Spectators Carrying Concealed Ok?

[Jadeslade]

He wasn't a LEO and I'm assuming he had a permit but he didn't have a problem with the unload thing, he actually spent the entire day pasting and learning. More than some on the squad did...

I did have this thought, this happened in FL so does FL law allow concealed carry at a sporting event or public gathering? I don't remember from the CC classes but I know GA law doesn't so there would be a legal issue there. Or is a shooting match not considered a sporting event?

No, it does not. Unless it is an event related to firearms. Florida Firearms, Law, Use & Ownership, Seventh Edition, Jon H. Gutmacher, Esq., copyright 2012. Excellent book by well known Second Amendment and Criminal Lawyer in Winter Park. The link posted above by remoandiris is just about qualifications for CWP.

[Nik Habicht]

Bigger issues than our 2nd Amendment rights? I don't think so.

Do you have second amendment rights on someone else's property? I don't think so.....

There are limits to everything, and infringing on someone else's rights is definitely one of the places where the line gets rightfully drawn....

[Nik Habicht]

Whats the difference between concealed carry and a uniformed Cop showing up to walk around and check out the match? We've had Texas Highway Patrolmen show up at the Double Tap Ranch several times. Porter never seemed to care about their loaded/holstered Sigs.

Two quick thoughts: I'm relatively sure that if I ask the cop about the handgun in his holster, he's not likely to whip it out so that I can look at it -- the same cannot always be said for other gun toters. And there's a big difference between a cop on the job and a bystander. I've had township cops who were also range members swing through on patrol, so generally I can't remember having seen them leave their cruisers....

So this hasn't been an issue. Neither have spectators carrying guns, or competitors carrying loaded backup guns -- though one of the local clubs made an announcement during every match walkthrough for years after a nationally known firearms scribe allegedly used a J-frame to finish a stage once.....

That happened so long ago though, that I have no idea if he was disqualified -- predates my time in the sport....

[Nik Habicht]

Skipping over the confusion of people talking about competitors while replying to others who are talking about spectators and vice versa, can we clarify the original question? It was stated as "...It's a cold range and there are no signs posted as such..." so is the problem that it is a range rule that is not posted, or is that a typo and the range is posted as cold? Either way, it would seem that it is a range problem rather than a USPSA problem.

It could be. For USPSA matches I expect members/experienced competitors to know the rules. New folks are always asked if they're carrying, or if they brought a loaded gun, or if one of their mags was brought to range in a bagged handgun -- but I'm asking those questions so I can manage the situation without a DQ....

I might want them to load their mags for a safety check -- but I don't want them retrieving the mag in the gun just anywhere. So it's a matter of protection prior to education...

[sarnburg]

The matches we run only use a portion of the bays available at the range. We enforce the cold range on all of the bays used for the USPSA match.

Most people are very understanding when the concept of a cold range is explained to them. They are happy to clear their firearm and get a personal tour through the stages with an explanation on how the match works. I treat this as a recruitment and education opportunity.

Scott

[Cardinal]

Must admit, I'm a bit puzzled...

If carrying a loaded gun concealed is okay, why bother with "unload, show clear" at the end of the stage? Why not simply make it "reload if necessary, and holster"?

Surely its a matter of either or. All guns loaded or none.

[motosapiens]

Must admit, I'm a bit puzzled...

If carrying a loaded gun concealed is okay, why bother with "unload, show clear" at the end of the stage? Why not simply make it "reload if necessary, and holster"?

Surely its a matter of either or. All guns loaded or none.

The OP was about spectators. You are talking about competitors. There is no confusion about the situation with competitors.

Spectators are a different matter, and generally subject to state laws and local policy.

[remoandiris]

No, it does not. Unless it is an event related to firearms. Florida Firearms, Law, Use & Ownership, Seventh Edition, Jon H. Gutmacher, Esq., copyright 2012. Excellent book by well known Second Amendment and Criminal Lawyer in Winter Park. The link posted above by remoandiris is just about qualifications for CWP.

Actually the link I posted is the Fla statutes for concealed carry. It states where you can and cannot carry as well as lots of other stuff, not just qualifications for concealed carry. Keep in mind the statute I cited says "PROFESSIONAL" sporting events.

[Jadeslade]

No, it does not. Unless it is an event related to firearms. Florida Firearms, Law, Use & Ownership, Seventh Edition, Jon H. Gutmacher, Esq., copyright 2012. Excellent book by well known Second Amendment and Criminal Lawyer in Winter Park. The link posted above by remoandiris is just about qualifications for CWP.

Actually the link I posted is the Fla statutes for concealed carry. It states where you can and cannot carry as well as lots of other stuff, not just qualifications for concealed carry. Keep in mind the statute I cited says "PROFESSIONAL" sporting events.

[Jadeslade]

No, it does not. Unless it is an event related to firearms. Florida Firearms, Law, Use & Ownership, Seventh Edition, Jon H. Gutmacher, Esq., copyright 2012. Excellent book by well known Second Amendment and Criminal Lawyer in Winter Park. The link posted above by remoandiris is just about qualifications for CWP.

Actually the link I posted is the Fla statutes for concealed carry. It states where you can and cannot carry as well as lots of other stuff, not just qualifications for concealed carry. Keep in mind the statute I cited says "PROFESSIONAL" sporting events.

[Jadeslade]

Check your link. It does not lead you to where and where you can not carry. This isn't a spitting contest. Ok? I have a problem with spectators carrying concealed. I shoot a lot, a lot of matches where at least 75% of the competitors are law enforcement. Usually federal. And I feel really safe at those matches. Our home range, where Kend and I shoot is a cold range and posted in a lot of places. This is a private range. It's a gray area. I have been muzzled enough by new shooters, old shooters in a bad frame of mind, and morons. I don't want spectators with guns. I have enough trouble watching the shooters. I also am not particularly happy about Texas Rangers on duty wandering around while they are on duty with their weapons. Or any police officer. What is the reason? If its curiosity, come when you are off duty. If not, are they on lunch? Are they looking for criminals. Hard to justify. It's a safe sport, when club and USPSA rules are followed.

[Sarge]

Whats the difference between concealed carry and a uniformed Cop showing up to walk around and check out the match? We've had Texas Highway Patrolmen show up at the Double Tap Ranch several times. Porter never seemed to care about their loaded/holstered Sigs.

Our club does not allow LEO to carry loaded unless they are there in the performance of their duties. They would be asked to unload.

[RangerTrace]

Whats the difference between concealed carry and a uniformed Cop showing up to walk around and check out the match? We've had Texas Highway Patrolmen show up at the Double Tap Ranch several times. Porter never seemed to care about their loaded/holstered Sigs.

Our club does not allow LEO to carry loaded unless they are there in the performance of their duties. They would be asked to unload.

For the sake of argument, if it's during their duty hours, they are in the performance of their duties whether eating lunch, driving or arresting criminals. FWIW, I worked security at last years Double Tap Championships. I did catch a few odd stares, but as far as I know, no one complained.

[Sarge]

I think the jist of the rule is they would be there because they were called, etc.

[motosapiens]

I have been muzzled enough by new shooters, old shooters in a bad frame of mind, and morons. I don't want spectators with guns.

That seems like a bit of a bizarre non-sequitur to me. Are you expecting any concealed-carriers to whip out their guns and start playing with them?

Personally, the more law-abiding concealed-carriers there are around me, the happier I am. Perhaps that makes me a redneck or something.

Edited May 21, 2013 by motosapiens

[Avezorak]

Do all of you guys who are so nervous about being around licensed CHL holders with concealed handguns, feel the same off the range? I fail to see the difference if a person is not involved in the match. Legal carry is legal carry. In Texas, you can carry anywhere except prohibited areas and 30.06 posted areas. After that its an issue of criminal trespass, if you are asked to leave and wont. So why is carrying at the range so verboten?

[bdpaz]

It sounds like some of you are trying to bypass the "treat all guns as loaded" rule by attempting to control when & where loaded guns are allowed. What if the reason "I have been muzzled enough by new shooters, old shooters in a bad frame of mind, and morons." is because they aren't careful because they are "unloaded"? I mean, after all, the only place a gun is loaded is when shooting a USPSA stage - right? I have seen plenty of examples of rookies at USPSA matches handling their guns when they shouldn't, but they haven't muzzled anyone and I believe that's because guns are common here and they really do treat them as if they are always loaded. I believe the mindset that you can control when guns are loaded by making rules is detrimental to firearms safety.

And in what possible scenario does a LEO suddenly become a hazard by showing up at a shooting range as a spectator with the same firearm he carries (loaded!) the rest of the day?

[Sarge]

I have been muzzled enough by new shooters, old shooters in a bad frame of mind, and morons. I don't want spectators with guns.

That seems like a bit of a bizarre non-sequitur to me. Are you expecting any concealed-carriers to whip out their guns and start playing with them?

Personally, the more law-abiding concealed-carriers there are around me, the happier I am. Perhaps that makes me a redneck or something.

Funny story. We were doing sign up for a match last year when a very "new" looking shooter showed up. Somebody noticed a mag in the gun and before anybody could say a word he whipped it out of his IWB holster and proceeded to take the mag out at the registration table. We stopped him before he got to the point of racking the gun. Needless to say about a hundred people yelled stop and he thought we were weird and asked if we had never seen a loaded gun before. He said it was his carry gun and it should be loaded. He was DQ'd and went home. Don't recall ever seeing him again and that did not my feelings one bit.

[RangerTrace]

I have been muzzled enough by new shooters, old shooters in a bad frame of mind, and morons. I don't want spectators with guns.

That seems like a bit of a bizarre non-sequitur to me. Are you expecting any concealed-carriers to whip out their guns and start playing with them?

Personally, the more law-abiding concealed-carriers there are around me, the happier I am. Perhaps that makes me a redneck or something.

Funny story. We were doing sign up for a match last year when a very "new" looking shooter showed up. Somebody noticed a mag in the gun and before anybody could say a word he whipped it out of his IWB holster and proceeded to take the mag out at the registration table. We stopped him before he got to the point of racking the gun. Needless to say about a hundred people yelled stop and he thought we were weird and asked if we had never seen a loaded gun before. He said it was his carry gun and it should be loaded. He was DQ'd and went home. Don't recall ever seeing him again and that did not my feelings one bit.

Sarge,

There is nothing funny about that story to me. I get what you are saying and I love the fact that USPSA has strict rules that help to keep our shooters safe. But, when I hear you say that it doesn't bother you to DQ a brand new shooter who probably never read the rules and tried to join our membership....then I think YOU failed us. There has to be a slight "breaking in" period. Because we can't expect new shooters to know all of the rules. So when they show up, we HAVE to give them special attention to help them be safe, have a good time and enjoy their experience.

Of course this is simply my opinion.

[bdpaz]

I have been muzzled enough by new shooters, old shooters in a bad frame of mind, and morons. I don't want spectators with guns.

That seems like a bit of a bizarre non-sequitur to me. Are you expecting any concealed-carriers to whip out their guns and start playing with them?

Personally, the more law-abiding concealed-carriers there are around me, the happier I am. Perhaps that makes me a redneck or something.

Funny story. We were doing sign up for a match last year when a very "new" looking shooter showed up. Somebody noticed a mag in the gun and before anybody could say a word he whipped it out of his IWB holster and proceeded to take the mag out at the registration table. We stopped him before he got to the point of racking the gun. Needless to say about a hundred people yelled stop and he thought we were weird and asked if we had never seen a loaded gun before. He said it was his carry gun and it should be loaded. He was DQ'd and went home. Don't recall ever seeing him again and that did not my feelings one bit.

I wasn't there and I have seen seen plenty of dangerous gun dorks but we're missing some significant details here: was his finger off the trigger and was the gun pointed in a safe direction? I'd guess that one or both conditions weren't met and if not, he was unsafe and deserved to be sent home regardless of anyone's rules. But if he was controlling the gun safely, was it really more dangerous than unloading in a safe area? I'm not excusing his violation of USPSA rules and he should have been DQ'd (for handling the gun at the registration table, not for handling a loaded gun there!), but while USPSA rules may ensure safety, following different procedures isn't by definition unsafe.

Edited May 22, 2013 by bdpaz

[Poppa Bear]

How you approach these situations can make a big difference in how the contact plays out. In Sarge's example I would have gently questioned the new shooter about the presence of the holstered gun, and warned in advance to not handle it. I would have then explained that we had specific rules that dealt with the handling, unloading and securing of CCW/loaded guns as well as guns used during the match. If the shooter was receptive to the interaction and followed procedures to unload and secure the weapon then we have no harm no foul. If he immediately drew the gun to unload it or performed any other unsafe action that demonstrated a lack of understanding for proper gun handling while in the presence of several others then it would be a DQ and an escort off the property.

If the initial interaction was a person saying "Hey you cannot have a loaded gun here" I could see a new and uneducated shooter attempting to unload it right where they were standing.

It is a judgement call that has to be made by the people on the scene, but how we deal with a spectator/ new shooter with a CCW can make the difference in whether they come back or not.

[Sarge]

I have been muzzled enough by new shooters, old shooters in a bad frame of mind, and morons. I don't want spectators with guns.

That seems like a bit of a bizarre non-sequitur to me. Are you expecting any concealed-carriers to whip out their guns and start playing with them?

Personally, the more law-abiding concealed-carriers there are around me, the happier I am. Perhaps that makes me a redneck or something.

Funny story. We were doing sign up for a match last year when a very "new" looking shooter showed up. Somebody noticed a mag in the gun and before anybody could say a word he whipped it out of his IWB holster and proceeded to take the mag out at the registration table. We stopped him before he got to the point of racking the gun. Needless to say about a hundred people yelled stop and he thought we were weird and asked if we had never seen a loaded gun before. He said it was his carry gun and it should be loaded. He was DQ'd and went home. Don't recall ever seeing him again and that did not my feelings one bit.

I wasn't there and I have seen seen plenty of dangerous gun dorks but we're missing some significant details here: was his finger off the trigger and was the gun pointed in a safe direction? I'd guess that one or both conditions weren't met and if not, he was unsafe and deserved to be sent home regardless of anyone's rules. But if he was controlling the gun safely, was it really more dangerous than unloading in a safe area? I'm not excusing his violation of USPSA rules and he should have been DQ'd (for handling the gun at the registration table, not for handling a loaded gun there!), but while USPSA rules may ensure safety, following different procedures isn't by definition unsafe.

I'll let you figure this out for yourself. He was surrounded by a whole match worth of shooters standing at the registration table when he pulled the gun out.

[Sarge]

I have been muzzled enough by new shooters, old shooters in a bad frame of mind, and morons. I don't want spectators with guns.

That seems like a bit of a bizarre non-sequitur to me. Are you expecting any concealed-carriers to whip out their guns and start playing with them?

Personally, the more law-abiding concealed-carriers there are around me, the happier I am. Perhaps that makes me a redneck or something.

Funny story. We were doing sign up for a match last year when a very "new" looking shooter showed up. Somebody noticed a mag in the gun and before anybody could say a word he whipped it out of his IWB holster and proceeded to take the mag out at the registration table. We stopped him before he got to the point of racking the gun. Needless to say about a hundred people yelled stop and he thought we were weird and asked if we had never seen a loaded gun before. He said it was his carry gun and it should be loaded. He was DQ'd and went home. Don't recall ever seeing him again and that did not my feelings one bit.

Sarge,

There is nothing funny about that story to me. I get what you are saying and I love the fact that USPSA has strict rules that help to keep our shooters safe. But, when I hear you say that it doesn't bother you to DQ a brand new shooter who probably never read the rules and tried to join our membership....then I think YOU failed us. There has to be a slight "breaking in" period. Because we can't expect new shooters to know all of the rules. So when they show up, we HAVE to give them special attention to help them be safe, have a good time and enjoy their experience.

Of course this is simply my opinion.

I failed nobody. I kept the rest of the competitors safe.

[LuisToledo]

This is a silly argument. There is nothing in the rules that governs armed spectators and trying to regulate guns that are hidden by enforcing rules on people you, by definition, don't know are armed, is silly.

If the MD or range master doesn't want concealed firearms around that he/she doesn't know about, post signs prohibiting them. In most States, that makes it illegal to carry concealed on the premises. Concealed permit holders are notoriously law abiding, so you will either get compliance, or fewer spectators.

Edited May 22, 2013 by LuisToledo

[Jadeslade]

If you are a spectator and you feel the need to show me your concealed weapon, which is now not concealed, I'm going to figure there is something wrong with you and get the MD to come over and straighten it out. I think Kend did the right thing by explaining things and getting the guy in shape. As far as a non sequitor, your non sequitor is my poetic license. If you want to come watch a match with a concealed weapon and I don't know about it-I'm not worried. Personally, I find watching a match really boring if I'm not shooting it. To each his own. If you come to a match where it states at the entrance that this is a cold range , I expect you to lock that gun in the car and leave it there. It's kind of like being on a ball field-the first thing you do is find the ball and keep your eye on it. If you don't you may get hit in the head with it. I almost always watch the shooter, even if out of the corner of my eye-I think most people do. I'm not sure why a match needs armed guards. The only place I have seen that is in Texas at the Larue 3 Gun match. It may have been because the Governor was there. I like police and Texas Rangers, but if they are on regular duty and just hanging out at a match-they are not on the job. It's hard to rationalize. In any case the original post was how to handle a loaded weapon that is not concealed. At a private range. For a spectator. It's a safe sport, if the rules and common sense are followed.