RO's , What's your call on this one?

[toothandnail]

Shooter has a malfunction on his shotgun , when he cycles the bolt the charge handle breaks off.

He pulls the trigger , CLICK !

Dumps gun clears remaining targets with pistol , pistol/shotgun was optional on this stage.

SG was dumped with round in chamber , hammer down , safety was STUCK between safe and fire .

Rules are , dumped gun with round in MUST be on safe .

Does he get D'd for a weapon malfunction ?

[Outsydlooknin75]

Not on safe, shooter is done.

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[StealthyBlagga]

Not on safe, shooter is done.

Agreed. Sucks for him, but the rules are clear. How about the following alternative, and less obvious, scenarios

Scenario 2: The safety can be fully engaged (as is more likely for most shotgun designs) but the hammer is down on a live round. Under current rules, no DQ (keep fingers crossed there is no hangfire/slamfire).

Scenario 3: When the shotgun goes CLICK, the shooter switches it to his weak hand and finishes the course with his pistol strong hand only. All guns are kept pointing in a safe direction at all times. Under most IMA rules this would not be unsafe gunhandling, although if the WSB stipulated abandoning shotgun before drawing pistol, the penalty would presumably be one procedural per shot fired. Under USPSA rules, this may be prohibited by MG 5.1.9, but "abandonment" requires moving 1 yard away from the gun, so in theory the shooter could place the gun on the ground pointing downrange and shoot pistol with 2 hands so long as they stay within 1 yard of the shotgun.

Edited September 11, 2012 by StealthyBlagga

[AFH]

Assuming from your description that the shotgun was pointed in a safe direction and that the safety being stuck means it would not move to the safe position, the shooter is OK to proceed. It seems he did everything possible to both clear the jam and make the shotgun safe.

[outerlimits]

Assuming from your description that the shotgun was pointed in a safe direction and that the safety being stuck means it would not move to the safe position, the shooter is OK to proceed. It seems he did everything possible to both clear the jam and make the shotgun safe.

Sorry, Andy...that cannot be right. Gotta be a DQ.

[StealthyBlagga]

Assuming from your description that the shotgun was pointed in a safe direction and that the safety being stuck means it would not move to the safe position, the shooter is OK to proceed. It seems he did everything possible to both clear the jam and make the shotgun safe.

I respectfully disagree. If the rules say "safety on" then the safety should be engaged properly. Whatever the shooter tried to do is unfortunately irrelevant. From time to time we see folks being DQ'd because their safety gets moved off safe after abandonment; they also tried to abandon safely but nevertheless the gun was unsafe after abandonment so they earned a DQ. The RO cannot divine intent (as we often hear on this site), only outcome.

The proper response by the shooter is one of the option outlined in my post above (if allowed by the rules), or simply stop and declare their stage is over (no DQ, just a poor score).

Edited September 11, 2012 by StealthyBlagga

[steel1212]

Ah I see the issue, he couldn't engage the safety because he pulled the trigger. My question is if he pulled the trigger why didn't it shoot? So now he has a hammer down on a loaded shotgun? This is a tough one.

This is one of those situations where I think the USPSA/IDPA guys will disagree with the 3 gunner guys. The 3 gunner guys, like Mr. Horner, will see the gun as safe because its in a safe direction if anything goes wrong while people are down range. The pistol guys are going see the rule as saying it must be on safe and it wasn't. I saw this several times at the AR15.com match. I believer neither is wrong however but there has to be a answer. I lean more towards black and white rules, of course I do I shoot pistol lol. I also see the merit of the gun is safe as it can be and pointing in a safe direction.

[busyhawk]

After the shooter is done...somehow clear and recock the SG (without touching the safety) and attempt to fire the SG...if the hammer falls then the only thing to do is DQ the shooter. The shooter is responsible to leave the weapon in a safe condition...Malfunction or not!

As you said, rules were: "dumped gun with round in MUST be on safe."

StealthyBlagga brings up a very good point with Scenario 3...

Did you call for the RM and get the higher answer? If not then learn from your mistake...might not get the answer you want but you will sleep better at night

My .02 anyhow.

Busyhawk

[landshark45]

I would call it a DQ but have the MD check just in case.

[outerlimits]

Will stick with the DQ call. I have witnessed abandoned jammed pistols as well as one that fell to 1/2 cock, neither could have the safety engaged...both were DQ's...period. Let's not bring in judgement calls to something that is this clear.

[Flexmoney]

Rules are , dumped gun with round in MUST be on safe .

Seems pretty clear.

[Outsydlooknin75]

A dumped gun not on safe. Rules clearly state that the safety must be on when dumping. Rules don't say must be in safe condition. Granted the shotgun is in a safe condition if it has not fired, bur rules state safety must be engaged.

I'm sorry that the shooter has a malfunctioning gun and things broke, but the use of the word MUST kinda says it all. Its kinda like you came to a rolling stop....well either I stopped or I didn't which is it? If I stopped then I will fight the ticket, if I didn't stop I'll accept Tue ticket. The safety is either on or its not on. If its not on then shooter is done. Stuck inbetween is not on.

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[Lee King]

The problem as I see it is, you have a potentially unsafe, malfunctioning gun that you just abandoned. You could get into what ifs all day and probabilities of things happening. But can you guarantee, since we know it to be malfunctioning, it will not fire? If it fires, unattended, will it remain pointed in a safe direction?

[abn-rgr]

I used to carry a 223 round in my pocket for just this situation. My bolt handle fell off my benelli all the time before I went with a nordic. The 223 round allowed me to rack the shotgun if I lost my handle.

[co-exprs]

It sucks, but the prescribed penalty must apply. Either a match DQ, stage DQ, or the massive procedural some MDs prefer to use. The competitor does have the option of elevating the call to the MD for a second opinion.

Edited September 11, 2012 by co-exprs

[dcloudy777]

This is another (albeit rare) reason why the "safety on" rule needs to go. The shooter could neither clear the gun (broken charging handle) or engage the safety (hammer down). Gun dump barrel should be situated and designed so that the gun must be in a safe direction to go in. We're not "supposed" to rely on mechanical safeties anyway, are we (4 rules of gun handling)? Almost every long gun safety is only a sear block anyway, a falling gun is still liable to a firing pin-inertial discharge. A gun pointed in a safe direction without anyone manipulating the trigger is "safe". Adding a mechanical safety adds a very marginal degree of "safeness"... and IMHO mandating its use isn't worth the hassle. Flame away!

DanO

[StealthyBlagga]

This is another (albeit rare) reason why the "safety on" rule needs to go. The shooter could neither clear the gun (broken charging handle) or engage the safety (hammer down). Gun dump barrel should be situated and designed so that the gun must be in a safe direction to go in. We're not "supposed" to rely on mechanical safeties anyway, are we (4 rules of gun handling)? Almost every long gun safety is only a sear block anyway, a falling gun is still liable to a firing pin-inertial discharge. A gun pointed in a safe direction without anyone manipulating the trigger is "safe". Adding a mechanical safety adds a very marginal degree of "safeness"... and IMHO mandating its use isn't worth the hassle. Flame away!

DanO

Mechanical safeties vary in function and reliability - some certainly better than others. However, we already have folks literally throwing guns into abandonment locations. I don't think it is wise to remove the layer of safety afforded by a mechanical safety catch, however imperfect. I sure don't want to go down the path of requiring guns to be completely empty and all of the hazards that go with that requirement (rounds being burned hastily etc.). In general, our abandonment rules work well and provide adequate margins of safety - we just need to enforce them appropriately.

Edited September 11, 2012 by StealthyBlagga

[jjw]

i do not want to start a pissing contest BUT why should a shooter doing a correct movement as best he can, be penalized for a mechanical malfunction.

if a car catches fire no 1 is held to blame for it. its mechanical.

not sure this is going to be well received but we have so many nit picky riles now no1 can remember them all.

more importantly no 1 can craft a rule to cover every scenario. r.o's for 99.999% of the match i have shot, (only been shooting 3 gun 15 or so years) are very smart people and see a lot more f/ups'' than any individual shooter ever witness's.. let them mnake the call on knowledge and common sense.

a good r.o., and most of the are, should make the call on common sense. NOT the way 10 people interpret the rules 10 ways. with none being all right or all wrong. if its broke and in a safe direction how can u blame the shooter???

not meant to offend just my thoughts which tie into "toooo many picky little rules."

YMMV

jjw

Edited September 11, 2012 by jjw

[co-exprs]

It's the overapplication of nit picky rules which keeps our sport alive. Begin systematically stripping away layers of safety, based on fun driven justification and we will quickly find the safety threshold. In a bad way. Those shooters in the top tiers of any shooting sports not only recognize the need for multiple layers of safety, but embrace them and practice the mechanics of safety just as much as practicing pulling the trigger. Before every major match, my buddies and I get together and spend an entire day practicing safe abandonment and transitions, just to make sure it is all fresh and mistakes are less likely to be made. All winter long, when I can't get out to the range, I dry fire practice (when time permits). Transitions from one platform to another (including safe abandonment) in different scenarios is an active part of my dry fire practice.

In this particular case, the rules are clear and a DQ is warranted (if those are the rules of the match). If the MD chooses to give grace (as we have all gotten from time to time) then great for the competitor, but a DQ should be expected and is inarguable.

[CJW]

The basic situation is that the shotgun broke. Shooter equipment failures are not grounds for a reshoot or other alteration of the course of fire, so it was on the shooter to decide whether to stop right there and take his penalties for failing to complete the stage, or trying to go on. Nothing that I've seen in any set of rules allows equipment failure to override standard safety rules, so if the match rules say "empty or on safe, else DQ" then I think the shooter needed to stop at the point he realized he could not ground the gun in a safe condition, or face the DQ.

I think this situation is a really good argument for the current trend towards a stage DQ (rather than a match DQ) for an improperly grounded gun that is otherwise safely abandoned (i.e., safe direction, but not empty or on safe).

If I were ROing that, I'd probably call the DQ and and get the Rangemaster over for an opinion. Alternately, the RO could call a stop right then and there (if he realized the problem with the safety), the same as he would for a squib---force the shooter to stop for an unsafe gun and take the appropriate penalties for DNF, or get a reshoot if the Stop command proved unwarranted.

[DocMedic]

What match allows RO's to make DQ calls? That decision should only be deferred to the MD.

[Outsydlooknin75]

What match allows RO's to make DQ calls? That decision should only be deferred to the MD.

I've made a stage DQ call before at the Benelli shotgun match. Also bumped a shooter to open at the same match. Backed by RM on both calls no questions asked.

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[StealthyBlagga]

What match allows RO's to make DQ calls? That decision should only be deferred to the MD.

ROs always make DQ calls. Sometimes they can be appealed to the RM or MD. Sometimes they have to be confirmed by the RM or MD. However, the RO is the guy on the ground who makes the first call.

[Sarge]

not meant to offend just my thoughts which tie into "toooo many picky little rules."

Seriously? A gun that won't go on safe with a round in the chamber is a picky little rule?

Shoot a pistol match and have your gun go off by some mechanical breakdown when it shouldn't. DQ whether you caused it or not.

There might be too many rules or unclear rules in these games but no rule related to safety is a picky little rule.

[Stlhead]

I think that RO's should not make the DQ call. They should put the score sheet aside, call the next shooter to the line, and call for the match director. When the match director arrives, the RO (or RO's) give the story to the MD, who then makes the final call and informs the competitor. In this case if the rules call for a DQ for not having the gun on safe then that is clearly what is called for, but I very much think that a hot gun left muzzle down in a dump barrel should be a 30 second (or as determined by the rules) penalty and not a DQ.