WidowsSon683 Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 While your trying to reach that unfocused autopilot state, you are actively concentrating on "not" concentrating, focusing on being unfocused. IMO, until you get to the point where you are shooting just to shoot and smell the gunpowder and hear the report, and not for score or to beat the other guy you wont get to that "zen" state. And thats my pot stirring post for the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daves_not_here Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 (edited) I think you're correct: "IMO, until you get to the point where you are shooting just to shoot and smell the gunpowder and hear the report, and not for score or to beat the other guy you wont get to that "zen" state." Very well said. Zen comes from Mindfulness traditions. This means concentrating on what is happening right now and not getting "hung up" on things as things unfold. Being mindful is keenly observing what is happening and letting the subconscious do things. Like tying your shoe or driving a car you do a lot of it subconsciously. The way you started tying your shoe or driving wasn't like this, the conscious mind had to take a roll in making the shoelace bow or actively looking where to put the key in the ignition etc. After doing things thousands of times you can do it without "thinking" you "just do it" which is the form of autopilot that is desired. What you say about "trying to reach that unfocused autopilot state" sounds like it didn't work for you and it's causing you frustration. As I've defined the mindful Zen state, where the subconscious does the task, how is it possible to reach this by trying with conscious effort when we want to have the subconscious doing things? The way I understand this is that it takes repetition and practice to get things into the subconscious or procedural memory. This is like you said but I think it's gradual and not an instant transformation. Little by little there is less conscious effort needed to complete the task. I hope this is correct and eventually I'll be able to tie my shoes without singing to myself "the rabbit goes around the tree and back into the hole..." DNH Edited February 3, 2013 by daves_not_here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toothguy Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 I think alot of people experience Zen every day they just don't put that label on it. When your doing something you love, focused on minor details and hours float by. Escapes like golf, shooting, crafts ect. give us opportunities to help heal the mind if we can get away from the toxic distractions that supposedly improve our lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sudden Death Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 I think alot of people experience Zen every day they just don't put that label on it. When your doing something you love, focused on minor details and hours float by. Escapes like golf, shooting, crafts ect. give us opportunities to help heal the mind if we can get away from the toxic distractions that supposedly improve our lives. You are correct on this, the other day I was at work and I had a hot job to do as fast as I could get it done, in reality it would take about 3 hours to do, when I finished it only took 2 hours and 15 minutes to do. but it only seamed like 30 minutes to do, after I was done my boss came up to me and said you knocked that out, I replied I was in my ZEN, he looked at me funny and said I have heard about that, so we got into a little descussion about it, so what I am saying is I have done this job so many times ( repetive ) I was just super focused ( autopilot ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norther Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 Now that he knows you can work that fast he'll expect it all the time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 You could have stopped after the 3rd word. While your trying ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sudden Death Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 Now that he knows you can work that fast he'll expect it all the time That's the power of Zen, it shows up unexpected. I got a feeling it will never show up again at work..lol :roflol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 Learning how to get there includes learning not to try to get there. I am finding some "tricks" to turn off my internal dialog by distracting it. What I have tasked my conscious mind with is seeing everything. When it works it is pretty cool. Before the start I am trying to see as much as possible while looking at one specific thing. The buzzer goes off and I take off without a thought in my head and my vision taking it all in. Notice I say "when it works". The more I do it the more consistant I am getting at it. If I am trying to hear the buzzer go off that is conscious, if I am trying to remember the stage that is conscious. Trying is the problem, that is a conscious mind activity. Let your conscious mind observe while the real work gets done subconsciously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pskys2 Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 Now that he knows you can work that fast he'll expect it all the time That's the power of Zen, it shows up unexpected. I got a feeling it will never show up again at work..lol :roflol: It's ok for it to show up at work, just use the extra time to think/do something else productive (design a course?) and don't let anyone know you were ZENNING that day! Might even be against corporate policy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bunsen Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 Might even be against corporate policy Absolutly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Anderson Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 Focusing on the outcome is the surest way to avoid the zone. Executing one shot a time is the surest way to stay in it. The problem is that it feels slow and this scares us. So we speed up in search of the feeling we think we need. Then the wheels fall off. Then we start looking for the secret again. Repeat until it hurts, or find a way to break the cycle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParaGunner Posted March 2, 2013 Share Posted March 2, 2013 Well said Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 So we speed up in search of the feeling we think we need. We desire what we have become accustomed to. Don't become accustomed to anything. "Each time you see, Each time it is new." -Unknown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redial Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 "I am finding some "tricks" to turn off my internal dialog by distracting it. What I have tasked my conscious mind with is seeing everything." Great tip! I do this when jogging (and don't want to be jogging). If your conscious mind is busy narrating and commenting on all the things it sees, it can't interject the "stop, this hurts" thoughts to the mix. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver_Surfer Posted March 8, 2013 Share Posted March 8, 2013 (edited) So we speed up in search of the feeling we think we need. We desire what we have become accustomed to. Don't become accustomed to anything. El Prez! "Each time you see, Each time it is new." -Unknown Our State match is this weekend. The El Prez is one of the stages. My goal is to get 12 A's. It's just 3 full targets not far away but I have yet to do this. Words of wisdon above. Edited March 8, 2013 by Silver_Surfer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver_Surfer Posted March 8, 2013 Share Posted March 8, 2013 (edited) Shoot it not only like you've never shot it before, but also like it will be the last thing you will ever do. be That really sheds a new light on things. Like the last stage of my life! Will Do! Edited March 8, 2013 by Silver_Surfer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Anderson Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 Learning to keep the conscious mind out of your beeswax is crucial, and so is calling the shot. Which is why giving the conscious mind that job works so well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 What is Zen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mudman Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 We desire what we have become accustomed to. Don't become accustomed to anything. "Each time you see, Each time it is new." -Unknown Reading that made me stop in my tracks. And it applies to so much more than shooting. Thanks, BE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miranda Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 What is Zen? well... here is a definition. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/zen seems a little short on explaining it, however. If understanding is a goal, Zen seems to provide a possible path to it. miranda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daves_not_here Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 (edited) Be careful in seeking "understanding". Understanding the "concept" of Zen is not Zen. Techniques help us intuit Mu which is translated as emptiness, no self or no ego. It is something to experience, not to understand, because there is "someone" who is understanding. The best definition I've heard was from Kushner Roshi which describes Zen as being about the relationship between things. When does some paper and ink become a book? It is the relationship between the ink and paper is what we call the book. If you look at a flower do you see the sun or the earth that are in that flower? The flower could not be a flower without the input from the earth and sun. It gets more complicated when you start to explore our relationship with the world. Using a gun or a bow and arrow can be good tools to use for this exploration. The gun or bow is beguileless , it will shoot the bullet or arrow the best that it can every time. Because of this when we miss we look inward to see why it behaved the way it did. Did we take care of our equipment and make sure it is maintained correctly? Did we apply techniques correctly in a way that was appropriate? Were we fully engaged in the shooting or were we not concentrating? What were our intentions? Were we trying to go fast? Were we trying to shoot like someone else? Why did things work out well? Was it luck or good form? Are we judging our performance as good or bad? Shooting as well as Brian Enos on his bad day would be my best day ever. By refining our shooting we can refine ourselves. The path does not end so we continue to refine our shooting. The goal is not to reach the end but to gather the treasure along the way. That is where I am on this matter. As time passes I know less Zen. DNH Edited March 12, 2013 by daves_not_here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miranda Posted March 13, 2013 Share Posted March 13, 2013 http://ed.ted.com/lessons/jill-bolte-taylor-s-stroke-of-insight I am not sure why I decided to post this in this thread. when I study, I find understanding is not always the result. I can't tell you how I walk or type do do darned near anything I can't even explain how I think, for that matter... I know the best way to make walking difficult is to pay attention to it and make my arms swing just so. Then I can't walk, except stiffly. On a good day of practice at the range I can look at the target and print the bullet where I am looking. There is no doubt on those occasions. It is not common. The first time I did it I was shocked. and was not able to do it again for a long time If zen is the ability to walk while carrying a conversation, I can see that with a lot of practice one can shoot and talk. The trick is to get shooting accurately to be such a basic motor facility that is is the same semi autonomous skill as walking. oh that is a lot of practice... miranda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted March 13, 2013 Share Posted March 13, 2013 The trick is to get shooting accurately to be such a basic motor facility that is is the same semi autonomous skill as walking. That was my basic training philosophy... Learn how to live, then just shoot naturally. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Anderson Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Every time a question is answered, a new one is revealed. What can we do but keep asking and answering questions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fireman489 Posted March 19, 2013 Share Posted March 19, 2013 my brain is fried just trying to read all this..... I'm goin back to work ! hahahaaa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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