver guys are subsidizing the rest of the divisions, especially if there aren't enough shooting to get division recognition.

Seems to me we have a sel-defeating paradigm - shooters don't sign up because the division isn't recognized and the division isn't recognized because there aren't enough shooters. We've got to do something to bring in more revolver shooters

Just the view from my side of the anthill.

Comments like this alienate the non-revolver shooters. Why should a division that brings in 4% of the revenue for a match get 20% of the prizes? I'm all for making changes to the division that will help it grow and thrive, but if the revolver division needs a welfare program, maybe it should just go away.

For all the shooters that say there should be more revolver only matches, go out and make it happen. Sam did. Mike did. How many other revo shooters have put in the extra effort?

[almostold]

"My issue there is are we're making changes across the board to make a vocal minority happy?"

You know I'm not too vocal, more laid back and quiet and nope not a minority - just a straight white guy... but I'm very 'willing to try new things' when we make the change to 6Maj/8Min - I get to build a new gun and then have a choice on which gun I want to shoot for the match - yes most likely I will shoot the 627, less recoil and a couple extra shots sounds pretty good to me and frankly I question why some are making such big deal out of this change, but at least there's interest and passion about Revo and I commend you all for that.

I don't know if 8minor will gain us more rev shooters, I do know however that i will be shooting more with the change and less without.

Edited July 8, 2013 by almostold

[COF]

Comments like this alienate the non-revolver shooters. Why should a division that brings in 4% of the revenue for a match get 20% of the prizes? I'm all for making changes to the division that will help it grow and thrive, but if the revolver division needs a welfare program, maybe it should just go away.

For all the shooters that say there should be more revolver only matches, go out and make it happen. Sam did. Mike did. How many other revo shooters have put in the extra effort?

I don't think we're looking for a welfare program for the revolver division, just some incentives to get folks involved. I would think pushing revolver manufacturers to support these matches specifically for the revolver division would be a way to increase the prizes. While Smith is the predominant brand on the circuit they seem to be too busy building M&P pistols and rifles to worry about supporting competition shooters, i.e., no 5" 625s in the catalog. Taurus already makes an 8-shot revolver. If the rules change to include 8-shot minor, blitzing Taurus to build an unported version could be an option. Getting Ruger to build an 8-shot .357 and a .45 ACP on the Super Redhawk frame would open up the competition. But how do we get them to take on that R&D? Anyone have any ideas?

[Bosshoss]

Comments like this alienate the non-revolver shooters. Why should a division that brings in 4% of the revenue for a match get 20% of the prizes? I'm all for making changes to the division that will help it grow and thrive, but if the revolver division needs a welfare program, maybe it should just go away.

For all the shooters that say there should be more revolver only matches, go out and make it happen. Sam did. Mike did. How many other revo shooters have put in the extra effort?

I don't think we're looking for a welfare program for the revolver division, just some incentives to get folks involved. I would think pushing revolver manufacturers to support these matches specifically for the revolver division would be a way to increase the prizes. While Smith is the predominant brand on the circuit they seem to be too busy building M&P pistols and rifles to worry about supporting competition shooters, i.e., no 5" 625s in the catalog. Taurus already makes an 8-shot revolver. If the rules change to include 8-shot minor, blitzing Taurus to build an unported version could be an option. Getting Ruger to build an 8-shot .357 and a .45 ACP on the Super Redhawk frame would open up the competition. But how do we get them to take on that R&D? Anyone have any ideas?

Actually there was a revolver on the prize table at the nationals that Chris C. said was a Ruger(I wasn't paying attention) but when it was picked up by the winner Annette Aysen - Hi Lady, was told it was a prototype and she would get the gun when a production version was available. I saw the end of the gun and it was a .44 or .45 and not a .357.

I really wished I had looked closer at that Ruger as I couldn't tell if it was a Redhawk or GP100 frame.

If Ruger hears about their .45 revolver (if that is what it is) sales being tanked by a rule change in USPSA it may never see the light of day. I really feel the number of competition revolver shooters, be it USPSA or IDPA isn't enough for the manufactures to spend alot of time and money on. Smith has a 625 already and all it takes is a redo of a few thousand 5" barrels and screw them on the frame and they would make what maybe a few hundred USPSA shooters happy. With the 8 minor talk they(S&W) might also decide that it's not worth the time to catalogue a 5" 625 again.

Edited July 9, 2013 by Bosshoss

[Carmoney]

C'mon. Let's get real here.

Ruger has never cared about supporting USPSA competition in any sort of meaningful way. They have never made a DA revolver with competition shooters in mind--we are an inconsequential blip on the market share radar screens to them.

S&W dumped the 5" 625 from their product line about six years ago, and they have never made the slightest move in the direction of returning it to the product line. They have withdrawn virtually all of their support for revolver compeition--this year they even declined to sponsor the IRC, even though that event is nearly always promoted and televised.

They don't care about us. And they're never going to care as long as we keep doing things the same way and show the same kind of dismal participation numbers.