IPSC Rule 2.2.1.5 being implemented in USPSA for 2013?

[Joe4d]

I wish I could find video of the stage from a European match that had the shooters running through this spiral maze. I'm not sure how the IPSC rules read, but it seems like it would be in violation of this USPSA rule:

1.1.8 Scenarios and Stage Props — The use of scenarios and reasonable stage props is encouraged. Care must be exercised, however, to avoid unrealistic non-shooting requirements which detract from the shooting challenge and/or may expose competitors to potentially unsafe conditions.

You mean like a balance beam stage ?

[CZinSC]

I wish I could find video of the stage from a European match that had the shooters running through this spiral maze. I'm not sure how the IPSC rules read, but it seems like it would be in violation of this USPSA rule:

1.1.8 Scenarios and Stage Props — The use of scenarios and reasonable stage props is encouraged. Care must be exercised, however, to avoid unrealistic non-shooting requirements which detract from the shooting challenge and/or may expose competitors to potentially unsafe conditions.

I think I found it for you. I knew what stage you were talking about and just took a shot at a YouTube search. Hopefully this is the one you are referring to. It was the 2011 Moscow Open. Stage 11, video of it, including a picture of the WSB (diagram only, no instructions) starts at the 16:44 mark.

Edited January 1, 2013 by CZinSC

[sperman]

That's it! I was searching for it as you posted.

[partyboy424]

HOLY COW! I would be tripping all over myself on that stage.

[CHA-LEE]

That maze stage is retarded. That is testing your running ability, not your shooting ability.

[remoandiris]

That maze stage is retarded. That is testing your running ability, not your shooting ability.

The last person shown in the video did not do all that running around in circles nonsense. Shows the stage had options depending on what the shooter wanted to do.

At the IPSC Nats in Frostproof, a shooter from the CZ Republic mentioned some stages in Europe have 60 yd runs. IMO, that is testing running ability instead of shooting ability. Then again, since I haven't seen the stages, it could be the running gives shooters the option to get closer to the targets instead of taking longer shots.

Edited January 2, 2013 by remoandiris

[ChuckS]

That maze stage is retarded. That is testing your running ability, not your shooting ability.

The last person shown in the video did not do all that running around in circles nonsense. Shows the stage had options depending on what the shooter wanted to do.

The guy who didn't do the maze had the fastest time! In order in the video:

23.98

24.92

23.45

23.17

It looks like it was a test of shooting ability.

[cas]

It looks like it was a test of shooting ability.

Or was it a test of puzzle solving ability. People like to apply the "test of shooting ability" here and there, but stop short. You can claim a many stages wasn't a test of shooting, but rather a test of reloading, or a test of memory or counting.

I think that maze was great. Don't know that I'd want to shoot it, but still.

I don't think an across the board rule is needed for cutting corners / in & outs is needed, but being able to apply it to certain stages is a very useful tool to a stage designer/builder. "Put up some walls" isn't always the best answer.

[ErichF]

Aside from the stages, that is the most awesome indoor range I have ever seen! What do you all think is on the walls for bullet trap material? It's rare to see an indoor range that is non-linear, at least down here in the south...

[remoandiris]

Aside from the stages, that is the most awesome indoor range I have ever seen! What do you all think is on the walls for bullet trap material? It's rare to see an indoor range that is non-linear, at least down here in the south...

Considering this is in Russia, I doubt they are encumbered by the vast array of safety issues we are saddled with in the US. OSHA, EPA, etc. In no way am I implying IPSC in Russia or anywhere else is not as safety concious as IPSC or USPSA in the US. I am saying the gubment entities are probably not as safety nazi-ish as in the US.

[OUshooter]

Aside from the stages, that is the most awesome indoor range I have ever seen! What do you all think is on the walls for bullet trap material? It's rare to see an indoor range that is non-linear, at least down here in the south...

Considering this is in Russia, I doubt they are encumbered by the vast array of safety issues we are saddled with in the US. OSHA, EPA, etc. In no way am I implying IPSC in Russia or anywhere else is not as safety concious as IPSC or USPSA in the US. I am saying the gubment entities are probably not as safety nazi-ish as in the US.

Seems I read an article about those ranges. If I recall that's why they are in ground / indoors because of all the overbearing guberment regulations on ranges. It was in FS I think.

[Parallax3D]

That would be a really stupid rule. Part of the challenge is figuring out the quickest way to shoot a COF. Sometimes, that means stepping out of bounds to take a shortcut. If you're going to limit someone's options, use barricades.

[remoandiris]

Aside from the stages, that is the most awesome indoor range I have ever seen! What do you all think is on the walls for bullet trap material? It's rare to see an indoor range that is non-linear, at least down here in the south...

Considering this is in Russia, I doubt they are encumbered by the vast array of safety issues we are saddled with in the US. OSHA, EPA, etc. In no way am I implying IPSC in Russia or anywhere else is not as safety concious as IPSC or USPSA in the US. I am saying the gubment entities are probably not as safety nazi-ish as in the US.

Seems I read an article about those ranges. If I recall that's why they are in ground / indoors because of all the overbearing guberment regulations on ranges. It was in FS I think.

They already have overbearing gubment regs against firearms. We might as well start getting used to it, too.

[Nik Habicht]

I really don't want to have to shut down rules or shooting threads for political commentary. Please let this be the end of it.....

[juan]

That would be a really stupid rule. Part of the challenge is figuring out the quickest way to shoot a COF. Sometimes, that means stepping out of bounds to take a shortcut. If you're going to limit someone's options, use barricades.

should we get rid of walls ? don't they limit movement and get in the way of freestyle shooting ? maybe fault lines too.

[sperman]

As of right now, there is nothing in the proposed 2013 rulebook regarding this rule--it was suggested, but I believe we've written it out in favor of more practical rules regarding stage design and restrictions on movement. I do not believe that the entire board, nor the RMI corps, has had time to review the 2013 rules, but we are working towards it.

Troy

Troy,

It looks like the first major is less than 2 weeks away. Florida State Championship - Frostproof, FL. Any chance the new rulebook will be out by then?

[Aglifter]

I can see the value in adding something like this - not turning all fault lines into barriers, but I can see stages - and have shot them, where it would be safer to say "This is a see through barrier, you cannot shoot through it, nor go through it, but the RO gets to be in a less intrusive/safer place"

Although, if the rules allow it, stringing a rope up would do the same thing

Edited January 5, 2013 by Aglifter

[Chris iliff]

Dumb rule. A pity if Uspsa does this nonsense. Freestyle. Freestyle. Freestyle.

What exactly, do some people not get?

[juan]

true freestyle would be chaos.

why not run to the top of the berm and shoot them all, after all frestyle freestyle freestyle.

[Nik Habicht]

true freestyle would be chaos.

why not run to the top of the berm and shoot them all, after all frestyle freestyle freestyle.

True enough. However one of the things that makes USPSA unique is the concept of freestyle. Clearly we rein that in for safety's sake (180, no running to the top of the berm, barriers or double fault lines to maintain minimum distances for steel targets) and by course construction for competitive equity. The problem with such a rule however, is that some stage designers -- me included -- like to leave plenty of loopholes and options for competitors to exploit. We do this for a few different reasons, including, but not limited to, the sport having a "thinking required" component and the fact that a good Open Division stage may not make a good Revolver stage. Some of these options we leave balance out the different approaches to a stage dictated by the competitor's division of choice....

[Sarge]

why not run to the top of the berm and shoot them all

2.1.9 All berms are “off limits” to all persons at all times, except when access

to them is specifically permitted by a Range Officer (see Rule 10.6.1)

[juan]

true freestyle would be chaos.

why not run to the top of the berm and shoot them all, after all frestyle freestyle freestyle.

True enough. However one of the things that makes USPSA unique is the concept of freestyle. Clearly we rein that in for safety's sake (180, no running to the top of the berm, barriers or double fault lines to maintain minimum distances for steel targets) and by course construction for competitive equity. The problem with such a rule however, is that some stage designers -- me included -- like to leave plenty of loopholes and options for competitors to exploit. We do this for a few different reasons, including, but not limited to, the sport having a "thinking required" component and the fact that a good Open Division stage may not make a good Revolver stage. Some of these options we leave balance out the different approaches to a stage dictated by the competitor's division of choice....

nik

I agree with you, and I try to design my stages for mutiple avenues .

I dont think this rule would necessarily stifle creativity with propper stage design , you could still put a fault line around the whole bay if you wanted.

I see the benifit when trying to choke a area down, wich we do with barricades any how,

[Nik Habicht]

When I design a stage, I control the shooting area through a combination of walls and fault lines, and occasionally barricades and barrels. Doorways may come in too.....

That's the shooting area. If I'm using fault lines I clearly don't care about controlling movement. This is as it should be -- that's why I'm using fault line.....

When I do care about controlling shooter movement while not shooting, I'll put up walls to ensure that someone can't cut a corner....

All this rule accomplishes is to rob stage designers of options -- they gain nothing. Some would argue that it makes it easier for stage builders -- and I can appreciate that, given how many I've built or helped build. I don't believe that tradeoff is worth what we would lose in stage design flexibility....

[Jim Norman]

Nik, We will have to disagree on this. Define a shooting area without walls that is 12 inches wide and winds through the various arrays without having to elevate it. I do agree that it should be the exception in stage design.

[sperman]

The rulebook does provide options.There are other ways to limit a competitors movement besides walls.

2.2.1.5 Off-Limits Lines may be used to define an area of the range floor which has been declared off-limits. The written stage briefing must identify the presence and location of Off-Limits Lines (if any). The off-limits area must be clearly delineated with rope, caution tape or other materials and must be at least 2 feet high and at least 2 feet from any Fault Line or Shooting Box. (See Rule 10.2.11)