Chris iliff Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 I'll probably shoot production optic in the coming year. Gonna be fun, I won an XDM, so I'll just have the cost of the optic in the gun! Hell yeah, PO on the cheap!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 Sarge don't say anything! I hope this thread is finally over. Me too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 Here it is, got it done today. I'm ready to rock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmt Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 zhunter, the gun looks good. Good luck with promoting PO. Why do all the haters keep coming back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Thanks Today is sightin day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 First match tonight Open Minor, loaded mags tom10 Holy crap that was fun https://practiscore.com/results.php?uuid=9a4e0deb-94f1-491e-a9e8-b83201c8f1bd&page=individualScores Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 Production Optics has everything... Low entry costs, the challenge of figuring out the stage plan with 10 round magazines and a level playing field to compete in. It has all the advantages of Production and all the fun of Open. Hopefully more people will try it and find that out for themselves... And maybe one day we can convince the BOD of its value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 First match tonight Open Minor, loaded mags tom10 Holy crap that was fun Way to go. It is a lot of fun. Wait until you try steel challenge with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 First match tonightOpen Minor, loaded mags tom10Holy crap that was funWay to go. It is a lot of fun. Wait until you try steel challenge with it. Zack The steel I shot in last night's match was like cheating Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 Did you shoot any video? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 Did you shoot any video? Stage 2, my first stage. Pretty tentative not really knowing what to expect, especially at night. Had a hard time finding the Dot on the 3rd target Stage 3, nicked a NS Stage 1 was by far my best stage, but I had camera operator issues Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gooldylocks Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 Looks like you had an FTE on the first video, on the leftmost popper of the 3 in the middle. Those look like awesome fun though, you guys do that every week? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 (edited) Looks like you had an FTE on the first video, on the leftmost popper of the 3 in the middle. Those look like awesome fun though, you guys do that every week? Watch again, it was engaged, we actually checked the shot timer to confirm Yep, every Thursday night Edited December 12, 2014 by zhunter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 Looks like you had an FTE on the first video, on the leftmost popper of the 3 in the middle. I thought the same thing but if you count the bangs there are 4 of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 We have a division for almost, ALMOST everyone. Would PO add or detract? I think it would water down our sport, not add to it, there would be an exodus from Prod to PO by a number of people, but would any new blood come in? Where are all the PO shooters out there going to come from? Want to add to USPSA? I would suggest that we undo the damage to Revolver and add Open Revolver, now you can play with your 8 round revo, add a comp and a dot, Those people are out there shooting. The damage to Revo has been done, Did I shoot Revo? On occasion, I spent the money to get 'the' gun and had it worked up so that it was as good as it gets (way better than I am) and now it is a useless paperweight in my safe. Would PO do the same to Prod? Not likely, but it would split the division without bringing new blood. We could go crazy here, really crazy: Open as in really OPEN, no limits on mags, no limits on caliber, a PF of maybe 150. Open as it is, Limited Limited Optics Production Production Optics Single Stack Single Stack Open Single Stack Optics Revolver Revolver Open Revolver Optics Must be something I am missing, how about Cowboy guns? let's have a division for my old SAA, heck maybe a muzzle loader division as well? Great, now everyone can play and no one has more than a couple local competitors in any division as we've split it down and apart so deeply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 (edited) Jim, Why did Production Division grow so rapidly ? It grew in part because it was a cheaper alternative to Limited and significantly cheaper than Open. According to a recent analysis of World Shoot competitors the Open division is declining, I suspect that regions generally send competitors to the World Shoot that are representative of participation in their countries. If this is the case then there may be a world-wide decline in Open. There was a similar decline in Modified in part because of the extreme cost of those guns and limited participation (no-one to compete against). Perhaps USPSA can provide a report going back a dozen years or so showing the number of classifier scores being submitted by division and see what the trend is. If the price of Open guns continues to rise what will they cost five years from now, we are already seeing Open guns costing in excess of $5000, will they cost $6000 in five years ? Even Limited guns are costing over $3000 !! We have no low-cost version of Open, we have seen on this thread numerous cases of people who do not want Production Optics and seek to validate their dislike by suggesting numerous other divisions be added to USPSA, with all due respect I think your argument is nonsense. Proponents of this new division have NEVER suggested adding numerous divisions to cater for every different permutation of equipment. What do you object to, is it the concept of Production Optics or the addition of a new division ? Some members of USPSA have a 'if its not broken don't fix it' mentality, and that is all well and good but the world is changing and if USPSA does not adapt to those changes it will stagnate and decline. The fact is that we in this country have been in a recession for about 10 years, median incomes are dropping, people have less disposable income than they did in the past. What actions has USPSA taken to open the sport up to more participation at a lower cost ? USPSA has done NOTHING to address this issue... Production Optics is a low-cost division, why because it reduces the modifications that can be done to the gun, Open allows almost unlimited modification and the costs are rising each year. With PO we take the best part of Production (low cost for the base guns and reduced opportunity to modify) and the best part of Open which is the red-dot and put the two together. Yes, some people will move from Production to PO, so what ? Yes, some people will move from Open to PO, again so what ? Your question was; will it bring in new people ? Actually there are three questions that should be considered. 1. Will it bring in new people, over 2000 people have purchased the M&P CORE (which is why it is now recognized for Production), why did those people buy a gun that can easily hold a red-dot scope... did they buy it just because they had some spare cash or do they plan to put a dot on it ? 2. Will it allow USPSA to retain more members who would otherwise quit because they cannot focus on the front sight and cannot afford a competitive Open gun ? 3. Will it encourage more sponsorship from Glock, S&W, Springfield Armory, Tanfoglio, Sig, FNS, CZ etc.. as they will now have TWO divisions where their equipment is competitive ? Edited December 12, 2014 by BritinUSA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 Jim, Why did Production Division grow so rapidly ? It grew in part because it was a cheaper alternative to Limited and significantly cheaper than Open. You can be competitive in limited for not much more than it costs to be competitive in production. Maybe that wasn't the case when production was introduced, but it sure is now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-shot Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 Here it is, got it done today. I'm ready to rock I'm building my glock fotay. I dig this division only because I have 19k .40 rounds.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKT1106 Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 If the price of Open guns continues to rise what will they cost five years from now, we are already seeing Open guns costing in excess of $5000, will they cost $6000 in five years ? Even Limited guns are costing over $3000 !! Are you saying you need to spend $5K to be competitive in Open or $3K in Limited? What actions has USPSA taken to open the sport up to more participation at a lower cost ? Production has always been low cost. Wanted modifications make it expensive. Production Optics is a low-cost division, why because it reduces the modifications that can be done to the gun, Open allows almost unlimited modification and the costs are rising each year. With PO we take the best part of Production (low cost for the base guns and reduced opportunity to modify) and the best part of Open which is the red-dot and put the two together. You think the same thing won't happen to PO that happened to Production? People will want more and more. It will become Open Lite like Production has become Limited lite. 1. Will it bring in new people, over 2000 people have purchased the M&P CORE (which is why it is now recognized for Production), why did those people buy a gun that can easily hold a red-dot scope... did they buy it just because they had some spare cash or do they plan to put a dot on it ? You think people won't actually do that just to have a pistol with a red dot on it? USPSA has, what, 25K members? How many gun owners are there? 2. Will it allow USPSA to retain more members who would otherwise quit because they cannot focus on the front sight and cannot afford a competitive Open gun ? Are you saying people have to spend $5K to be competitive in Open? 3. Will it encourage more sponsorship from Glock, S&W, Springfield Armory, Tanfoglio, Sig, FNS, CZ etc.. as they will now have TWO divisions where their equipment is competitive ? Do you really think those manufacturers think they are only competitive in one division? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gooldylocks Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 Has this horse not been beaten to death, back alive and dead again? I thought we were finally done here... Some people are afraid it will water down current USPSA competition. Others think that it is a pointless division, as "dots are for open." Still others say no one would shoot it. The other side says its a cheaper alternative to open, increases retention with aging eyes, it reintroduces reloads to the open division, and is a much more even playing field across platforms (same thought process as standard Production). Can't we just let it go already, and follow the updates as these few dudes shoot it and put on matches that offer it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gooldylocks Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 Looks like you had an FTE on the first video, on the leftmost popper of the 3 in the middle. Those look like awesome fun though, you guys do that every week? Watch again, it was engaged, we actually checked the shot timer to confirm Yep, every Thursday night Ah i see it now, the first time I watched it looked like you just shot at the middle left one twice. I wish we had a weekly practice match, that would be so fun! Or even a weekly steel challenge league with a couple of stages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKT1106 Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 Has this horse not been beaten to death, back alive and dead again? I thought we were finally done here... Some people are afraid it will water down current USPSA competition. Others think that it is a pointless division, as "dots are for open." Still others say no one would shoot it. The other side says its a cheaper alternative to open, increases retention with aging eyes, it reintroduces reloads to the open division, and is a much more even playing field across platforms (same thought process as standard Production). Can't we just let it go already, and follow the updates as these few dudes shoot it and put on matches that offer it? Why do I feel like you're addressing me after responding Britin's monologue before me? What is so much more even about it? There are still going to be rules and there will still be shooters way better than the rest, so we will be right back where we started. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted December 14, 2014 Share Posted December 14, 2014 (edited) i like the idea of a Facebook page .. gets us away from the people who just want to whine about the fact that they don't like something and are hoping everyone just magically decides to go along with their oponion. kind of like those that want to censer TV ... it's called an off button. Same hear.... don't like PO, fine. Just go away and let those of us that are interested talk about it. i don't care for IDPA ... at all. but i don't get on that subforum and and tell them their rules are stupid and that they should just shoot USPSA instead ... Edited December 14, 2014 by Nimitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted December 14, 2014 Share Posted December 14, 2014 +1 The weather is starting to turn bad in Colorado so I may not have many more opportunities to shoot PO this year, the goal for next year is to get another XDM and the new DeltaPoint and get this one milled into the slide, just to see how much lower it sits and what it does to the weight of the gun, I'm guessing that the material removed will probably be similar to the weight of the scope. I've had no issues with the DeltaPoint holding zero and I've shot s few thousand rounds through it in the past 6 months, so the technology seems to be ok. I just finished loading up a few hundred rounds so I can send my XL-650 back to Dillon for refurbishment, I've had this press for 16 years so it could do with some maintenance. I'll start posting videos of next years matches to my Blog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bkreutz Posted December 14, 2014 Share Posted December 14, 2014 I like the idea of a Facebook page as well. That way I'm sure I will never have to read it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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