Revolver Division -- where is the post-Nationals surge?

[bbbean]

There are three basic reasons a lot of shooters don't get into revolver:

1) Speed - Obviously a lot of people get into the sport because they want to go FAST. Whatever division they start in, they tend to move to Lim or Open because they want to spend their time running and gunning, not planning and reloading.

2) Gear - Revolver requires an investment in dedicated equipment. Unlike every other division, your gun/holsters/mag pouches/mags aren't going to do double duty in another division, and if you're not already a revolver shooter, they probaby aren't going to do double duty as your carry/bedside gun.

3) The reload - SS/Prod/Lim/Lim10/Open all use essentialy the same reload. If you're good at one, you're probably comparably good at all of them without THAT much practice. But reloading a revolver is a whole different animal. You can have a blazing fast reload in your other divisions, but you'll still have to learn a whole new skill set to get your revolver skills up to speed.

Given those hurdles, I don't think you can expect a larger Nats to produce an overnight bump in revolver participation. But maybe that's the wrong goal for a revolver Nats. Maybe the question we should be asking is "do existing revolver shooters deserve a nationals on a par with the other divisions?"

I'm inclined to think the answer is a resounding yes. While I do think that over time, a more comparable revolver nats will bring a few more wheelgunners to other matches, I think the larger match is justified by simply offering existing wheelies parity. If that means 200 other shooters also dig out a revolver once a year and join them, so much the better. It hasn't hurt Single Stack!

FWIW, I bought a revolver rig and shot a few local matches because of Sam Keen's match in Memphis. If the Nats hadn't been the day after the SSN, I'd have shot the Nats, too. I'm giving serious thought to shooting the whelgun for a sectional or two later this year. So I suppose I'm an example of someone who did ad the division due to the presence of larger matches.

BB

[bdpaz]

In the club matches I don really care if anyone else shoots revolver, I'm shooting against myself, I only use the auto shooters as a measure to gauge improvement.

Theoretically, if I had to buy a 627 to shoot revolver, I wouldn't bother at this point.

I'm not trying to pick on you but your post is a good example something I find very confusing. As a representative of those who are shooting revolver for spiritual reasons and only competing against yourselves, why would you feel you'd be forced to use a 627 if 8 shot minor is allowed?

Edited June 21, 2013 by bdpaz

[dcloudy777]

. Too much reloading, they want 6 shot arrays, low round counts.

That's the beauty of my "MajorX2" system. It makes stages more "revolver friendly" without actually changing the stages.

[mcb]

The MajorX2 system sound like it could get really nasty and complicated on stages that have other than 2 per target. What do you do on targets with 3x or on classifiers where one string is 2 per and the next string is only 1 per?

[pskys2]

I've been shooting Combat/Practical/IPSC/USPSA since 1978. Got classified in Limited when it came out with a Revolver (M28) shooting Major. I love shooting Revo in USPSA or ICORE, but I love shooting my 1911 and my STI, I will shoot my G34 but it just doesn't draw me. If Revo goes to 8 shot Minor, probably won't change much for me, might break down and get one even, MAYBE.

What it comes down to is I don't think it matters what the local participation is.

What I do like is seeing a Stand Alone Revo Nationals and maybe some MCC style Revo Matches.

As long as the bigger matches for Revolvers fill up, and they do, the world is good. If it leads to more locals shooting Revo, great. If not?

Life is too short to get too set on any one platform.

[dcloudy777]

The MajorX2 system sound like it could get really nasty and complicated on stages that have other than 2 per target. What do you do on targets with 3x or on classifiers where one string is 2 per and the next string is only 1 per?

Hey, if you wanted things actually thought through, find someone smarter. I'm just a big dumb trigger puller.

[buckaroo45]

I'm curious how many revolver shooters there are like me. I'm 66, neuropathy of both hands (I'm near famous for dropping mags at the wrong time with a bottom feeder) and feet that don't do as well as I'd like. Eyesight is more apt to mislead me than not even with red dots as I look like I'm swatting flies when I can't find the damn dot! When moving I'm as agile as a Kenworth. I simply enjoy shooting and all the activities that go with it. Reloading, trying holsters and the like. I'm about to give up my Race Master in favor of a Side Armor holster for my N frames because I'm concerned I can't control the draw as required. I'm also the only regular revolver shooter in my club. I loaned my rig - a 625PC w/ Apex trigger, Race Master holster and North Mountain rack to one of our A + rated Limited shooters and it was sad to see how poorly he did. He couldn't give it back fast enough. I doubt he'll EVER go down the revo road again.

All that being said, my skill set no longer allows me to enter upscale matches and I'm not crazy about donating several hundred dollars for entry fee, hotel, food, transport etc so I'm mostly content with local club shoots. Don't look for me at the Nats or even the state tho I did win the 2011 Florida State USPSA match. I think there were only 3 or 4 revos entered as most other revos were at the Memphis match but I did beat #2 by 238 points. Not enough entrants for the record books. So I got THAT going for me - which is nice. ( ) Mebbe revo should just be considered for what it is. A more difficult challenge to ones shooting skills that many either don't have or choose not to invest the effort to excel; not unlike Single Stack which I also compete in. I'm simply pleased and content to be able to shoot my beloved N frames in something besides a 1 round every 3 seconds at a bulls eye target in an indoor range.

I'll shoot whatever revolver I'm allowed but I like big bullet 6 shooters best 'cause they ain't easy! Nuff' said.

Ron

Naval Aviator - Viet Nam

NRA LIFE

USPSA FY63917

SoFla Pistol Club

American by grace of God

[cas]

I'm not trying to pick on you but your post is a good example something I find very confusing. As a representative of those who are shooting revolver for spiritual reasons and only competing against yourselves, why would you feel you'd be forced to use a 627 if 8 shot minor is allowed?

Which is why I said "theoretically".

[cas]

. Too much reloading, they want 6 shot arrays, low round counts.

That's the beauty of my "MajorX2" system. It makes stages more "revolver friendly" without actually changing the stages.

Yeah but you're changing the game to try and attract people who don't really want to play the game.

[ChrisC]

ICORE gets around the 6vs 8 by making arrays with 6 shots or 9 or more shots. You do that with uspsa and you'll hear some single stack major guys scream something bad when the single stack minor guys have the edge.

[haggis]

I like the fact that USPSA has very many good places that revo shooters can play, so I play. The courses may not be revolver-neutral (there is no such thing as revolver-friendly when you're shooting against semiautos), but I play anyway. There may not be many people competing within the division, but that's OK, I still play. Revolvers are more difficult to shoot and reload, but I like the challenge as well, so I play.

You may notice a common theme in this discourse, I shoot revolvers because I like to. I suggest that many part time revolver shooters, some of whom are very good (notice who finished third in the revo nats?), don't shoot revolvers full time because they like other guns better. And that's great, too.

This thread started with Mike musing about how USPSA can attract more revolver shooters. This may sound like heresy, but there's not a lot more things that USPSA can do, nor should it. That job is up to us, the regular revolver shooters. We need to do things to increase participation in our sport, and gimmicking with the rules is definitely not the way to do it. We need to plant the seed with folks we know, whether non-competitors or shooters in other sports (or divisions). I keep a couple of loaner rigs for folks to try without buying a thing (except maybe ammo - hell, I will even provide that if they really need it). So let's stop asking USPSA, and do it ourselves.

Buck (Larry Huey)

USPSA L3357

ICORE LSC1754

[TGO]

I wonder if, you had an 8 minor loaner rig and offered the person you are helping the choice of it or a 6 major setup, if you'd tell him the 8 minor would be a better choice. Not to mention I'd bet he/she would choose the same? if they had any knowledge of what they were getting into?

[Flexmoney]

I wonder what would happen if we scored revo minor only and had it remain at 6 rounds. Then anybody with one of the zillions of popular 38's/357's would have a place to be fairly competitive with their $400 gun.

If we go to 8, where will we get the new shooters, after the big swell of ICORE dies down?

[Bosshoss]

I wonder what would happen if we scored revo minor only and had it remain at 6 rounds. Then anybody with one of the zillions of popular 38's/357's would have a place to be fairly competitive with their $400 gun.

If we go to 8, where will we get the new shooters, after the big swell of ICORE dies down?

Flex you mean instead of making it better for the several hundred 627 owners you want to try to get some of the several hundred THOUSAND who own 6 shot 38's to try the sport?

It makes since to go after the biggest pool but we need to figure out how to get these people to try the game.

Instead of dividing the existing revolver shooters with this change we have been discussing maybe we should be thinking of getting all these NEW revolvers to the range.

I have been reading all these threads and I need someone to tell me what I'm doing wrong. I keep reading that it is not fun reloading all the time. I worked hard practicing my reloads and I have a blast doing it.

The local matches I shoot all have 5 field course's and a classifier. The field course's are usually 30 to 32 rounds. I wish they were some longer one's actually. I just reload and go on I don't worry about it.

So what am I doing wrong?

[Bill Nesbitt]

I wonder what would happen if we scored revo minor only and had it remain at 6 rounds. Then anybody with one of the zillions of popular 38's/357's would have a place to be fairly competitive with their $400 gun.

If we go to 8, where will we get the new shooters, after the big swell of ICORE dies down?

And it doesn't cost much to get a 6 shot 38/357 cut for moon clips if you don't want to fool with speed loaders. Of course, speed loader shooters will always be morally superior.

6 shot, everybody scored minor. I think that could cause growth.

[paul788]

To add to the mix, I don't ask for changing the rules. I would like to see an array of less than four targets occaisonlly. I regularly shoot at three local clubs. At two of these clubs its weird to see a three or less target array in a field course. Not fun to have to do a standing reload at every location, every stage, every match. This is a course designer issue, not a rule issue. Variety is good.

There are more people who have .38/.357 guns than 625s. I know more people who have 625s than 627s. I'd try to get the minor shooting group to grow versus chasing the ICORE 627 owners. (I shoot ICORE Classic)

Paul Beck

A49023

[TGO]

I wonder what would happen if we scored revo minor only and had it remain at 6 rounds. Then anybody with one of the zillions of popular 38's/357's would have a place to be fairly competitive with their $400 gun.

If we go to 8, where will we get the new shooters, after the big swell of ICORE dies down?

They already can do that, most say they are only doing it for fun and they still don't shoot those guns. They never will. I'm not against the 6 minor thing but it solves no problem The guys shooting revolvers in ICORE are using 8 shooters. We need to be hospitable to other organizations competitors who may cross over. That means 8 minor. Then all have toys that are legal. i do appreciate your attention to this issue. The needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many.

[bdpaz]

This post is to summarize my opinions on the various arguments in the multiple threads on changing Revolver Division rules. I am a mid-pack Single Stack & Limited USPSA shooter. I shoot Open, Limited and Classic in ICORE and all of the above at Tuesday Night Steel at Rio Salado. Some of what follows may be less than polite but, after having been cumulatively accused in these threads of being a shooter unable to tolerate major who is looking to make revo easy because I'm afraid of the effort required to shoot a revolver, my own feelings have been hurt.

A stand alone Nationals is a fun specialty match but does nothing to increase local participation and should not be used to judge the health of the division. Most of the shooters from Rio Salado who went to Nationals do not normally shoot revo in USPSA. They all said it was a great match but none of them started shooting revo in our local USPSA matches after returning from Nationals.

With an 8 shot revolver you can shoot stages in a manner similar to the other divisions and your score is determined by your ability to shoot a revolver. With a 6 shot revo your score is determined by your ability to figure out the least awkward way to make 6 shots work. A few people like this, but many do not. At Rio we have 30 to 40 people at an ICORE match but only one or two at a USPSA match. Many of them also shoot USPSA but choose not to shoot it with a revolver. The rationalization that there are only a few USPSA revolver shooters because people aren't willing to put in the effort to shoot a revolver just isn't true.

Nothing will bring the storied thousands of people who own 6 shot .38/.357 revolvers out to shoot USPSA. USPSA attracts a small percentage of shooters and revolver owners are a small percentage of those shooters - go to any range and see how many are shooting revolvers. We don't have a vast untapped pool of revolver owners with a K or L frame sitting in a drawer wanting to jump directly to competitive shooting. And even if they did, they wouldn't enjoy it because of the 8 shot nature of the matches.

The person we can attract to revo is the competitive shooter looking for something different, and who most likely will not want to shoot revolver exclusively. Opening it up to 8 shots lets them use similar stage planning skills and then fairly compare their results with their different guns. 6 shot revolver may be a rewarding mental challenge that appeals to a few but an 8 shot revolver is more about the shooting and fits in with the other USPSA divisions.

I would prefer to just remove the 6 shot restriction and let people shoot 8 shot major if they like. Open up Revo and make it a division that appeals to the shooter who wants something new and challenging, and let him pick the nature of that challenge. But I'll be satisfied with 8 shot Minor.

Edited for spelling, and again for grammar and more spelling.

Edited June 28, 2013 by bdpaz

[wheelie]

snipped a bunch..........

I would prefer to just remove the 6 shot restriction and let people shoot 8 shot major if they like. Open up Revo and make it a division that appeals to the shooter who wants something new and challenging, and let him pick the nature of that challenge. But I'll be satisfied with 8 shot Minor.

Open Up Revolver!

Any revolver, minor and major scoring as done in other classes.

More ways for more people with different revolvers to have fun.

[mcb]

snipped a bunch..........

I would prefer to just remove the 6 shot restriction and let people shoot 8 shot major if they like. Open up Revo and make it a division that appeals to the shooter who wants something new and challenging, and let him pick the nature of that challenge. But I'll be satisfied with 8 shot Minor.

Open Up Revolver!

Any revolver, minor and major scoring as done in other classes.

More ways for more people with different revolvers to have fun.

Would you require 40cal for Major like Limited or allow 9mm to make Major like open?

[wheelie]

snipped a bunch..........

I would prefer to just remove the 6 shot restriction and let people shoot 8 shot major if they like. Open up Revo and make it a division that appeals to the shooter who wants something new and challenging, and let him pick the nature of that challenge. But I'll be satisfied with 8 shot Minor.

Open Up Revolver!

Any revolver, minor and major scoring as done in other classes.

More ways for more people with different revolvers to have fun.

Would you require 40cal for Major like Limited or allow 9mm to make Major like open?

I'd go on power factor alone.

If you're using a .357 revolver its easy as pie.

Or you could shoot plain ol' 9mm or .38 Super, or 9X23 or anything that made your skirt blow up.

If it passes the test its major.

The advantage of the short rimless cases is that they would load a bit better, balanced against the difficulty of reaching major with the limited powder capacity.

I think its a safety issue to eliminate 9mm major in auto pistols, revolvers might not be so problematic. Or they might. If it becomes a problem deal with it then. There's too many rules as it is. I suggest simplicity as the first best answer.

[sargenv]

Eh, I shoot minor 6 shooter anyway.. It comes down to recoil management and long barrel sight picture.. I don't shoot a revo after the IRC mostly to keep from burning out.. It find that it helps my semi-auto shooting (Production this year) and after October my sights switch completely away from the sport and I do a real practical application of firearms.. Waterfowl hunting.. 8 shot minor, 6 shot minor/major, it just doesn't matter to me to argue about it anymore.. We have icore matches I can shoot my 6 shooter at and if I can practice, I do fairly well.. For me anymore, it's all good trigger time.. For next year.. well, you'll just have to see what I'm up to then.. and I'm sticking to a 6 shooter.. but it won't be the 610 unless brass becomes an issue..

The main reason I don't shoot any other majors is I simply can't afford the travel any longer.. the IRC and the norcal section match are it for me for now..

[rgkeller]

I cannot understand the logic unpinning the belief that it is the BODs responsibility to round up revolver shooters.

[Nik Habicht]

I wonder what would happen if we scored revo minor only and had it remain at 6 rounds. Then anybody with one of the zillions of popular 38's/357's would have a place to be fairly competitive with their $400 gun.

If we go to 8, where will we get the new shooters, after the big swell of ICORE dies down?

They already can do that, most say they are only doing it for fun and they still don't shoot those guns. They never will. I'm not against the 6 minor thing but it solves no problem The guys shooting revolvers in ICORE are using 8 shooters. We need to be hospitable to other organizations competitors who may cross over. That means 8 minor. Then all have toys that are legal. i do appreciate your attention to this issue. The needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many.

I get that ICORE is a popular game out west -- I'm not sure the East Coast or the Midwest will see the same crossover influx you're predicting....

Could we see a similar or higher influx by making the division minor scoring only, and keeping the limit at 6 shots fired between reloads? It would open the division up to a whole bunch of .38/.357 guns that could be converted to moonclips affordably....

[Carmoney]

I cannot understand the logic unpinning the belief that it is the BODs responsibility to round up revolver shooters.

You don't think that promoting and facilitating participation across all of the various recognized USPSA divisions is part of the BOD's mission?

Edited June 29, 2013 by Carmoney