Revolver Division -- where is the post-Nationals surge?

[Flexmoney]

Thanks Mike.

Let me respond to those on a point by point basis. And, please realize that I am not arguing or being critical...just bouncing back thoughts that come to me (brainstorming) as I read.

1. USPSA could adopt a rule that all divisions must be treated equally in terms of recognition and prize distribution. So if you're giving away 20 guns at a big match in Open and Limited Divisions, you would have to award an equal amount of comparable gun prizes in Production, Single Stack and Revolver also. I guarantee you that would stimulate serious interest in the "smaller" divisions--although you would probably pull most of the shooters away from the other platforms.

One thing I am loath to do is to have USPSA dictate the details of how a match should be run. I have 1st hand experience (as MD for IPSC Nats) on how that centralization of power can grow from good intentions. Fundamentally, I'd like to let Match Directors direct their matches, as much as possible.

Plus, as you mentioned, we'd probably just be shuffling the deck...moving shooters from one division to another.

(Maybe run some thoughts on the idea of extra slots for Nationals being available to win at more matches. And/Or, entering Revo for X-number of majors gets you in a drawing for slots.)

2. USPSA could purchase and incorporate ICORE, just like it bought the Steel Challenge from Dalton and Fichman, and promote the heck out of the ICORE game on a national level.

I've thought of that one as well. I really can't figure out an angle that would make that work. I can figure out LOTS of ways it could fail, though. (I won't spam those here.)

3. USPSA could eliminate Revolver as a Division, and establish Revolver as a special category--but with real recognition and prizes--within the other divisions: Open (8-shot revolvers with comps and optics), Limited (8-shot with iron sights and no comps/ports), L-10 (6-shot with moonclips), and Production ("stock" 6-shot w/speedloaders, minor PF and scoring).

I've always been of the opinion that equipemnt sub-categories are really just a different way of saying divisions. The reality would be that we'd be adding divisions, IMO.

Intersting breakdown though. It might bring some participation, but fall short in competition.

4. USPSA could promote and support a series of Revolver-only major matches throughout the year, perhaps similar to Area Championships, which would lead up to the culmination of a stand-alone National Championship match in November.

I like the idea, but...logistics?

5. USPSA could adopt a provisional change in the Revolver Division equipment rules to allow 8-shot revolvers for a two-year period, leaving the option of returning to the current rules if there is not a significant increase in participation.

I wouldn't buy a 625 or a 627 (or two)...if the division wasn't stable.

[Flexmoney]

Clearly from reading the numbers at the beginning of this thread, there is zero downside to going 8 minor. When your numbers are that pathetic you have to do something to pump a little life in a dead division. Anything, to bring some numbers. I own a 625 and 627. I shoot the 627 in L10m 95% of the time. I know many more would jump into revolver just the same and myself. At my last local USPSA match there were 6 revolvers entered only two shot in revolver division.

Really! how much worse could revolver get. There is no where else to go but up....

One downside....

We just had the Revo Nats. 120 shooters showed up. That is about 6x as many shooters as a regular Revo Nationals. It would be a fair estimate to say that 100 of those shooters shot the 625. That proves that aren't unobtanable. In fact, there are a good bunch on them on the gun auction sites as we speak.

The downside is, those 100 shoters would probably have to go buy 627's...and backups. If I would have just bought a 625 (which I nearly did), I'd be pissed if I needed to then go buy a 627.

[Flexmoney]

The only thing that I think would really have any chance of bringing in new Revo shooters would be 6-minor. There are more 357's and 38's than anything. Some of them are rather affordable.

[MrBorland]

The only thing that I think would really have any chance of bringing in new Revo shooters would be 6-minor. There are more 357's and 38's than anything. Some of them are rather affordable.

One can already shoot 6-minor, so I assume you mean changing the division to "all minor", as in Production?

[ede]

It's been said more or less already but I'll add to this thread. Instead of sub divisions add the following divisions:

Revolver-Production 6 Minor speed loaders only

Revolver- Limited 8 Major or 8 Minor and 6 Major

Revolver-Open anything goes, comps, dots, major or minor and 6 or 8

[Dragon11]

The only thing that I think would really have any chance of bringing in new Revo shooters would be 6-minor. There are more 357's and 38's than anything. Some of them are rather affordable.

Its hard to disagree with this. Isn't this the reason that production division exploded into the high numbers it has. The cost of getting into the division and the sport?

[PatJones]

I wasn't at the mile high, I had to work Friday and Saturday . I shot the monthly competition in Weld on Sunday in limited 10 with my 627.

The competition in weld had 4 revo shooters. Two were shooting their ICORE open guns, i was the only shooter in L10 and there was one shooter in revo with a 625.

I shoot L10 because I don't want to take my racemaster off my belt.

In these small categories I'm trying to move up the overall standings since there is no one to shoot against. In my opinion 6 minor is moving in the wrong direction.

I'm happy in limited 10 but PLEASE allow me to score major in 357 brass. It is safe to do so, this is not 9 major.

-Pat Jones

[seanc]

I don't know what 6 minor means, you can do that today. You mean like do away with major?

[Bosshoss]

Does anybody honestly think that USPSA can do anything that will result in a "surge" of revolver shooters showing up? New shooters? Swelling the ranks? Be honest now. Try not to confuse personal preference with something that will actually generate new members.

I have closely followed all the threads on the topic over the years. I try to poll all the revo shooters that I see at matches. I am pretty sure I've heard most of the prevailing points of view on the matter. I am all ears for something new. Let me hear it.

Flex I don't see anything that will "swell" the ranks. I would try anything if it was not a permanent rule change but I'm sure that the 8 minor thing will not change anything at a local level(at least in my area). I know a couple of shooters beside myself that have 627's and they have little interest in shooting them in any speed event. I have even tried to talk them into shooting steel with them and it's a NO-GO. The 627 is the most versatile gun in USPSA right now as it is legal in 5 of the 6 divisions so why isn't there a bunch of them running around now?( and at least somewhat competitive with the 8 shot arrays)

Revolvers have a steep learning curve and not everyone wants to spend the time and effort to get good with one, but once you do it the challenge keeps you hooked(or it does for me at least).

The nationals was a huge success this year but I wonder what will happen next year after the "NEW" wears off? Will it fill up again?

Will it go to slots like the other nationals? It would be hard to say if going to slots would hurt the attendance of the nationals or not. Would it help the attendance of other majors if slots are awarded there? I don't believe it would as you have a very few revolver shooters that are going to run to several majors trying to win a slot.(or can afford to)

On a local level I would guess that less than 10% of the shooters have any interest or the money to attend a major event. Since Area 5 is now within driving distance to the revolver nationals I hope to see more interest in revolver but nothing yet, nothing is going to happen over night we need to give it more time before making any major changes.

If they are going to go to slots for the revolver nationals what about this.

Just an idea but what if slots to the Nationals were awarded on a points basis? Shooter would get 1 point for every level 1 match they shoot with a revolver for the year and 3 points for a level 2 match and 5 points for a level 3 match. Anyone with say 15 points gets a slot after that it goes to first come first serve if a 100 shooters have 15 points then their will be only 20 spots for first come first serve. That might drive the attendance up at the local level and at the majors.

I do still prefer the open to everyone format as long as it is practical.

Just some rambling thoughts.

Edited June 19, 2013 by Bosshoss

[Dragon11]

I don't know what 6 minor means, you can do that today. You mean like do away with major?

I'm not going to speak for Flexmoney, but that's exactly what I meant. Making the division 6 shot minor. I don't see that happening though, not enough people are for it. And I don't totally disagree with them. I have 3 625's and 1 627, I don't own a 686 or the like. It doesn't totally benefit me to make the division 6 shot minor only. I only threw in my two cents to help bring in a different angle. After all, we're talking about trying to bring in numbers to the revolver division, it doesn't hurt to look at all available options.

Edited June 19, 2013 by Dragon11

[Flexmoney]

I would try anything if it was not a permanent rule change...

This, from the USPSA bylaws:

16.2 Competition Equipment Rules Modifications:

Changes to U.S. Division rules affecting personal competition equipment shall be adopted for a specific

Division no more frequently than every two years except as may be required to comply with federal laws.

Those changes must be published in the corporate newsletter three months prior to effective date.

[Flexmoney]

In my opinion 6 minor is moving in the wrong direction.

Why do you feel that way? Personal preference? 625's and 8-shot Revolvers are fringe guns. If you want numbers, don't you need to have a place for 38/357 six guns to play?

[Flexmoney]

Just an idea but what if slots to the Nationals were awarded on a points basis? Shooter would get 1 point for every level 1 match they shoot with a revolver for the year and 3 points for a level 2 match and 5 points for a level 3 match. Anyone with say 15 points gets a slot after that it goes to first come first serve if a 100 shooters have 15 points then their will be only 20 spots for first come first serve. That might drive the attendance up at the local level and at the majors.

I do still prefer the open to everyone format as long as it is practical.

Just some rambling thoughts.

Neat.

[PatJones]

In my opinion 6 minor is moving in the wrong direction.

Why do you feel that way? Personal preference? 625's and 8-shot Revolvers are fringe guns. If you want numbers, don't you need to have a place for 38/357 six guns to play?

When you are the only revolver shooter at at a match, the fun comes from beating people shooting semi autos. A 6 shot gun scored minor, that's even worse than we have now.

An STI 2011 is a fringe gun too, but the matches are full of them. There will never be a lot of revolver shooters, it's harder then shooting a high capacity gun. Just let us shoot guns where we can hold our own against some of the other shooters. A 686 with speedloaders is not it.

-Pat Jones

[Flexmoney]

When you are the only revolver shooter at at a match, the fun comes from beating people shooting semi autos.

Isn't the whole idea to grow the Revolver? If we make changes and you are still the only one...then the cahnges are meaningless?

[PatJones]

When you are the only revolver shooter at at a match, the fun comes from beating people shooting semi autos.

Isn't the whole idea to grow the Revolver? If we make changes and you are still the only one...then the cahnges are meaningless?

Fair enough.

6 shot guns are not fun for most people the way matches are currently set up. several of my friends who shoot USPSA have purchased 8 shot revolvers to come shoot ICORE with me. They could probably be persuaded to use it in USPSA occasionally if there was a better place for them.

If 8 shot minor isn't a good option, why not 8 shot major in L10?

Do we want more revolver shooters, or more shooters in revolver division?

-Pat Jones

[MarkCO]

When you are the only revolver shooter at at a match, the fun comes from beating people shooting semi autos. A 6 shot gun scored minor, that's even worse than we have now.

An STI 2011 is a fringe gun too, but the matches are full of them. There will never be a lot of revolver shooters, it's harder then shooting a high capacity gun. Just let us shoot guns where we can hold our own against some of the other shooters. A 686 with speedloaders is not it.

-Pat Jones

Call me shocked, but you really seem to represent an outlier position. You joined USPSA last year, shot a total of 2 matches, none in Revolver, and now you are advocating complete divisional changes? Last match you were 3rd out of 4 in a division with a senior, a super senior, and a guy missing some fingers shooting a baby Glock in 10mm, who won, BTW. Good guys to be sure, but L10 is not a very competitive division here in CO. We have some very accomplished Revo shooters here in CO, just not all make it to any one match at the same time.

Maybe I am off here, but I am more and more thinking USPSA should re-focus on the core values...DVC with autopistols...and let Revo shooters shoot ICORE. I don't want a SASS, a 6, 7, and 8 shot Revo division, heck I'd be happy if Revo and L10 went away. Open, Lim, SS, Prod seems to be fine to me. We don't need to be everything to everyone, but USPSA should be the best it can be for the dedicated core shooters who have supported the sport through the years.

Edited June 19, 2013 by MarkCO

[PatJones]

Call me shocked, but you really seem to represent an outlier position. You joined USPSA last year, shot a total of 2 matches, none in Revolver, and now you are advocating complete divisional changes? Last match you were 3rd out of 4 in a division with a senior, a super senior, and a guy missing some fingers shooting a baby Glock in 10mm, who won, BTW. Good guys to be sure, but L10 is not a very competitive division here in CO. We have some very accomplished Revo shooters here in CO, just not all make it to any one match at the same time.

Maybe I am off here, but I am more and more thinking USPSA should re-focus on the core values...DVC with autopistols...and let Revo shooters shoot ICORE. I don't want a SASS, a 6, 7, and 8 shot Revo division, heck I'd be happy if Revo and L10 went away. Open, Lim, SS, Prod seems to be fine to me. We don't need to be everything to everyone, but USPSA should be the best it can be for the dedicated core shooters who have supported the sport through the years.

Wow, getting a little personal aren't we?

Yup, I joined USPSA late last year after shooting USPSA matches without a number for most of the year. I do believe I'm the shooter you're all looking to draw in. I came over from ICORE, not another USPSA division. So if I'm the shooter that everyone is looking to draw in why is my opinion worth less than yours?

There has been some disagreement here about allowing the 627's to shoot 8 minor in revolver division as it could potentially make the 625 obsolete. I simply feel that allowing a gun chambered in .357 magnum to score major in L10 is a smaller change than what has been proposed. 627's will not be taking over L10.

And to answer your accusation, yes it is very difficult to beat other shooters with a revolver while being scored minor.

-Pat Jones

[alecmc]

I don't know what 6 minor means, you can do that today. You mean like do away with major?

Confused by this as well..

all them 686's can play in revo div already, declared minor on 38 spl... or if your so inclined to make major, feel free.

[MarkCO]

It is not personal at all Pat. I am sure you are also a nice guy. My questioning is really do we need to spend time and effort to get the shooters like you in USPSA? If so, where is the overall benefit to the membership, especially if we have to tweak and twist the divisions to make you happy? I am reminded of the recent Red Robin add...why would they try to market to vegetarians? They instead made fun of them and they will get more red meat eaters as a result. We, as in USPSA, lost one of the best shooting sports marketers to another discipline, oops! Time and energy tweaking revolver is time and energy that could be spent doing other things that WILL benefit the totality of the USPSA membership in terms of total members and matches shot.

By some counts, there are 3 million NEW gun owners in the US in the last 6 months. THAT is where the focus of all shooters and shooting organizations should be...getting them out shooting. But, sorry, most of them did not buy Revos.

Edited June 19, 2013 by MarkCO

[Dragon11]

I have no "ins" with anybody of relevance anywhere. I wouldn't even know where to start. I do know this though. I pray that the BOD talks about and votes on the revolver issue this weekend. At this point I'll be happy with whatever ruling they make.

Like a lot of people involved in this topic, every time this issue has been brought up over the past couple years, I get emotionally involved in it. There is no way that USPSA could possibly make everyone happy. The way see it, we all agree on two things. First, we want more revolver shooters to join our ranks. Second, we all like shooting revolvers. Someone make a decision on the darn issue and lets move on with life.

[dcloudy777]

Just thinking out loud here.... Instead of scoring all revolvers minor, why not score them all major (provided they make minor PF)? That would include the .38/.357 guns, without penalizing the 625 shooters.

[alecmc]

Just thinking out loud here.... Instead of scoring all revolvers minor, why not score them all major (provided they make minor PF)? That would include the .38/.357 guns, without penalizing the 625 shooters.

or score all revolvers as minor. let the guys shooting major 625 ease off on the power factor, and level the playing field for the 686 / 38 spl crew.

Edited June 19, 2013 by alecmc

[Dragon11]

Just thinking out loud here.... Instead of scoring all revolvers minor, why not score them all major (provided they make minor PF)? That would include the .38/.357 guns, without penalizing the 625 shooters.

No objection there.... let the guys shooting major 625 ease off on the power factor, and level the playing field for the 686 / 38 spl crew.

This stuff is killing me. Just when I think I've moved on something else gets brought up.....That's been brought up once before and I really like that idea. So how are you going to roll the 8 shot guys into that?

[Carmoney]

Flex, I'm not necessarily advocating those radical ideas I listed in my previous post. They are just ideas (except for the 8-shot provisional thing, which has gained serious traction as a discussion point). My real point was that there are ways that USPSA could act to promote the division.

Here's another radical idea--USPSA could establish a volunteer "Board of Divisions" wherein a representative is appointed or elected for each division, whose mission is to advocate and promote growth in that division. USPSA could provide a reasonable budget for each representative to use, with BOD or executive oversight, for things like marketing, promotion, prizes/awards for a key match series in that division, and so forth.

You give me $25K a year to promote Revolver, and I'll guarantee you that in 4-5 years I will show you a markedly larger and healthier division. Do the same for the other 5 divisions, and you'd be spending only $150K per year for a truly dedicated and passionate marketing effort, inspired and controlled by the people who know and understand the different platforms best.

Edited June 19, 2013 by Carmoney