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Revolver Division -- where is the post-Nationals surge?


Carmoney

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So we had this great USPSA Revolver National Championship with record-shattering attendance, right? We all hoped there would be a nice resurgence of interest in competing with wheelguns in USPSA this year, right?

Wrong.

Here are the actual number of revolver shooters who competed at the most recent five major USPSA matches around the country:

Western PA Sectional 4

Mile High 2

Area 5 2

Arkansas Sectional 0

Oregon State 3

That's pathetic. Furthermore, it looks like the top guys in the division aren't bothering to shoot the big matches--at least not with their wheelguns.

My next three majors are the Iowa Sectional, Area 3, and the Great Plains Sectional. Looking at the online squadding system, I see two C-class revolvers signed up for Area 3 and none at all for the other two matches. So I'm going to shoot in another division where I can actually compete against somebody.

My opinion: If Revolver division is to have any prayer of staying viable on a year-round basis, USPSA needs to do something to promote interest in the platform. Know what I mean, BOD?

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I am half considering just shooting open with my icore rig for A7 and A8 to stick with one gun for the whole year.

The two big uspsa matches left for me this year are A7 which has 13 revolvers registered right now, and A8 which has 7.

At this point, if I had a complete 2011, that's what I would be shooting in uspsa.

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What no resurgence of Revo shooter after the First Nationals Revolver Championships. Here is my look of surprize :0. Chris C. and I have been talking about this for a while. A success? It is all how you spin it. What is your measurement for success. If it is to see if you can fill up a Stand Alone Revolver Match, (ahem attached to another stand alone match where another division shooter can shoot one more day) yea then you could measure this as a success. We, not anyone else, need to make it rewarding enough to have a better attenance at local and are matches. Chris C., Roger R and I have signed up for the Indiana match along with Paul and Scott F. Right now they're 8 Revo shooters signed up. I believe this same group is headed to lower Canada to shoot at the Bend At the River ICORE Regional match The next Day along with the Area 4 in Fort Smith in Sept. Our Small Group in OKC will have at least one of the top end (in our group) shooters will compete agaist the rest of us using minor in 8 shot Revo. We can only make so many matches a year and it is a lot of travel expense to make matches and they seem to be one weekend after another until it just ceases for a while. I am open to suggestions and help. later Roger Davis

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Here in Washington and Oregon, It's very common to see ...only one or two revolvers at USPSA matches...and it's pretty much been this way for years....We run a revolver friendly match, and only 2 (two) guys usually show up with revolvers.

Maybe advertising "revolver preferred" would help find those "safe queens"...?

rfe

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I'm signed up for Area 8, plan on trying to sign up for Area 7 as well. I agree participation is lacking.

Besides going 8 shot minor, which I understand - but still feel it will kill 6 shot major - What can be done?

I assume the top revolver guys dont bother shooting revo because / - no competition / no pay outs because the division is so small ?

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Contact Rob Boudrie ASAP if you want a spot in A7. It's up over 300 shooters and I'm guessing he'll shut down registration soon.

There were 10 revo shooters at A7 last year, 2 GM, 1 A, 3 B, 3 C. The next lowest attended division was L10 w/ 16 shooters (all <=A).

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Contact Rob Boudrie ASAP if you want a spot in A7. It's up over 300 shooters and I'm guessing he'll shut down registration soon.

There were 10 revo shooters at A7 last year, 2 GM, 1 A, 3 B, 3 C. The next lowest attended division was L10 w/ 16 shooters (all <=A).

I know I should get a move on, just printed up a form - gotta scrounge up the extra cash.

There looks to be at least a 15 or so friday slots open , which i'm fine with.

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My opinion: If Revolver division is to have any prayer of staying viable on a year-round basis, USPSA needs to do something to promote interest in the platform. Know what I mean, BOD?

It would be nice to see more revolver shooters actually shooting revolver class. At my local club we have at least nine revolver shooters, two of which shot at the nationals. However, I'm the only one who consistently shoots revolver class. Most shoot open class with their open ICORE revolvers. The others shoot production or limited ten with 627s.

Going to 8 shot minor might attract a few more ICORE limited shooters. Not sure it's going to do much more than to get a bunch of revolver shooters to go buy another gun though.

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So we had this great USPSA Revolver National Championship with record-shattering attendance, right? We all hoped there would be a nice resurgence of interest in competing with wheelguns in USPSA this year, right?

Wrong.

Here are the actual number of revolver shooters who competed at the most recent five major USPSA matches around the country:

Western PA Sectional 4

Mile High 2

Area 5 2

Arkansas Sectional 0

Oregon State 3

That's pathetic. Furthermore, it looks like the top guys in the division aren't bothering to shoot the big matches--at least not with their wheelguns.

My next three majors are the Iowa Sectional, Area 3, and the Great Plains Sectional. Looking at the online squadding system, I see two C-class revolvers signed up for Area 3 and none at all for the other two matches. So I'm going to shoot in another division where I can actually compete against somebody.

I think you answered your own question there Mike.

My opinion: If Revolver division is to have any prayer of staying viable on a year-round basis, USPSA needs to do something to promote interest in the platform. Know what I mean, BOD?

What do you think USPSA needs to do?

8 minor? that has already been discussed at length here and has as many downsides as upsides.

USPSA made a great first step in having the Nationals stand alone and open to everyone.

As Roger alluded to there are groups of revolver shooters across the country that support revolver class and shoot revolver in all or almost all of their shoots. Those shooters can not shoot all the matches(at least I can't afford to).

The Indiana section has a couple majors a year and they draw a good size revolver crowd. They also have some great stages and it is why these matchs draw a big crowd of shooters and not just revolver shooters. The Indiana sectional is one of the biggest sectionals in the country usually drawing over 300 shooters.

I feel that a little support from the manufactures at the lower level matches would help a little. Sam's MCC and the nationals have a decent prize table at least. If there would have been say 10 shooters at the area 5 what would they have won? Travel that far and pay that big a entry fee and basically shoot for fun. I shot a local match instead and it was just for fun also but didn't cost near as much.

I would like to see local clubs have a match once a year where anyone shooting a revolver gets to shoot for $5(to cover USPSA fee's) instead of the regular match fee. I don't think this would make that big a difference but it might help generate a little interest.

S&W is busy with the plastic guns and AR's right now but IF they made a 5" 625 again and offered a few of them by draw for anyone shooting say 8 or 10 classifiers that year would that help sell more of them if the shooter thought they had a shot at winning something for there work?

Just some thoughts but me and and a lot of the other revolver only shooter would like some say in it if they are thinking of changing the game by allowing 8 minor.

I'm used to being the only one or one of a very few and I wish more would try it but even if it stays the way it is I shoot revolver ONLY because that is what I enjoy, and I love the challange.

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S&W is busy with the plastic guns and AR's right now but IF they made a 5" 625 again and offered a few of them by draw for anyone shooting say 8 or 10 classifiers that year would that help sell more of them if the shooter thought they had a shot at winning something for there work?

S&W didn't sponsor the IRC this year.

Its fairly easy to draw conclusions about why that might be.

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Let's look at everything overall. Nothing has changed except for a standalone nationals. Everything on levels below that is still the same. I think there needs to be a change if USPSA is actually looking to boost numbers in the division. I believe the vote to provisionally allow 8 shots in the division is coming up, might want to talk to your directors to show your support of however you feel.

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I am ambivalent now, its not going to change anything at the club level, nor at the level 2 and level 3 matches.

I consider having the national participation so high a victory, and if that is all that comes of it then its still a win for the division.

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I shoot a bottom feeder, so I don't come from the revolver point of view, but I haven't heard a compelling argument for why USPSA needs to do something different to grow the revolver division. Do you think the majority of the people who shot the revolver nationals aren't still shooting USPSA in other divisions?

If there is a way to attract new shooters to USPSA I'm all for it. If all you are going to do is move people from one division to another, that seems like a wash to me. And if it takes something special to make that happen (reduced match fees or some other USPSA welfare program) I would call that a negative move.

The fact that the vast majority of USPSA shooters don't want to shoot a revolver isn't going to be an easy thing to change. 8 round minor might attract a few new shooters, but I don't see it having a huge impact on overall numbers one way or another.

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It's been a little over a month since the Revolver Nationals and I would imagine that those who have registered or participated in major matches since then had already made their decision on what division they were going to compete in. More time is needed to see if shooting revolver in local matches grows any. A month is not long enough I believe to make a good assessment. We live in a society of instant gratification seeking, and quickly giving up on things that don't immediately fulfill our wants/needs. Things do not always progress quickly and taking the long view can reap benefits.

I consider the fact that the Revolver nationals was full as a success. I have no illusions that the match being a success would instantly cause a surge of revolver shooters to magically show up at more matches. I personally feel that if there were 3-4 major matches (Memphis Charity Challenge, Revolver Nationals, and two more) that more revolver shooters MIGHT be seen at local matches and such also. The reason that I see is that people will practice for major revolver events by shooting revolver in more local matches. If there are 3-4 during the year it would encourage more revolver use at local matches to prepare for them. People are going to shoot what they are planning to use in major matches at the local matches, so with only 2 major revolver focused matches other divisions will be practiced many of those that have the options of shooting multiple divisions.

I shoot revolver division almost soley for competition, and I don't think that i have ever used an auto in USPSA competition. The one production classifier that I have listed was shot with my revolver. I would love to see more revolver competitors at all levels of matches, but there are four other auto divisions competing for participation. Increasing revolver participation will not be easy, but that does not mean that we should stop trying. Only in the last few years has there been a serious heightened interest in increasing revolver division, and the stand alone revolver nationals is progress. It is not the cure to all the issues of increasing revolver participation, but a step in the right direction.

Edited by Blueridge
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I shot my first USPSA match this year at a local match last Sunday using my 627. Shot limited 10 due to my Racemaster holster or I would have shot it in Production. I had a blast! I was able to pick up a 646 a little while ago and am going to use it in Revolver division next month. The Uber-tactical crowd on my squad were quite taken with my BMT mooner and could appreciate that I was getting all my brass back. I could tell that a revolver shooter was not something that they were used to being squaded with. Any converts? Probably not, but they were interested! :D

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The MCC was a first step, the Nationals was the next, the third will need to be more "Money/Must DO Revolver Matches. Only when there is more pressure for entries will the desire of local shooters increase. And even then it may never trickle down.

Either way it will take more than a few weeks, most everyone had already decided for this year what they would be shooting, long before May.

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Mr Carmoney, it was nice to talk to you in person this year and match a name to a face. I'm glad someone brought this up. I think it's hard to convince people to seriously shoot a large match if they don't see a reason to. We're having trouble enough getting people to come and play with revolvers on the local level; sanctioned matches are not generally things that someone is willing to go shoot whatever division just for ha-has. I think the specific group of people who WOULD be surging the national event attendance are individuals who are already vested in action pistol shooting to a significant degree, found revolver shooting appealing, and are willing to devote at least half of their time to it.

This year's IDPA Carolina Cup had 33 combined revolver shooters between Stock and Enhanced Service Revolver. Either the ESP or SSP Sharpshooter category ALONE is enough to top this aggregate amount.

I think one question is, Who were the people that constituted this surge of revolver shooters at the Revolver Nationals? How many of them were Single Stack crossovers or local shooters who wanted to participate in a national level match close to home? Who are the shooters who participate in big matches (The USPSA Revo, the Memphis Charity match, the IRC, the bigger IDPA matches, ICORE Regional Events) who are potentially NOT shooting on the club level?

Flipping that around, are there a significant amount of club level shooters that aren't shooting big matches? Is this just a matter of proportion? Think of your local clubs and a big division like Production. Of all the regulars who shoot Production, how many of them shoot major matches (IDPA Sanctioned, ICORE Official Matches, USPSA Level II or above)? Do those folks shoot one or two matches a year, or do they travel and shoot all year? My supposition is that it's a relatively small percentage at most places. If it's a small percentage for Production, it's going to be even smaller for a division that some people insist is a novelty division for old guys wearing suspenders.

" would like to see local clubs have a match once a year where anyone shooting a revolver gets to shoot for $5(to cover USPSA fee's) instead of the regular match fee. I don't think this would make that big a difference but it might help generate a little interest."

You could try. I think people are just vested in shooting whatever division they are shooting, just like we are vested in shooting revolver. There are a few folks who like to bounce between divisions for the fun of it, but most "serious" competitors I know are not constantly changing platforms when it comes to pistols.

"S&W is busy with the plastic guns and AR's right now but IF they made a 5" 625 again and offered a few of them by draw for anyone shooting say 8 or 10 classifiers that year would that help sell more of them if the shooter thought they had a shot at winning something for there work"

Didn't Smith and Wesson have something where people shooting matches could send in some info and be entered into a drawing for a gun? I think if you combine every revolver competition platform (action pistol, bullseye, PPC), we would still not really be a significant portion of Smith and Wesson's market. This ongoing challenge is on us, not on a manufacturer. The only thing I could see possibly working is if a revolver company started up it's own format, just like Glock has the "GSSF" events.

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Does anybody honestly think that USPSA can do anything that will result in a "surge" of revolver shooters showing up? New shooters? Swelling the ranks? Be honest now. Try not to confuse personal preference with something that will actually generate new members.

I have closely followed all the threads on the topic over the years. I try to poll all the revo shooters that I see at matches. I am pretty sure I've heard most of the prevailing points of view on the matter. I am all ears for something new. Let me hear it.

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Does anybody honestly think that USPSA can do anything that will result in a "surge" of revolver shooters showing up? New shooters? Swelling the ranks? Be honest now. Try not to confuse personal preference with something that will actually generate new members.

I have closely followed all the threads on the topic over the years. I try to poll all the revo shooters that I see at matches. I am pretty sure I've heard most of the prevailing points of view on the matter. I am all ears for something new. Let me hear it.

Absolutely not. I am not sure that anyone besides revo shooters even care. Revo should be exactly what it is IMO. It isn't popular now and it isn't going to be popular in the future no matter what magic people want to make happen.

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I am all ears for something new. Let me hear it.

OK Flex, since you are a BOD member, since you are tuned in (thank you!), and since you asked--here are a few radical ideas:

1. USPSA could adopt a rule that all divisions must be treated equally in terms of recognition and prize distribution. So if you're giving away 20 guns at a big match in Open and Limited Divisions, you would have to award an equal amount of comparable gun prizes in Production, Single Stack and Revolver also. I guarantee you that would stimulate serious interest in the "smaller" divisions--although you would probably pull most of the shooters away from the other platforms.

2. USPSA could purchase and incorporate ICORE, just like it bought the Steel Challenge from Dalton and Fichman, and promote the heck out of the ICORE game on a national level.

3. USPSA could eliminate Revolver as a Division, and establish Revolver as a special category--but with real recognition and prizes--within the other divisions: Open (8-shot revolvers with comps and optics), Limited (8-shot with iron sights and no comps/ports), L-10 (6-shot with moonclips), and Production ("stock" 6-shot w/speedloaders, minor PF and scoring).

4. USPSA could promote and support a series of Revolver-only major matches throughout the year, perhaps similar to Area Championships, which would lead up to the culmination of a stand-alone National Championship match in November.

5. USPSA could adopt a provisional change in the Revolver Division equipment rules to allow 8-shot revolvers for a two-year period, leaving the option of returning to the current rules if there is not a significant increase in participation.

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Clearly from reading the numbers at the beginning of this thread, there is zero downside to going 8 minor. When your numbers are that pathetic you have to do something to pump a little life in a dead division. Anything, to bring some numbers. I own a 625 and 627. I shoot the 627 in L10m 95% of the time. I know many more would jump into revolver just the same and myself. At my last local USPSA match there were 6 revolvers entered only two shot in revolver division.

Really! how much worse could revolver get. There is no where else to go but up....

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