Should USPSA allow 8-shot minor in Revolver Division?

[TGO]

Flex, if you gotta send me packing I understand. I just couldn't listen to any more of this conspiracy theory. This is becoming too hard for me to watch. Jerry being attacked is unjust and although I TOO want to beat him do not see this as the proper place to attack him personally and feel compelled to defend him in his absence.

[pskys2]

ps - I am planning to shoot revo nationals this year with my 629 because the 625 isn't the ONLY 6 shooter with big bullets and easy reloads

Oh yea that's what I'm talking about, but what loads do you use for the .44? I use Russians with moonclips but can only find 240 LRN bullets, if I could find something about 200 grains and not lead I'd bring my 4" M29 for a primary gun!

Edited February 8, 2013 by pskys2

[Carmoney]

I was part of the conversation at Nationals in Vegas when several of us talked to Phil about the future of Revo Division. Jerry indicated he was in favor of the 8-minor option, and he was very candid about the fact that the recoil of the .45 revolver has become painful for him. (That was certainly not the first time Jerry has mentioned the issues with his hands and elbows, by the way--he been open about that for the last several years.) Matt and Cliff and I spoke up also. During that conversation, we all threw in our two cents' worth, with everybody's positions being pretty much the same as they are here. My comment to Phil was that I have always liked the idea of allowing 8-minor in Revo, and I think we've reached the point where we should consider doing pretty much anything to keep the division from dying on the vine.

I don't think it's unsportsmanlike or wrong for Jerry to want to continue competing in USPSA Revo with a gun that isn't painful to shoot.

No true competitor should want to beat Jerry simply by outlasting him to the point where it's simply too painful for Jerry's hands. That would be a hollow victory, wouldn't it? I don't think that's how Matt (for example) would want to win.

If allowing 8-minor would put the serious competitors on a more even playing field, where it's all about pure shooting capability rather than who's hands are in pain, wouldn't that be a good thing for the game?

[Matt Griffin]

I'm getting depressed by the whole mess. Anyone interested in 5 625s, 2 627s, and a 617? I'm going to go dust off my Glocks.

[Flexmoney]

Flex, if you gotta send me packing I understand. I just couldn't listen to any more of this conspiracy theory. This is becoming too hard for me to watch. Jerry being attacked is unjust and although I TOO want to beat him do not see this as the proper place to attack him personally and feel compelled to defend him in his absence.

TGO,

I'm not going to moderate you (others might, or not). I'm in deep in this discussion, so I'll step away from that.

------------------------

As to when this idea came up and who's credit/fault it is for a stand alone Revo Nats...

Well, I don't know who came up with the idea first. I do know that it has been talked about on this forum for years now. It wasn't a new idea at the SS Nats last year. If Sam would have got elected, we would have likely saw this match in Memphis. If Mike would have been re-elected, I don't know if we would have saw it at all. Phil and you getting the idea executed with the great folks at PASA is awesome! It really is fantastic. Hats off to you for pushing the idea and putting your influence behind it.

Good work!

[Dragon11]

I'll say this. Over the last two to three days, I've had guys who normally shoot bottom feeders in USPSA at my local club in Dayton, OH e-mailing me about shooting revolver. All because of this debate on the forum. I've never seen THAT happen before. Personally, despite this debate getting emotional at times for people, this has been a healthy topic for the revolver world. On to the nationals, just dump um and reload!

[Flexmoney]

Always good points, MIke. Let me ask this...

If allowing 8-minor would put the serious competitors on a more even playing field, where it's all about pure shooting capability rather than who's hands are in pain, wouldn't that be a good thing for the game?

Wouldn't 6-minor do the same thing*? And, it would still allow for the aspect of gaming the stage from a 6-shot perspective.

* (not saying I support that...I have a hard time coming off DVC)

[seanc]

I'm getting depressed by the whole mess. Anyone interested in 5 625s, 2 627s, and a 617? I'm going to go dust off my Glocks.

I've had this conversation a couple times with different guys in the last few days.

I wish I just bought a brazos....

[Carmoney]

Sure, anything's worth consideration at this point.

I really like the choice offered in SS between 8-major and 10-minor. I shoot SS quite a bit and I believe those two options are usually both viable, depending on stage design.

Personally, I think it would be fun to have the same sort of choice in Revolver. But I don't want to obsolete 6-major.

The perception is that 6-major could not compete in USPSA against 8-minor. I think continued testing with an open mind could prove that wrong!

[seanc]

Always good points, MIke. Let me ask this...

If allowing 8-minor would put the serious competitors on a more even playing field, where it's all about pure shooting capability rather than who's hands are in pain, wouldn't that be a good thing for the game?

Wouldn't 6-minor do the same thing*? And, it would still allow for the aspect of gaming the stage from a 6-shot perspective.

* (not saying I support that...I have a hard time coming off DVC)

It would, and there are literally millions of K and L frames and GP100's in the world.

For a couple hundred bucks in machining, they can be made moonclip capable and still be well below the retail cost of a 627.

Just got off the phone with a friend. I am sure he is right and we will be having this conversation about some division in some sport every 3 years...

ha.

[Carmoney]

I'm getting depressed by the whole mess. Anyone interested in 5 625s, 2 627s, and a 617? I'm going to go dust off my Glocks.

I've had this conversation a couple times with different guys in the last few days.

I wish I just bought a brazos....

Guys, don't get depressed! Think big picture--this is exciting stuff for Revolver shooting in USPSA. Nats this year is going to be the Clash of the Titans!

[toothguy]

I'm getting depressed by the whole mess. Anyone interested in 5 625s, 2 627s, and a 617? I'm going to go dust off my Glocks.

I've had this conversation a couple times with different guys in the last few days.

I wish I just bought a brazos....

I think what ever changes might be made must have the blessing of the existing, loyal, hardcore revolver shooters.

[Dragon11]

I think someone else has brought up the six shot minor thing.

[D.Hayden]

One thing about shooting production with a 627, why I've never done it, my holster that I bought for ICORE isn't legal for Production.. I'm sure there's others in the same situation. So Revolver and just counting to six is fine for me.. but I would prefer to go with the procedurals for extra shoots vs going to Open

Minor vs Major, I'd leave the vote to the real revo guys too - get one vote for each match you shot revo in, in 2012

[Matt Griffin]

Sure, anything's worth consideration at this point.

I really like the choice offered in SS between 8-major and 10-minor. I shoot SS quite a bit and I believe those two options are usually both viable, depending on stage design.

Personally, I think it would be fun to have the same sort of choice in Revolver. But I don't want to obsolete 6-major.

The perception is that 6-major could not compete in USPSA against 8-minor. I think continued testing with an open mind could prove that wrong!

Again, you have that exact, precise choice in ICORE. 10 minor and 8 major can play together in SS because the 8 major can engage all targets from a position. The exact same logic applies in ICORE with its 6-round positions, though don't get the help of major scoring. To make 6-major competitive with 8-minor in USPSA you would have to limit positions to 6 shots. While you could do that, you would effectively be saying that in USPSA, every single match except Nationals is a USPSA match, while Nationals is an ICORE match with USPSA scoring.

Was the division on the chopping block? Considering that (until very, very recently) L-10 was a superfluous division since 2004 and has survived, why was revolver going to be killed? Was it going to be killed? Is there a minimum participation level necessary at Nationals necessary for a division to be kept for the next year? Here's an experiment: why not have Production and Limited 10 Nationals at the same time, and see how participation changes?

Let me throw out a scenario that might be the real problem: As Rob has mentioned, he has lots and lots of revolvers. Every top shooter in the sport has or has access to a 625 and the gear to run it. They have also had, over the past decade, ten to twenty opportunities to shoot Revolver division at a major match.

How many have done so?

If the answer isn't "zero" then it's damned close. Call it twenty shooters that, frankly, are a hell of a lot better than I am and could give Jerry a run for his money if they put a few months of practice into it. Multiply that 20 by ten matches a year for ten years, that's 2,000 oppportunities for someone to just maybe dip their toe into the division. The only example I can think of is Rob shooting Limited at the IRC one year and Julie completing her Nationals wheel. Any others?

I'm of the opinion that people who want to shoot revolver, shoot revolver. Mixing everything up in the hopes they might deign to shoot a revolver match so that in one match a year we have an artificially inflated number seems wrong to me on a lot of levels. Every single one of them that are so enthusiastic about having a bonus match after SS had the opportunity to shoot the same match last year and every year before; they shot the division they wanted to shoot instead. Every single one of them had the opportunity to come to Memphis and shoot a revolver major for four years running, exactly Zero have done so. They may be busy folks, but I doubt the shooting calendar is so full that in early November there isn't a paid shooter that can spare two days.

To be honest, I would suspect that most shooters think shooting a revolver is stupid, not hard. It's antiquated and heavy and hard to shoot and expensive and powerful and Jerry is going to beat you anyway. I find all of that charming and fun as a challenge. Trying to shoehorn 8-shots into the division is just a way to make it less like shooting a revolver.

That's my piece on this, I'm done with the thread. Come May I anticipate we'll see a six-neutral stage setup that favors stand-and-shoot skills, low round counts, and a pro shooter not named Jerry in the winner's circle.

Edited February 8, 2013 by Matt Griffin

[seanc]

Was the division on the chopping block? Considering that (until very, very recently) L-10 was a superfluous division since 2004 and has survived, why was revolver going to be killed? Was it going to be killed? Is there a minimum participation level necessary at Nationals necessary for a division to be kept for the next year? Here's an experiment: why not have Production and Limited 10 Nationals at the same time, and see how participation changes?

L10 survives I think because there are still state which have magazine bans, hawaii, nj, mass, and ny now. For reasons of legality it is still viable and even necessary.

Edited February 8, 2013 by seanc

[Bosshoss]

Thanks Rob and Mike for a behind the scenes view point.

This has been a great thread even with some flare ups.

IMHO Revolver is NOT DEAD it is what it is. USPSA is a game designed for autos and that is what most everyone shoots. ICORE is designed for revolver and they have a class for autos but they are as rare as revolvers in USPSA.

I would guess if you looked at overall gun sales that the % of revolvers sold compared to Auto’s would be fairly close to the % of Rev. vs. Auto’s at USPSA matches nationwide.

I think this is a FANTASTIC time for the revolver shooters. Our section (INDIANA) had 12 at the sectional last year and 9 or 10 at the Prod/SS/Rev. level 2 match last year.

Sam’s MCC had 65 IIRC last year(down some because of conflict with the Steel Challenge) but I look for it to be way up this year with the conflict removed.

The stand alone Nationals looks to be a hit so far. I think it was a great move to move to a central location and not require slots.

Why only 17 Revolver shooters at last years Nationals? Well how many slots were awarded at state and area matches? I remember reading on this very forum several shooters in other divisions whining about not getting into the nationals BECAUSE of the 17 Revolver shooters wasting a spot they could have had.

Why didn’t I go last year well a couple of reasons. One I didn’t have a slot. And two is the same reason I don’t shoot the IRC, it is to far away and to expensive for me. Both of these matches would cost over $2000 dollars to shoot for me. That $2000 pays for my bullets, powder, primers, and match fees for the entire year for 3-4 matches a month at the local clubs. I do shoot 4-5 majors a year and I will be shooting the Nationals this year. It is within driving distance and only 2-3 days in a motel.

I hope Matt is wrong about the Nationals being 6 shot neutral as that would ruin it as far as I’m concerned. I’ve stated before that almost all the matches local and level 2 and 3 have mostly 32 round field courses and while I don’t want every stage to be 32 rounds I don’t want every stage to be 18-24 either. I just think at a national championship the courses of fire should be similar in round count to local and level 2 or 3 matches. Look at the stage designs for the area matches they are mostly 32 round field courses. Just my .002.

I still say it’s a great time for revolver and if S&W would make a new batch of 5” guns it would help things along. Although they still sell 4” 625’s and you can get a 5” barrel from several sources and have a gunsmith screw it on. I have handled several SS guns and about 50% of them had a different barrel than what came in it new so you can do it on a revolver too.

The last few days has been the most Revolver action I’ve seen, heard, or read so whether or not 8 Minor happens the discussion has increased the interest in wheel guns.

I STILL like doing something that not everyone can do. I may not win against the autos but I’m having a blast making them sweat.

[TGO]

Flex, if you gotta send me packing I understand. I just couldn't listen to any more of this conspiracy theory. This is becoming too hard for me to watch. Jerry being attacked is unjust and although I TOO want to beat him do not see this as the proper place to attack him personally and feel compelled to defend him in his absence.

TGO,

I'm not going to moderate you (others might, or not). I'm in deep in this discussion, so I'll step away from that.

------------------------

As to when this idea came up and who's credit/fault it is for a stand alone Revo Nats...

Well, I don't know who came up with the idea first. I do know that it has been talked about on this forum for years now. It wasn't a new idea at the SS Nats last year. If Sam would have got elected, we would have likely saw this match in Memphis. If Mike would have been re-elected, I don't know if we would have saw it at all. Phil and you getting the idea executed with the great folks at PASA is awesome! It really is fantastic. Hats off to you for pushing the idea and putting your influence behind it.

Good work!

I have no doubt this is not a new concept for sure! That it wasn't gonna happen under Mike is obvious as it hadn't in all his years as President and I can only assume the concept had been brought up to him. It is really Phil who deserves the credit, along with the stand alone Production Nationals this year.

My inclusion into this event was as I explained. Others may have talked to Phil previously, I just know how the events unraveled as of The SS Nationals last year. Phil thought it was a good idea, that's all.

Thanks for let me vent!! It's just on a personal level, Jerry is my only HERO in this game that is still shooting. What he does and has done is nothing short of miraculous. Of that I assume most agree.

Matt, I'll give you $100.00 apiece for the whole lot!!

[TGO]

Always good points, MIke. Let me ask this...

If allowing 8-minor would put the serious competitors on a more even playing field, where it's all about pure shooting capability rather than who's hands are in pain, wouldn't that be a good thing for the game?

Wouldn't 6-minor do the same thing*? And, it would still allow for the aspect of gaming the stage from a 6-shot perspective.

* (not saying I support that...I have a hard time coming off DVC)

Me too, I like the Vis with lots of diligentia and a good dose of celeritas.

[TGO]

One thing about shooting production with a 627, why I've never done it, my holster that I bought for ICORE isn't legal for Production.. I'm sure there's others in the same situation. So Revolver and just counting to six is fine for me.. but I would prefer to go with the procedurals for extra shoots vs going to Open

Minor vs Major, I'd leave the vote to the real revo guys too - get one vote for each match you shot revo in, in 2012

I get about 10 votes this year already!!

[COF]

Dang, Rob, I was going to offer him $50 and even drive to Kentucky to get them! I was hoping to get some LH wheelgunner lessons thrown in...

[hopalong]

Here we go again for just a little more.

TGO, You are Personally invited to the 2013 Memphis Charity Challenge November 1 and 2.....Please bring both your 625 and your 627 (by the way Sprinfield has been the Match Sponsor from the beginning and you have always had a free slot. I guess it just hasn't been forwarded to you)

USPSA as it is now for a Revolver to shoot is a challenge to make a 6 round capacity gun fit into a game that is based on 8 shots per general shooting area unless the stage is designed by someone who puts a bunch of thought into the stages to make them " NO GUN FRIENDLY"

To shoot a Revolver in USPSA now 1 of the challenges it to be able to work in the several reloads where they are not in a "Good Spot" to do so. That is part of the game as it is and as a MD and Stage designer for the MCC my stages are quite more "revolver friendly" but they are still USPSA stages with all the same challenges.

Good stage design will help keep a 6+ round gun shooting minor competitive with the 6 major guns. Until the Stage designers learn how to make the stages "no gun friendly" the 6+ minor guns will have a small advantage.

The 2012 Memphis Charity Challenge had a smaller showing than the previous matches. Several reasons, one the Steel Challenge was scheduled on the same weekend, but there were other reasons I was told. I even told Matt Griffin to stay home and let his arm heal after the nationals where he competed with the other 16 revolver shooters.....Where was I for Nationals? @ home, I've been to 7 National Championships I know where I stand with everyone and now that I've hurt my "Good hip" I didn't see the need to spend $3000 (What is costs me in lost time @ work, ect. ect.) to get hit by a bouncing ricochet or shoot the same place I always have.

I would love to see anything to help the division grow. allowing 6+ to shoot minor and not have to reload after 6 shots is cool with me as I voted no change for me. Would I go buy one? NO......I'm gonna kick your ass with MY 646----Notice I didn't say 625 ??? and make you like it (after I get a hip replacement and can move again "Hopefully)

If the powers that be decide not to allow 6+ guns, maybe drop the Change to open for more than 6 before the reload to a procedural per shot fired after 6....I'm good with that too. I'm still gonna kick your ass with my 646 and make you like it.

USPSA has its own UNIQUE challenges for a revolver that ICORE doesn't and that is why I shoot USPSA with a revolver. ICORE is around where I live (Gotta drive but I can get there) but I still choose to shoot USPSA.

Oh Bye the way the 2013 Memphis Charity Challenge will be held November 1 and 2 We may be doing some changes, pay attention later at the Match listings.

I voted NO change for me. I'll still shoot my 646 Major, might shot it Minor but I'll still be doing everything in my abilities to KICK YOUR ASS !!!!!

TGO Thank you for your help !!!!!

Sam Keen ONE of the 15 ish Revolver Grand Masters .

[Matt Griffin]

I know I said I'd leave the thread, but I've been wrong plenty of times before. Thanks for coming in, Sam.

[ChrisC]

i think we should be able to carry a back up revolver like SASS.....

just kidding...

[jhgtyre]

ps - I am planning to shoot revo nationals this year with my 629 because the 625 isn't the ONLY 6 shooter with big bullets and easy reloads

Oh yea that's what I'm talking about, but what loads do you use for the .44? I use Russians with moonclips but can only find 240 LRN bullets, if I could find something about 200 grains and not lead I'd bring my 4" M29 for a primary gun!

I'm shooting the .44 Russians, moonclipped, with 240's from Laredo and 4 something of WST (can't remember exactly how much). I would like to try the Hornady Leverevolution jacketed bullets but they are kinda spendy.

ANYWAY, as a Revo Forum Moderator I better quit drifting Carmoney's thread...

I hope the 8 shot minor experiment brings in more shooters. If the IRC can bring in 250 or so competitors the USPSA Nationals should be capable of getting more than 17. The system is broken; lets fix it.

-ld