New Gun Conundrum

[Cavediver29]

So here's the deal, I've been shooting IDPA ESP and USPSA steel challenge for a little over 2 years. Recently I began shooting in some local production decisions even though due to stippling my M&P should fall into limited. Its a local match so its not a big deal either way. The problem with this is that it has instilled a massive desire to get into shooting open.

Here is the conundrum, I'm torn between 4 different approaches at reaching my open gun dreams.

1) 2011 Platform of some fashion yet to be determined (probably sti).

2) CZ Build.

3) M&P 9pro build from new gun

4) M&P 9pro build using bare slide and my ESP lower. Local shop has a slide in stock so acquisition will not be a problem.

My main concerns are related to long term enjoyment and challenge. Regardless of the approach I choose I intend on doing all of the work myself. The main reason I want to get into open is to build my own gun. I have lots of machining and engineering experience and have no doubts that in the long run I will be able to build a quality gun. I am aware that this approach will likely lead to increased cost and lots of headaches however it is the approach that I would like to take. However, once I have finished construction I do not want to be out performed simply due to limitations of the chosen platform.

My question is will the M&P platform leave me hanging at local matches or is it capable of being competitive? Part of the reason I'm leaning this route is because there are very few open m&p's whereas everyone has an open 2011/1911 or CZ.

Secound, if I choose the M&P should I with from a new stock gun or just a bare slide. As I said either are readily available. The new gun obviously provides a clean slate, however the slide up approach saves a few hundred bucks but will limit the design of the final open gun since the lower will still need to be ESP compliant.

Any advice or comments would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advanced.

[Sarge]

There is not an M&P or Glock Open gun in the world that performs anywhere near on par with a 2011. Even though I think 9MAJOR is every bit as good as 38S you are only going to be able to run 9MAJOR in anything other than a 2011. I think you should find somebody to let you shoot their gun to see for yourself before dumping money into a gun of any kind.

[Sarge]

Save yourself some trouble:

http://www.brianenos...3

Edited January 3, 2013 by Sarge

[gng4life]

My main concerns are related to long term enjoyment and challenge.

Given this statement here and the choices given, go with a 2011 build. I am not knocking the M&P, I have 3 of them and love them but nothing compares to the 2011 custom Open guns I have. You will have some long term enjoyment with that platform for many years to come. And I promise, it will be a challenge too

Enjoy...

[Chris iliff]

You can get all your parts for a 2011 build right from Brownells. If you own any kind of business or you are ex military, they offer better prices, well they use to anyway.

Not knocking your other choices, I just think with your background you can do it and you might as well do it on the best platform. IMHO.

[Cavediver29]

I appreciate the replys, and advice. In the past I have shot two open guns. Admittedly neither were in 9 Major or 38S so there is likely some difference in feel between these and what I would get. Both were sti variants, one in 40 the other in 357sig. The triggers were the only thing that was overly impressive and I know matching that feel will be all but impossible on anything else.

The thought I had while shooting these guns is why is the 1911 design considered so superior? Besides the obvious single action trigger benefits I can't figure out any other reason why this platform stands out so much. Obviously there are some differences in slide dynamics being that the 1911 frame is more rigid, slide movement is dampened by two forces instead of one (reset of the hammer and the recoil spring compression), and some differences in the unlocking of the barrel. In addition the all metal construction provides the ability for the slide to be fit with much tighter tolerances then on a polymer frame.

That being said, the 1911 has had over 100 years to evolve. Maybe its just an issue of no one figuring out the secrets to the polymer guns in order to make them perform on par with there metal predecessors.

I have no doubt that the nerd in me is driving this debate. Maybe I should just get both. Build the 2011 gun to fill that void in the collection and to feed the open gun desire. Then pick up another M&P to be a new pet project and let the nerd run free.

[Sarge]

2011's are much, much heavier than a polymer gun for one thing. You can lighten the slides to almost nothing and run 7 lb springs in them. Couple that with a vast selection of different comps available. Mag capacity is higher. Mags are heavier which puts even more weight back in the palm of your hand. Mags allow you to run longer rounds which opens up more powder selections. There are several options available for mounting optics in a way to prevent ejection issues. And, like you said, triggers are much better.

[a matt]

Shooting in production with a modified gun that should be in limited, is like shooting major knowing you are shooting minor. Makes one wonder why we have rules? I'm not trying to pick on you. But I don't know why, knowing that the modification puts be in limited that one would blow it off. You can shoot limited 10.

Good luck with your open shooting.

[Cavediver29]

In regards to being placed in production that has been the match coordinators call not mine. Its a local fun match so its a mute point. I would enter it as limited anywhere else I shot but at this range they have been grouping me with production for whatever reason. I think its because very few shoot limited there. Last match I shot only had open guys and production guys so it may just be a logistic issue at the small match. You are right though I should be grouped with limited and would prefer that option.

In regards to the 2011 the frame weight is a benifit however I've analyzed the m&p slide and there is a good amount of weight that can be removed from it as well without causing structural issues. I am also working on a dynamics model that should allow me to figure out optimal spring rates and slide lightning. The magazine capacity issue I don't agree with entirely being that the limit is 170mm and extensions for 27 rounds exist, I don't see that as a limit. The same can be said for the magazine weight. I'm not sure about the round length issue though. You very well could be on to something there that I never realized. In terms of optics mounts there are more limited options but I'm not affraid of developing my own. There are defiantly less available comps as well, while I could run some cfd analysis on them as well, compensator design would defiantly not be an easy task.

As you can see there would definitely be some challenges with such a project but I have yet to find one thats insurmountable. I'm thinking that even if Im not capable of building a national quality gun I may still be able to come up with a surprisingly good polymer attempt. At the very least it would be a unique alternative.

[Sarge]

sounds like your mind is made up on the M&P. just so you know 27 rounds in Open is not gonna be equal to a 2011. I can get 29 in mine and some get 30 when tuned.

[gng4life]

There are some definitely good polymer Open guns out there (Glockworx, SJC, Jager, etc.) but there are some intangibles that can't be scientifically explained or put on paper concerning the 2011 platform. Your insight into innovation is noteworthy but I wouldn't go reinventing the wheel either. The best advice is go out and shoot a bunch of Open guns, 2011 and polymer based, from friends and fellow shooters. Then you and only you can determine what is good for you and what path you should take.

[Hi-Power Jack]

sounds like your mind is made up on the M&P.

Sarge is right on this one - let us know how you like it after you've built it -

probably be a very nice pistol - lot of fun to build and to shoot.

[Cavediver29]

I really appreciate all your advice on this subject. Sarge and others did exactly what I was hopeing for. He introduced challenging questions and presented topics that I will need to consider. When I posted this I was not sure if I should even bother with attempting a polymer open project. I was looking to see if there was a irrevocable reason why not to give it a try. All of you provided insight into the expected challenges to be faced and I am of the impression that they are surmountable. I'm really motivated by this project due to the unique considerations related to this build.

Also, I intend for this to be a long term project so dont expect rapid progress reports but at the very least I'll present the final product. I intend to do alot more analysis before I begin building anything and in that time I'm going to try to get as much exposure to various open guns as I can. In the long run I'll probably end up with both platforms simply because 2011 based open guns are defiantly hard to beat, in the mean time I think this project will easily keep me challenged for quite some time.

Thanks everyone.

[msg73]

If money was no object, I would think the clear answer would be a custom 2011 open build. For most people, money is a factor and I get the feeling that you're looking for some 'encouragement' on the M&P path. That said, a big question is if you want a frame or slide mounted optic. If you're ok with a slide mounted optic, then you might as well just get a new slide, optic, barrel and comp and just switch slides on your existing lower. If you don't have one already, get a SSS ESP magwell and Taylor Freelance base plates that you can use for IDPA and USPSA. If you want a frame mount, then you'll have to start with a new M&P. SJC has a horizontal c-more frame mount for the M&P.

While I agree that a good 2011 open build would probably outperform an M&P open build, I think it's a much lower factor when compared to the shooter's ability.

[bigfish]

If you are just looking to get your feet wet and test the open waters, then go with the m&p. It will most likey be a easier gun to build since the parts are going to be drop in, and also cheaper. If you are planning to be a serious open division shooter, then get a 2011, it will cost more, but probably perform better. I love my m&p and shoot mostly production, but at the end of a day its a striker fired gun will never have as good of trigger as a 1911

[Joe4d]

i dumped lots of time and money into lost causes like this in several differnt sports and right now I am actually doing it again. I tried to make a Browing Hipower competitive, even had all the C&S magwell installed, all the doodads and had a non competitive IDPA ESP gun, finely built a 40 1911, did the same thing with a para in USPSA, eventually ordered a STI, currently trying to turn a TN walking horse into an endurance horse when 99% of the field are runnign arabians,

Generally there is a reason certain guns, or horses are the most common in a given sport. Yeh variety is the spice of life, but it is so much cheaper and easier to just get what everyone else is running and winning with. You get the benefit of lots of years of R&D. Leave the experimenting to those with big budgets and lots of time.

[kneelingatlas]

I know exactly what you mean Cavediver! I'm pretty new to USPSA and am really enjoying it, but the fun of the build rivals the shooting. I love my Tactical Sport so I've been working on a 9Major upper for it just for the fun. If there's a gunsmithing equivalent to a shade tree mechanic that's me; I got a good deal on a small frame Tango I'm using as a test bed for everything I want to do to the TS.

[wes777]

Why dont you build your mp open and shoot minor? Mill the dog snot out of your slide, add barrel and comp, lighter recoil spring, big F in magwell, TFL base pads, and leupold delta point. shoots minor or major (major being a big headache for your gun selection).

Cause you are gonna end up wanting a tangfo or 2011 gun, especially if you are in it for the long haul.

PS. I had a similar dilemma wanted to go open, didnt have the cheese spread for it. Was planning on a g17 build. Then I talked to allot of dudes and shot some guns. Glock idea out the door. Then came my Tangfo idea....... after allot of reading, most people have a real hard time getting 9major to run fo shite. Got lucky and shot a couple of Akai guns in 38sc and 9major. Got one on order.

[Cavediver29]

Msg73: I'm still considering frame or slide mount. I want to find someone with a slide mount of some type to see how it shoot because obviously it is a cheaper approach. I have the esp magwell but still haven't ordered the tf baseplates. I've looked at the slc products and they look promising. You also bring up a valid question, how big of a difference will the average shooter see between the different platforms.

Joe4D: I have a feeling that this project may end the same. However, I enjoy this type of project and worst case I end up with a giggle worthy m&p open gun and a 2011 down the road. But who knows, maybe I'll be perfectly happy toying around with the m&p.

Kneelingatlas: I know exactly what you mean, I sometimes wounder if I prefer working on the guns or shooting them more. Why not enjoy the challenge of the build and just shoot for fun. Even if you finish last every match I doubt anyone would complain about spending the day st the range.

Wes77: I have definitely thought about just running minor in open. My current thought is to initially build for major and worst case have minor as a fall back. Luckily I enjoy playing with loads so even playing around with trial major loads will be enjoyable. Even if this project waste 5 years, I can still switch to a 2011 before I'm 30 and have plenty of years of fun shooting ahead if me.

Again, thanks everyone.

[PhilD]

I've owned a few 2011 open guns and currently playing around with a G17 open gun. The 2011s definitely shot flatter and softer, and just feel like a more "engineered" product. That said I'm having fun with the Glock and enjoying it. It runs flawlessly with major 9 and will shoot minor 9 too. Does it shoot as well as a good 2011? No. Is it still fun? Yes.

Making major with a shorter OAL (1.160" in my case) is not that difficult and I'm currently running around 173 PF.

One think I have noticed is that there are some signs that the gun is taking a beating. The common peening you get on a Glock slide from the locking block is noticeably more pronounced. Fully inspecting the pistol on a regular basis is a given and it may not experience the longevity of a 2011.

Is a 2011 a better choice? Without a doubt, and in the long run most probably a more economical one too, but I'd build a Glock open gun again as it's been fun.

Edited January 7, 2013 by PhilD

[steviesterno]

I've been watching this one with interest, as I'm a broke-ass shooter like many on here. I run 3 gun and limited with a 6" 40 STI, and carry a 4" 45 STI. I don't have the coin at the moment to set up something in 9mm, but I still want to try open. I'm really thinking about just getting an M&P CORE with a trijicon in it for the local matches around here (no PF). Could also shoot steel challenge and keep it for HD since my GF prefers optics, all without sinking much more than $1k into the whole set up. Anybody try this route?

I know it might not be the best solution long term, but it seems like it could be the best solution for now. Plus I get my feet wet in a new division without paying more for a gun than I did for my car.

[818-DVC]

If you are stuck on the financial argument of 2011's being too expensive, please let me the first to tell you that the gun is the cheapest part of it all. Ammo will be the most expensive part of this game. What I like most about the 2011, is that there are far more options out there for parts, and most the people you will shoot open with are on the same platform for a reason. They are superior in every way when built properly.

I think mfgs are just scratching the surface when it comes to aftermarket components for M&P or glocks, and you will be hard pressed to find a part should it break at a match to borrow from fellow shooters in open with so few shooting an M&P or Glock. It is my opinion, that the plastic gun is best suited for production.

[lee blackman]

Hindsight is 20/20. Look back thru the year, all the time, money, and effort spent, given everything I've learned the hard way, could I go back, this is what I'd have done.

Saved up enough money to start out in open with a quality build on a 2011 platform in .38super. Ordered it from SVI or a high end builder. Get a good quality belt, pouches, and holster. While waiting for it to be built, saved more money and ordered a bulk amount of brass, bullets, powder, primers, and a reloading press. Enough to load and shoot for the whole year (500 to 1000rds a month), assuming about a 80% brass recovery from local matches and range practice.

Then I would have shot the whole first year, getting extra practice when I could, and learn as much as I could from fellow shooters. And every year at the beginning of the year I would reorder reloading components, replacement springs, and an extra magazine tube for the whole year in bulk. But the next year I would definitely have attended a good competitive shooting class. And put money aside for another gun built exactly the same as the one I was shooting. So eventually when something broke on the first one I could send it back and start shooting the second one. And honestly you'd pretty much be good for life. Just budget to save for bulk order, and then memberships and range fee's.

[1911Prof]

Since I am having similar questions, I was wondering if anyone could provide insight into an open shorty based on a commander length Schumann hybricomp barrel (with 2 or 3 holes) and an Akai Shoto comp

[gng4life]

1911Prof, I'm having one built with a Schumann 3 hole and the Shoto comp. I ran the Shoto on a full size with no holes and it felt horrible to me. That lasted about a day and I took it off. I put in on another one with one small popple hole and it felt better but not better than the one I had on there already. I had one of the Schumanns lying around and decided to build that up with the Shoto. I hope to have it back in a few months. Even Shay recommends at least two popple holes with the Shoto comp. I hope it turns out like I think it will...Let us know what you do and I'll try to remember to report back also...