Robert McMahan Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 I'm just getting started shooting handguns and I've joined my local USPSA club and I've shot my first match which was really fun. I have a Glock 35 (40 cal.), which I just bought. I've shot about 2000 rounds through it and I can't hit the broad side of a barn. I consider myself a pretty good shot with a rifle and a shotgun. I also have a 22 cal. Mark II Ruger pistol that I shoot very well , at least by my own standards. I'm almost positive that the problem with the Glock is that for the life of me I can't quit flinching. The others in the club have worked with me and I have Brian's book and I can't get out of it. Here's what I've done so far at the suggestion of others to try and remedy this problem: 1. I set at home most every night and dry fire at the TV slowly pressing the trigger. 2. I have people hand me the gun not knowing if it's loaded or not and I flinch every time when I dry fire it. 3. I practice slowly pressing the trigger to get a "surprise" shot. 4. I'm using the pad of my finger rather than the first joint. 5. I've tried various grips to include the equal pressure from both hands, soft grip that Brian describes in his book. 6. I've tried reciting the Pledge of Allegiance or something else just before shooting to get my mind off the firing of the pistol. All to no avail. I have shot several of the other member's single action pistols all with a lighter trigger and I can almost instantly shoot much better. Not as good as with my Ruger but much better than with the Glock. Most of the advice I get is to stay with the Glock and you'll work through it. I'm beginning to wonder. I'm beginning to think that the further I have to pull the trigger with the Glocks long trigger pull, the more "antsy" I get and the more I begin to anticipate whereas with the lighter triggers on the single action guns the shot goes off before I have time to start anticipating. I've always been a good athlete and I've got pretty good hand eye coordination but this is about to get the best of me and it's starting to not be fun and I'm starting to dread shooting when I had such high hopes in the beginning that this would be something I would enjoy. As expensive as these pistols are I don't want to just keep stabbing around in the dark after the right gun when I may already have the right gun. I need some good advice here, please and I'm certainly not asking you to agree with me. Also, are there some people who just never get over flinching and are never able to shoot a major caliber pistol? Call me lost and frustrated in Oklahoma. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 3. I practice slowly pressing the trigger to get a "surprise" shot. Have you worked on this in live fire? The cure might be learning to shoot groups with your Glock. BTW, welcome to the forums!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert McMahan Posted September 28, 2004 Author Share Posted September 28, 2004 Skywalker, Thanks for the reply. What do you mean by "shooting groups". From a rest? Standing? At paper, I assume? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 Just remember this. If you sights are on the target when the bullet leaves the barrel, it is IMPOSSIBLE to miss. Are you calling those missed shots? Get our host's book and read it...it will be totally invaluable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert McMahan Posted September 28, 2004 Author Share Posted September 28, 2004 Jake, Thanks for the reply. I've got Brian's book. I've read about a third of it. I skipped over to the section on flinching and read it too. What do you mean by "calling the missed shots"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 There are a lot of things that could be happening here ... you really need someone who is good at diagnosing marksmanship problems watching you shoot and helping your correct any obvious mistakes. Do your shots consistently go in the same place when you miss? If so, where they hit can shed some light on what you might be doing. There are a lot of "common mistakes" that people make that typically put the round in the same general vicinity, so knowing where you're hitting is very important. What kind of grip are you using? Are you moving your trigger finger without moving the rest of the fingers on your strong hand? You might try using your support hand for the majority of your "gripping" so that you can minimize the chance of sympathetic movement by your other fingers, which can cause the gun to move after you pull the trigger, but before the bullet leaves the barrel. One thing to help with flinching is "double plugging." Try wearing earplugs and earmuff both, and reducing the sound may help you fight the urge to flinch. And don't forget to keep your focus on your front sight ... There's also a change that you're having trouble with the trigger because the gun doesn't fit your hand. If you can shoot well with a Ruger where it's easy to reach the trigger, the Glock may be too big. The longer, heavier trigger pull on a Glock will exacerbate any problems you have with reaching the trigger too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eerw Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 part of my practice seesion..be it 1 magazine or ends up being most of my practice session..is I shoot dots.. I will pull a small piece of black tape and put it on a target...working from about 10-15 yards..I will draw and shoot one shot using the tape as a POA.. my drill is to shoot 6 one shot draws..the goal is to have all six shots touch.. then I will progress to two shots per draw.. then draw, shoot two, reload, shoot two.. this tends to work my flinch out and works on my patience to see what I need to see to break the shot.. when I was shooting a lot..a friend and I would compete and shoot for the tightest group in the quickest time...I lost a lot of lunches and beer doing that.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
short_round Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 It took me 3 years to get used to a glock trigger ... now I love it. For me it took a long time. Hang in there. I believe a lot of fliching comes from comfort level with the gun. If I shoot a .50 Desert Eagle, after the first shot I will start to flinch. No flinch at all with a .22 for me. All calibers in between have varying results depending on how strong I feel during that session of shooting. Maybe I'll never be comfortable with the .50, but for every other caliber high round count has worked for me. So ... for me the two things that helped the most with flinching is: 1) double plug (use ear plugs and ear muffs) 2) shoot lots of Bill Drills (do a search on "bill and drill" ... you'll have lots to read) Also, if you aren't already doing so, keep your mouth closed when the shots go off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 Robert, in BEnos book you'll find a section on shooting groups. It is at the very beginning, if memory serves me well is the first fundamental that's being teached,it should be somewhere around page 33, Section 2. If you want to start working on shooting groups, you can try shooting groups @ 15yds from a rested position, then work on more distance, up to 50 yds, then starting again from 15yds from a freestyle position and working up the target distance. By shooting groups, you should start to develop the habit of focusing on the trigger movement while keeping the front sight on the target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 Robert, welcome to the forums. Here's some advice from someone who used to flinch and at one point was just as frustrated and desperate as you are now. I even used to flich dryfiring at home. First let me quote you: I'm just getting started shooting handguns[...] This is important. It cost me some time to quit flinching. About two years actually. Once I found out which excercises helped me, it happened fast. Be patient. And try different things. You will cure your flich. The question is when, not if. It tried dry fire. Dry fire is something you want to do anyways, because it helps you improve all skills with your gun. For overcoming your flinching you need live fire though. Live fire is expensive though, but....you do not neccessarily need your own live fire What helped me is to watch other shooters shoot. If you're shooting USPSA with friends, watch them at training. You're there anyways. You might as well cure your flinch. Watch how their gun moves up and down during recoil. See if you can catch a glimpse of the flame at the end of the barrel (all of this from a safe distance behind the shooter of course ) RO your buddies and watch the slide of their gun move back and forth. It is all about relaxed observation. Another thing I used to do is watch if my buddies flinch when they shoot or watch someone else is shooting. If you flich during shooting, chances are good that you will flich when something other than a gun goes bang. Eg. driving a nail into a piece of wood with a hammer. You can drive nails into wood for an hour. Every little thing helps. After a while you'll get used to the loud sounds. You will be able to observe in a relaxed manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penny Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 I have shot several of the other member's single action pistols all with a lighter trigger and I can almost instantly shoot much better.... Most of the advice I get is to stay with the Glock and you'll work through it. I'm beginning to wonder. I'm beginning to think that the further I have to pull the trigger with the Glocks long trigger pull, the more "antsy" I get and the more I begin to anticipate whereas with the lighter triggers on the single action guns the shot goes off before I have time to start anticipating. Robert, Don't despair! It may take some time, but you'll get there with some work. I see a lot of beginner - intermediate shooters on the range. .40S&W and esp. .357sig in light-weight framed guns like the Glock take some work. IMO, both of those calibers have a sharp recoil that results in a flinch. Often, I can "cure" a flinch in a shooter just by handing him or her a 9mm Glock. You might consider shooting a 9mm for a little while. Once you have more experience shooting well with a 9mm, you may be able to adapt to the .40 more easily. Second, since you mention trigger pull -- it's easier to get away with poor trigger control with a lighter, shorter trigger. When you dryfire, do you see absolutely no movement of the front sight? If you can't dryfire "perfectly," then the grip on the gun may be too big (or small) for you as others mentioned. If so, you may have to consider a grip reduction or other modification. If you're confident that fit is ok, then try this trigger reset drill. Get somebody to help you: Dry fire the pistol. After you press the trigger, continue to hold it back. Have your friend rack the slide for you. Slowly release the trigger just until you hear the reset click. Dry fire and repeat a few times. Then do this live fire. Fire a shot and continue to hold the trigger back. Reset only as much as needed. Align the sights, press the trigger again as smooth as possible. I'm not a big believer in "surprise break" of the trigger for pistol shooting -- especially with the glock, you need to know how to take up the slack and know about where the trigger will break. As others mentioned, fire 5 or 6 shot groups from a rest and then from standing. I would suggest starting with 6-inch paper plates at 7yds. If you can keep them all on the plate at 7yds, then move on to 15-yds and beyond. Focus on the front sight and a smooth trigger press. Grip hard with your non-dominant hand. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter Grrl Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 I have shot several of the other member's single action pistols all with a lighter trigger and I can almost instantly shoot much better. Not as good as with my Ruger but much better than with the Glock. Most of the advice I get is to stay with the Glock and you'll work through it. I'm beginning to wonder. I think this was bad advice. First, It's not a failing to not be able to use a gun well. I freely admit that the G34 and me don't get along. I find the grip angle totally foreign and have a really hard time controlling the recoil. (to the point where I *can* continously jam a glock!) Second, most people will concede that shooting is fun. But I can attest to the fact that shooting poorly is NOT FUN! I would recommend one of 2 options, get the glock trigger "worked" or get a new gun. Vanek is a highly recommented glock trigger smith, as is Custom Glock Racing. The trigger job will run you between $175 and $250. Not as expensive as a new gun... but not cheap either! Also, be sure to double up on your ear protection and avoid indoor ranges while you're working through the flinch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 Robert, To call the shot means to know exactly where the bullet went when the shot fired. When I said calling missed shots I meant do you know that you missed as soon as you fire the shot? If in any stage you need to follow the RO to look for your hits on the target, you are in trouble. Ideally you should be able to score your run real time as you are shooting it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingman Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 One of the things to do is find some of the people in here that are close to your area and ask if you can practice with them sometime. I like the RO'ing idea or being near other shooters. Almost everyone not used to it flinches around open guns. That would be a great thing to do, if you can get used to that you can handle anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raz-0 Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 Well, I kept picking up a flinch from indoor practice with people shooting ported 10mm guns and open guns with really loud comps. What worked for me was switchign to quality foam earplugs. I use the EAR neon blasts. 33dbr NRR. Made a world of difference in keeping the flinch away. Shooting for groups is usually what I do for dealing with a flinch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiG Lady Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 Glocks are just difficult guns to handle for some people. And different Glocks have different sized grips. They're also made of plastic--and I, myself, prefer metal. And the triggers are goofy as well... at least for SOME of us. As with SGrrl I didn't end up "getting along" with my G-34 either so I sold it. Again the size and angle of the grip doesn't even come close to a 1911 (for instance) or many other types. But now, flinching is different than jerking. Are you 'flinching' because the sound of detonation somehow bothers you, or are you yanking on the gun AS you pull the trigger...? Two slightly different things. Always pull the trigger gently and ISOLATING the movement of the trigger finger is the key to a LOT of problems. The matter of the front sight is the other half of the issue. Coerce someone into working with you a bit and have them watch you. Keep trying out DIFFERENT guns, too... you might well find one OTHER than the Glock that works for YOU. Seriously. Don't ever think you need to stick with one gun type if it's not working for you. Good luck and shoot well! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougBarnes101 Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 Also if you have access to Matt Burkett's DVD on how to shoot faster he has a section on curing flinch. I believe one way he suggests is to close your eyes and fire a few shots so you can become aware that the gun is not going to hurt you. The other thing Matt suggests is to shoot several magazines as fast as you can because Matt says that you cannot flinch as fast as you shoot. Also ditto on the double plugging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogmaDog Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 When you are dry firing, watch very carefully what is happening! Does the front sight move at all as you pull the trigger, or as the striker releases? If it does, then you're gonna miss, and you need to change *something*. I find with my Kahr (like a shrunken, dessicated Glock) that I have to pull the trigger with the second joint of my finger in order to achieve a straight pull that doesn't disturb the sight alignment. Lots of people on this forum have mentioned in various places that you can shoot faster than you can flinch...if you just shoot a whole magazine into the berm rapidly, you'll blink or flinch for the first few shots, but eventually out-shoot your flinch reflex, and start to be able to see as the shot is going off. I find even when spectating I'll blink for the first shot or two, and then be able to see as the shooter's string progresses. In my own strings of fire, I don't blink much anymore (though I'm sure it happens sometimes...why once in a while and not never or all the time, I don't know). Finally, if you don't encounter those problems when you use a 1911, it's because a 1911 is better! Go get one for yourself. Everyone should own a 1911, and the sooner you get a good one, the happier you'll be for the rest of your life. Don't expect miracles, but if you've already seen results, then you can probably expect the same from a new 1911/2011. DogmaDog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 Step One: Be in your happy place. Step Two: Never "try" to do anything. Once you've got that worked out, things will start to fall in place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 I am sure I've posted this before, but here it is: Kyle's Flinch Breaker - 101 (generic version) - Double plug. I doubt you are flinching due to noise, but double plug anyway...at least when you are shooting. - Know that the big explosion going off at arms length won't do you any harm (simple, I know...but it is something the shooter has to "decide" to accept) - less pressure with the strong hand grip...more pressure with the weak hand. The strong hand needs to be relaxed to operate the trigger in a smooth manner. Calling the shot & follow-thru If you have a flinch, then you just aren't calling the shot and following-thru. There is no way around that truth. If you were calling the shot, you would see that it was off. Eventually, you just wouldn't take the shot. Here are some things to see. - You have to have a Front Sight focus. Razor sharp. Burn it in!!! Forget the target focus for close stuff crap...there are Masters that shouldn't be doing that. When you next go to shoot, don't use a target. Aim at the berm. Not a rock or clump of mud, just the berm in general. Watch the front sight ONLY. Make yourself see it track. That is your only goal here. Do single shots at first. Get a solid sight picture both before and after each shot. That is two sight pictures for each shot...follow-thru. If you don't see the front sight lifting and coming back, then don't move on. This is vital. If you do see it, move to multiple shots...but keep seeing and keep that follow-thru! - Next, move to a close target (one yard). Again, the focus is on watching the front sight track. Target blurry. The target just happens to be there. keep seeing the front sight...TWO sight pictures for each shot. Do single shots first. You should be able to call each and every shot. If you can't, then you weren't focused on the front sight. Never advance if you encounter a problem. If all goes well, move the target back a yard at a time. - Never try to 'catch the sight' and pull the trigger as it (sight picture) wobbles around in the A-zone. Accept that the sights will move around on the target. Just focus on the front sight and release the shot. If it is off, then you will have called it from your read on the sights as the bullet was released. This brings up the next point. - TRUST. You HAVE to trust your sights. Don't look for hits on the target. EVER! Read the sights. If you shot a hoper or a Delta, make it up! A big part of people missing is that they start to look for the hits. They end up looking AS the gun fires. As they look over the gun, they pull it off target. If you call the sights, then there is no need to look (or listen) for hits. If you find yourself doing the "pull the trigger NOW" thing, try this...pretend that your gun is a giant paint brush that extends to the target. Use your gun (sighted) to "paint" a circle around the A-zone. Keep painting the circle, then release the shot at any time along the circle. Call that shot. (don't worry about the hit in the A-zone). If you find yourself looking at the target, or looking for hits ...instead of focusing on the front sight...then close your eyes (safely). Line up the sights between shots, then close your eyes and deliver the shot. Chances are your group will tighten up. If you do the above...and still have a flinch (dry/live-fire) then let me know. Chances are, your flinch might come back during a match. If so, then slow down and call the shot...and follow-thru. Hope you find this helpful! Kyle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiG Lady Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 Step Three: Get the 1911. The gun is so comfortable it won't LET you flinch. I'm serious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moondoggie Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 I agree wholeheartedly with Flex's pointers. The most important thing is to overcome the idea that the pistol is gonna hurt you when it fires. It IS a natural reaction for most folks. You CAN discipline yourself to relax, just let the pistol "lay" there within your grip as you concentrate on sight picture and trigger squeeze until it fires. Just let it happen. When you percieve yourself starting to flinch, stop the firing process, take a breath, relax for a moment, and start over. The "lay" there reference is how I think of it when I'm bullseye shooting. During my DI days in the Marines, we used to smack a recruit across the forehead with a short piece of 2X4 every time they'd flinch...one of our creative methods that fell by the wayside as the world moved toward political correctness. Worked wonders, but prolly not gonna be high on your list of corrective techniques! Perfect practice makes perfect! Good luck!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 A problem that often comes with a long trigger pull, especially if you shoot other guns with "good" triggers, is that you "run out of attention" before finishing the shot. So a conscious "attention shift" might help. Spend a few evenings learning to pull/feel the trigger pull in a new way. First, dry fire a few times paying attention to how you notice how you are aware of feeling the trigger pull - from the time you decide to begin the pull, till the pin drops. Now dry fire some more, but this time before you begin, consciously divide the total length of the trigger pull into four sections, then pull through the first three sections (first 3/4 of the pull) without really paying any attention to the trigger at all, then as you pull the trigger the last 25% of the way, consciously turn up your attention to a full 100% on how it feels to keep steadily pulling the trigger straight through without interuption. Work with this for awhile then take it to the range. If that works for you, work with it long enough until it "takes over" - as you consciously shift 100% of your attention to staring right at the front sight during that last 25% of the pull. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 A friend encouraged me to shoot at a smallish dot on a target, maybe a 2" X 2" dot. The trick was to keep pushing the front sight back to the dot as you pull the trigger. Start close and work back a step at a time, trying to keep the groups close to the same size. The "pushing the dot back to the target" concept really helped me gain follow through on my shots. It will come, good luck. Nate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.E. Kelley Posted September 29, 2004 Share Posted September 29, 2004 Looks like the best and brightest are steering you on the correct path. Man, this forum rocks! If I may add that if you spend more time working on the Glock's peculiar trigger RESET than on pulling the entire stroke you will be well served. My simple routine is to hold the trigger to the rear after dry firing and "cock" the striker by retracting the slide about and inch. Then resuming a firm firing grip, slowly release the trigger until it resets. Apply the fundamentals and tips offered by the forum members as you release the shot. Again hold the trigger to the rear and repeat. I will often do this hold, cock, reset and release over and over at speed just to get the Glock trigger back into my head. Good luck PK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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