Spectators Carrying Concealed Ok?

[Nik Habicht]

IMO, that's a very hypocritical rule, which the BOD should change. Nor do I see any reason to expect a competitor to not have a pocket gun, etc on them.

And that opinion's fine -- but USPSA matches run on cold ranges. If I were to discover a USPSA member carrying a hot gun "in their pocket" while competing in a match, a 10.6.1 dq would be the minimum result. Depending on the competitor's reaction, they very well might lose their USPSA membership.....

USPSA runs on cold ranges, precisely because we cater to shooters of differing talents and interests. Not everyone has taken the time to learn all of the various things that must be mastered before carrying a gun. I regularly see competitors who have no idea how to clear a malfunction, or who can't remember to swipe off the safety on a 1911, or who decide the safe table's a fine place to reload mags....

I don't want those folks carrying a hot gun in a match environment....

[Nik Habicht]

IMO, that's a very hypocritical rule, which the BOD should change. Nor do I see any reason to expect a competitor to not have a pocket gun, etc on them.

Just so we're clear, Nik is talking about his home range's BOD rule, not the USPSA BOD. But yes, hypocritical nonetheless. If a person is doing something illegal, that is a different story.

Keep in mind too, that either of those options would indicate that the "delicate conversation" would have gone badly. I've never had anyone turn down a safety request when it was brought to their attention in a polite manner -- and I'm always open to compromise in those situations. If the shooter wants to head over their practice bay, or go home, that's fine. If they'd prefer to stay and watch, then we'll discretely find a place to unload them, and to reload them when they decide it's time to go.....

This isn't hard....

In 15 years I've had exactly two issues go to the club's board of directors -- and both of these were extreme cases....

[Avezorak]

If you are involved in the match, whether you are shooting or not, you need to comply 100% with the USPSA rulebook. If I show up to any place, range, match or otherwise, as long as its legal, I will be carrying quietly. I dont believe in advertising that I am armed, but as long as Im legal, Ill stay hot.

[remoandiris]

IMO, that's a very hypocritical rule, which the BOD should change. Nor do I see any reason to expect a competitor to not have a pocket gun, etc on them.

And that opinion's fine -- but USPSA matches run on cold ranges. If I were to discover a USPSA member carrying a hot gun "in their pocket" while competing in a match, a 10.6.1 dq would be the minimum result. Depending on the competitor's reaction, they very well might lose their USPSA membership.....

USPSA runs on cold ranges, precisely because we cater to shooters of differing talents and interests. Not everyone has taken the time to learn all of the various things that must be mastered before carrying a gun. I regularly see competitors who have no idea how to clear a malfunction, or who can't remember to swipe off the safety on a 1911, or who decide the safe table's a fine place to reload mags....

I don't want those folks carrying a hot gun in a match environment....

Where exactly in the USPSA rulebook does it say matches are held on cold ranges? I'm still looking for a USPSA rule that says spectators can't carry concealed.

I also think it is a VERY SAD day when doing something legal is cause to be dq'd. If you want to try a dq under 10.5.7, maybe. But unsportsmanlike conduct for concealed carry, that is bs.

Edited May 19, 2013 by remoandiris

[partyboy424]

IMO, that's a very hypocritical rule, which the BOD should change. Nor do I see any reason to expect a competitor to not have a pocket gun, etc on them.

And that opinion's fine -- but USPSA matches run on cold ranges. If I were to discover a USPSA member carrying a hot gun "in their pocket" while competing in a match, a 10.6.1 dq would be the minimum result. Depending on the competitor's reaction, they very well might lose their USPSA membership.....

USPSA runs on cold ranges, precisely because we cater to shooters of differing talents and interests. Not everyone has taken the time to learn all of the various things that must be mastered before carrying a gun. I regularly see competitors who have no idea how to clear a malfunction, or who can't remember to swipe off the safety on a 1911, or who decide the safe table's a fine place to reload mags....

I don't want those folks carrying a hot gun in a match environment....

Where exactly in the USPSA rulebook does it say matches are held on cold ranges? I'm still looking for a USPSA rule that says spectators can't carry concealed.

I also think it is a VERY SAD day when doing something legal is cause to be dq'd. If you want to try a dq under 10.5.7, maybe. But unsportsmanlike conduct for concealed carry, that is bs.

Here is all I could find. Again, this is only in the 1995 rulebook (I wonder if there's minutes of meetings or anything that explain why some of this stuff was removed)

§ US 12.01 (iii) COLD RANGES_Will apply at all USPSA Approved, Sanctioned Matches, and Tournaments. (For clarification purposes, a loaded firearm is one found to have a live round in the chamber or a loaded magazine inserted in the gun.)

[sperman]

10.5.13 would be the rule for a DQ, although 10.5.7 covers it pretty well too.

10.5.13 Having a loaded firearm other than when specifically ordered to by the Range Officer.

[Nik Habicht]

IMO, that's a very hypocritical rule, which the BOD should change. Nor do I see any reason to expect a competitor to not have a pocket gun, etc on them.

And that opinion's fine -- but USPSA matches run on cold ranges. If I were to discover a USPSA member carrying a hot gun "in their pocket" while competing in a match, a 10.6.1 dq would be the minimum result. Depending on the competitor's reaction, they very well might lose their USPSA membership.....

USPSA runs on cold ranges, precisely because we cater to shooters of differing talents and interests. Not everyone has taken the time to learn all of the various things that must be mastered before carrying a gun. I regularly see competitors who have no idea how to clear a malfunction, or who can't remember to swipe off the safety on a 1911, or who decide the safe table's a fine place to reload mags....

I don't want those folks carrying a hot gun in a match environment....

Where exactly in the USPSA rulebook does it say matches are held on cold ranges? I'm still looking for a USPSA rule that says spectators can't carry concealed.

I also think it is a VERY SAD day when doing something legal is cause to be dq'd. If you want to try a dq under 10.5.7, maybe. But unsportsmanlike conduct for concealed carry, that is bs.

Legality is irrelevant for purposes of this discussion. USPSA is a private organization -- it can limit match participation, and require that its rules are complied with. As an experienced competitor, I expect you to be familiar with all of USPSA's safety rules. If you were genuinely surprised to discover that you had forgotten to clear/stow a concealed carry gun, I'd be fine with a DQ under 10.5.7 or 10.5.13. If you tell me "Hey, no big deal, it's legal in this state", and I think it's a BS rule, the DQ will be under 10.6.1. Continue to argue or otherwise make it clear that you have no intention of complying with USPSA's safety regulations, then I'd have no choice but to bar you from further match participation at my club, and to inform USPSA HQ as required by rules 6.4.4 and 6.4.5.

The USPSA BOD has in the past terminated the membership of individuals who grossly violated the organization's safety rules.

I've been around this game for 15 years and have never encountered this issue, and I suspect it's unlikely that I will.....

But since we're spitballin' Remo -- do you routinely encounter competitors who are carrying a CCW gun during a match?

[ramairthree]

I honestly don't know what the legal recourse is if they politely decline to walk away.

If they're visiting the club, they can be asked to leave, and if they don't comply can be charged with trespassing....

If they're a club member, it goes to the Board of Directors....

I am talking about a range member if they did this at my local range, and not knowing what the recourse would be at that moment on the range. He is not trespassing and in compliance with the rules of the range.

Addressing it after the fact,

I suspect the result of it coming to a vote at a membership meeting would not come out good.

I think it would come out "the action pistol guys can take their match elsewhere if they are required to interfere with the constitutional rights of the range members not in the match." Sort of like the post about the range owner in FL turned out.

[Nik Habicht]

Where exactly in the USPSA rulebook does it say matches are held on cold ranges? I'm still looking for a USPSA rule that says spectators can't carry concealed.

I also think it is a VERY SAD day when doing something legal is cause to be dq'd. If you want to try a dq under 10.5.7, maybe. But unsportsmanlike conduct for concealed carry, that is bs.

Here is all I could find. Again, this is only in the 1995 rulebook (I wonder if there's minutes of meetings or anything that explain why some of this stuff was removed)

§ US 12.01 (iii) COLD RANGES_Will apply at all USPSA Approved, Sanctioned Matches, and Tournaments. (For clarification purposes, a loaded firearm is one found to have a live round in the chamber or a loaded magazine inserted in the gun.)

Here's where:

2.5 Unloading/Loading Station

2.5.1 If it is possible that some competitors arriving at a range where a USPSA match is being held may be in possession of a loaded firearm on their person (e.g. law enforcement officers, persons duly authorized to carry a loaded firearm, etc.), match organizers should provide an Unloading/Loading Station to enable such competitors to safely unload their firearms prior to entering the range, and to safely load their firearms again on departure from the range. The Unloading/Loading Station should be conveniently located outside the entrance to the range(or outside the portion of the range allocated to the USPSA match), it should be clearly sign-marked and it must include a suitable impact zone.

2.5.2 Where no Unloading/Loading station is provided, a competitor who arrives at a match in possession of a loaded firearm and proceeds immediately to a match official for the express purpose of safely unloading the firearm shall not be subject to disqualification per the provisions of Rule 10.5.13.

Why would we need this language, if USPSA matches aren't run on a cold range?

5.2 Holsters and Other Competitor Equipment

5.2.1 Carry and Storage – Except when within the boundaries of a safety area, or when under the supervision and direct command of a Range Officer, competitors must carry their handguns unloaded in a gun case, gun bag or in a holster securely attached to a belt on their person (see Rule 10.5.1).

5.2.2 Competitors carrying their handgun in a holster must have an empty magazine well, and the hammer or striker must be de-cocked. Anyone found in violation of this rule will be immediately escorted by a Range Officer to a suitable range or safety area where appropriate corrective action shall be made.

5.2.1. and 5.2.2 continue the theme of competitor's guns being unloaded.

7.1.6 Range Master (“RM”) – has overall authority over all persons and activities within the entire range, including range safety, the operation of all courses of fire and the application of these rules. All match disqualifications and appeals to arbitration must be brought to his attention. The Range Master is usually appointed by and works with the Match Director, however, in respect of USPSA sanctioned Level III and Nationals matches, the appointment of the Range Master is subject to the prior written approval of the Director of NROI.

7.1.6 puts the RM in charge of all persons and activities within the range -- so it's his call. He/She is authorized to impose a cold range on anyone within the confines.

10.5 Match Disqualification – Unsafe Gun Handling

Examples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to:

10.5.13 Having a loaded firearm other than when specifically ordered to by the Range Officer

10.5.13 makes the penalty clear for competitor's discovered to be in possession of a loaded gun, outside of the scope of having been director to load by an RO.....

[Nik Habicht]

I honestly don't know what the legal recourse is if they politely decline to walk away.

If they're visiting the club, they can be asked to leave, and if they don't comply can be charged with trespassing....

If they're a club member, it goes to the Board of Directors....

I am talking about a range member if they did this at my local range, and not knowing what the recourse would be at that moment on the range. He is not trespassing and in compliance with the rules of the range.

Addressing it after the fact,

I suspect the result of it coming to a vote at a membership meeting would not come out good.

I think it would come out "the action pistol guys can take their match elsewhere if they are required to interfere with the constitutional rights of the range members not in the match." Sort of like the post about the range owner in FL turned out.

I know how my club's BOD looks at the issue from a liability standpoint -- they pretty much think that we are the shooters walking closest to the edge of what is safe, when compared with the stand and shoot disciplines. So when an action pistol match director goes to the board with a safety issue involving another club member's behavior at an action pistol match, they'll listen to both sides, and come down on the side of the match officials every time....

And while they're as pro 2nd Amendment as anyone I've ever met, they're also serious about protecting the club's ability to remain open, and are primarily primarily concerned with ensuring the safety of all persons on the range grounds. They've been awfully good at balancing those sometimes diverse interests....

[Sarge]

Amazing how some can get so wound up over a simple question and break it all down to a violation of somebody's constitutional rights. Come on! Everybody who shoots a gun is a supporter of the second amendment to some degree. I think NIK lays things out real well. No question at all in his logic and explanation.

BUT

The original question was about a spectator carrying a loaded gun. It seems there are two different kinds of clubs, Clubs that are USPSA clubs and clubs that are clubs that hold USPSA matches. For instance our club is a member club that holds monthly USPSA matches. I as the MD, my RO's, or any other official of our match have absolutely no authority or power over a club member(spectator) anywhere on the grounds except in the area of the match. That being said our club in it's entirety is a cold range. There are absolutely no loaded guns allowed on the property unless they are being used at a designated firing point or in a match etc. In short, you are not allowed to carry on the property unless you are a cop in the performance of your duties. When that sign went up some members were so bent out of shape that they left the club forever and that reminds me of the direction this thread went. Believe it or not there are bigger pictures than just our second amendment rights. Such as liability or worse losing a club.

Those of you who shoot at strictly USPSA clubs probably live by different rules. But regardless of what rules your club may have you can not possibly DQ a non competitor.

In my case if I learned of a spectator carrying I would offer to clear his gun for him or offer to escort him to the exit gate. And as luck would have it I'm also a board member so if he was a club member I would get to deal with it all over again at the next meeting.

[remoandiris]

But since we're spitballin' Remo -- do you routinely encounter competitors who are carrying a CCW gun during a match?

Never. That is the point of concealed carry...you don't know who is doing it.

BTW, you wrote you'd dq under 10.6 for concealed carry, not for the competitor behaving badly. You didn't clarify until another post. I agree with a 10.6 dq for a competitor behaving badly.

Edited May 20, 2013 by remoandiris

[SoCalNoMore]

I know it's probably been asked but I've searched and looked til I'm tired so....

We're in the process of running a stage at a club match and a guy walks over to watch because he's interested in playing the game but obviously not today because he has no gear on. The RO jokingly says "where's your gun?", spectator dude says "right here" and pats a concealed carry gun under his shirt. After a brief ruh roh moment, one of the other shooters (also an RO) takes him onto the cleared COF and has him ULSC and re-holster an empty gun. It's a cold range and there are no signs posted as such but what's the call here? He's not a competitor so....

And, where does he go hot again? I have my own ideas on this but is there anything official?

According to my lawyer wife, once a person is known to have a firearm it is no longer "concealed" and all rules for "concealed firearms" no longer apply. Maybe this should be taken into account? I'm not sure :-/

[retarmyaviator]

Legality is irrelevant for purposes of this discussion. USPSA is a private organization -- it can limit match participation, and require that its rules are complied with. As an experienced competitor, I expect you to be familiar with all of USPSA's safety rules. If you were genuinely surprised to discover that you had forgotten to clear/stow a concealed carry gun, I'd be fine with a DQ under 10.5.7 or 10.5.13. If you tell me "Hey, no big deal, it's legal in this state", and I think it's a BS rule, the DQ will be under 10.6.1. Continue to argue or otherwise make it clear that you have no intention of complying with USPSA's safety regulations, then I'd have no choice but to bar you from further match participation at my club, and to inform USPSA HQ as required by rules 6.4.4 and 6.4.5.

The USPSA BOD has in the past terminated the membership of individuals who grossly violated the organization's safety rules.

I've been around this game for 15 years and have never encountered this issue, and I suspect it's unlikely that I will.....

But since we're spitballin' Remo -- do you routinely encounter competitors who are carrying a CCW gun during a match?

Nik, excellent post.

In reference to your question about CCW by competitors, I caught a competitor carrying concealed during a match a couple of years ago using an ankle holster . It left me with the impression that if a person is that paranoid they probably didn't need to be at the match in the first place.

Edited May 20, 2013 by retarmyaviator

[sperman]

What would be quicker, drawing from the ankle holster or drawing the gun off your belt and charging it with a mag off your belt?

I've never felt unprotected at a USPSA match. I've got a gun on my hip and 50+ rounds of ammunition readily available. There are also 10+ other guys in close proximity in the same condition.

[BillD]

Amazing how some can get so wound up over a simple question and break it all down to a violation of somebody's constitutional rights. Come on! Everybody who shoots a gun is a supporter of the second amendment to some degree. I think NIK lays things out real well. No question at all in his logic and explanation.

BUT

The original question was about a spectator carrying a loaded gun. It seems there are two different kinds of clubs, Clubs that are USPSA clubs and clubs that are clubs that hold USPSA matches. For instance our club is a member club that holds monthly USPSA matches. I as the MD, my RO's, or any other official of our match have absolutely no authority or power over a club member(spectator) anywhere on the grounds except in the area of the match. That being said our club in it's entirety is a cold range. There are absolutely no loaded guns allowed on the property unless they are being used at a designated firing point or in a match etc. In short, you are not allowed to carry on the property unless you are a cop in the performance of your duties. When that sign went up some members were so bent out of shape that they left the club forever and that reminds me of the direction this thread went. Believe it or not there are bigger pictures than just our second amendment rights. Such as liability or worse losing a club.

Those of you who shoot at strictly USPSA clubs probably live by different rules. But regardless of what rules your club may have you can not possibly DQ a non competitor.

In my case if I learned of a spectator carrying I would offer to clear his gun for him or offer to escort him to the exit gate. And as luck would have it I'm also a board member so if he was a club member I would get to deal with it all over again at the next meeting.

Bigger issues than our 2nd Amendment rights? I don't think so.

[motosapiens]

Concealed is concealed. If I do not know about it I cannot do anything about it..

Yup. In this part of the world, if you carry openly (and admitting you are carrying is pretty much the same thing), you will be asked to unload your weapon. If you carry concealed, no one will know or care.

They had a safety table at the entrance labeled for 'open carry' to please remove magazines. I personally see no problem at all with spectators carrying concealed weapons. Of course I live in a state where carrying concealed is routine, even in bars, restaurants, sporting events, church, state government buildings, and other places where less-free citizens of less-free states are not allowed to defend themselves.

Obviously, this only applies to spectators. Any competitor should not be carrying a loaded weapon of any kind unless instructed to make ready by the RO.

Edited May 20, 2013 by motosapiens

[motosapiens]

What would be quicker, drawing from the ankle holster or drawing the gun off your belt and charging it with a mag off your belt?

I've never felt unprotected at a USPSA match. I've got a gun on my hip and 50+ rounds of ammunition readily available. There are also 10+ other guys in close proximity in the same condition.

That's great. No one is suggesting that you carry a concealed weapon if you don't want to. I personally would rather people carried them than left them locked in their cars, whether they're parked at a shooting event, mall, strip club, hockey game, or garage sale.

[Sarge]

I was referring to the club's board of directors. If our insurance carrier said to not allow CCW or lose coverage then we are going to not allow CCW. There more important things than right to carry in this instance such as having a place to shoot

[gose]

Sure, that covers competitors, and it makes sense. You don't want a competitor to be walking around with a loaded firearm while not competing. It's begging for a ND, and ROs should be able to immediately determine the condition of any firearm they see.

However, a concealed firearms, legally carried by a non-competitor, is none of the RO's business. As long as it stays concealed. Once it's visible then there is potential for confusion among competitors, etc. My local club has a rule that if you come on property with a concealed handgun then it needs to stay concealed until you leave.

My club has a barrel to unload your handgun into and a big sign that says that it's a cold range, however, you can still carry the unloaded gun concealed.

I dont really care if youre a cop, competitor, or spectator, if I see a loaded concealed handgun or if you tell me youre carrying a loaded gun, I'm going to ask you to head over there and unload your gun before youre welcome back.

[Ssanders224]

Legality is irrelevant for purposes of this discussion. USPSA is a private organization -- it can limit match participation, and require that its rules are complied with. As an experienced competitor, I expect you to be familiar with all of USPSA's safety rules. If you were genuinely surprised to discover that you had forgotten to clear/stow a concealed carry gun, I'd be fine with a DQ under 10.5.7 or 10.5.13. If you tell me "Hey, no big deal, it's legal in this state", and I think it's a BS rule, the DQ will be under 10.6.1. Continue to argue or otherwise make it clear that you have no intention of complying with USPSA's safety regulations, then I'd have no choice but to bar you from further match participation at my club, and to inform USPSA HQ as required by rules 6.4.4 and 6.4.5.

The USPSA BOD has in the past terminated the membership of individuals who grossly violated the organization's safety rules.

I've been around this game for 15 years and have never encountered this issue, and I suspect it's unlikely that I will.....

But since we're spitballin' Remo -- do you routinely encounter competitors who are carrying a CCW gun during a match?

Nik, excellent post.

In reference to your question about CCW by competitors, I caught a competitor carrying concealed during a match a couple of years ago using an ankle holster . It left me with the impression that if a person is that paranoid they probably didn't need to be at the match in the first place.

It bothers me that you would pass judgement on someone as being "paranoid" because they are carrying a concealed handgun.

I guess it seems a bit hypocritical for someone competing in a practical pistol shooting event to consider a concealed weopon as a sign of paranoia.

[motosapiens]

Legality is irrelevant for purposes of this discussion. USPSA is a private organization -- it can limit match participation, and require that its rules are complied with. As an experienced competitor, I expect you to be familiar with all of USPSA's safety rules. If you were genuinely surprised to discover that you had forgotten to clear/stow a concealed carry gun, I'd be fine with a DQ under 10.5.7 or 10.5.13. If you tell me "Hey, no big deal, it's legal in this state", and I think it's a BS rule, the DQ will be under 10.6.1. Continue to argue or otherwise make it clear that you have no intention of complying with USPSA's safety regulations, then I'd have no choice but to bar you from further match participation at my club, and to inform USPSA HQ as required by rules 6.4.4 and 6.4.5.

The USPSA BOD has in the past terminated the membership of individuals who grossly violated the organization's safety rules.

I've been around this game for 15 years and have never encountered this issue, and I suspect it's unlikely that I will.....

But since we're spitballin' Remo -- do you routinely encounter competitors who are carrying a CCW gun during a match?

Nik, excellent post.

In reference to your question about CCW by competitors, I caught a competitor carrying concealed during a match a couple of years ago using an ankle holster . It left me with the impression that if a person is that paranoid they probably didn't need to be at the match in the first place.

It bothers me that you would pass judgement on someone as being "paranoid" because they are carrying a concealed handgun.

I guess it seems a bit hypocritical for someone competing in a practical pistol shooting event to consider a concealed weopon as a sign of paranoia.

Since a competitor carrying concealed weapon is expressly prohibited by the rules, I think someone would have to feel pretty strongly about it to knowingly break those rules. It seems a bit paranoid to me too. It's a completely different situation than a spectator carrying a concealed weapon.

[RangerTrace]

Whats the difference between concealed carry and a uniformed Cop showing up to walk around and check out the match? We've had Texas Highway Patrolmen show up at the Double Tap Ranch several times. Porter never seemed to care about their loaded/holstered Sigs.

[retarmyaviator]

Legality is irrelevant for purposes of this discussion. USPSA is a private organization -- it can limit match participation, and require that its rules are complied with. As an experienced competitor, I expect you to be familiar with all of USPSA's safety rules. If you were genuinely surprised to discover that you had forgotten to clear/stow a concealed carry gun, I'd be fine with a DQ under 10.5.7 or 10.5.13. If you tell me "Hey, no big deal, it's legal in this state", and I think it's a BS rule, the DQ will be under 10.6.1. Continue to argue or otherwise make it clear that you have no intention of complying with USPSA's safety regulations, then I'd have no choice but to bar you from further match participation at my club, and to inform USPSA HQ as required by rules 6.4.4 and 6.4.5.

The USPSA BOD has in the past terminated the membership of individuals who grossly violated the organization's safety rules.

I've been around this game for 15 years and have never encountered this issue, and I suspect it's unlikely that I will.....

But since we're spitballin' Remo -- do you routinely encounter competitors who are carrying a CCW gun during a match?

Nik, excellent post.

In reference to your question about CCW by competitors, I caught a competitor carrying concealed during a match a couple of years ago using an ankle holster . It left me with the impression that if a person is that paranoid they probably didn't need to be at the match in the first place.

It bothers me that you would pass judgement on someone as being "paranoid" because they are carrying a concealed handgun.

I guess it seems a bit hypocritical for someone competing in a practical pistol shooting event to consider a concealed weopon as a sign of paranoia.

Most of the ones I meet like that are a bit paranoid so it isn't hard for me to pass judgment on them at all.

[bdpaz]

Skipping over the confusion of people talking about competitors while replying to others who are talking about spectators and vice versa, can we clarify the original question? It was stated as "...It's a cold range and there are no signs posted as such..." so is the problem that it is a range rule that is not posted, or is that a typo and the range is posted as cold? Either way, it would seem that it is a range problem rather than a USPSA problem.