JHP choices for Self-Defense

[gregshin]

I'm looking to a load a 9mm defensive JHP round. Locally around me there is a shop that carries Hornady XTP and Nosler 124gr JHPs.

is there other brand or sources i should be looking at?

[tac_driver]

find out what your local LEO's are using

and see if you can get the same bullets.

ex. mine use 147gr or 124gr Speer GDHP sub-sonic(147)

and +P (124)

then work up a load slowly in .1gr increments especially

when close to the MAX

[FightFireJay]

I purchase all my self defense ammo, I don't load it. For several reasons...

-liability

-reliability

-forensic reasons

-known performance

-peace of mind

-don't shoot much of it

-better bullets (fed HST)

-flash suppressed powder

If you are set on loading your own defense rounds, I would actually suggest you don't go for max velocity, instead a medium or quicker powder will likely give less muzzle flash than something like Long Shot (most shootings occur in Low light)

I usually purchase Federal HST from Streichers.com (cheaper than any store I know). They also have great prices on 50rnd boxes of Gold Dots.

Ranger T series is also considered premium, but difficult to get ahold of as distributors are only supposed to sell to LEOs.

I hope some of that helps.

[-Ace-]

Yeah it's not a good idea liability wise to load your own defensive rounds. I run mainly Rem golden bear 124gr jhp for all work and defense guns.

Check this out as well

www dot m4carbine dot net / showthread.php?t=19887

It won't let me post links so I edited to where you can copy paste etc

[polizei1]

I also don't load self-defense rounds. I use Speer Gold Dots 124gr.

[felt]

Just buy them, stop in at the local PD office and ask what they run... Buy what they use and test them. One less thing to worry about if force is required to end a threat.

If its good enough for the local pd, it won't be excessive force for you.

[GOF]

To the OP... there is much excellent Real World wisdom in the above quotes regarding factory ammo for self-defense.

Following it could save you much grief down the road.

I've been hand loading for over 40 years but I will not use reloads for SD. In 9mm consider Speer 124+P Gold Dot, Federal HST 124 or 147+P, or Win 127+P Ranger T. They are proven LE loads, and that counts in your favor if you every are so unfortunate as to actually have to use them for real.

[Poppa Bear]

The point I made to a class a couple of days ago about using hand loads for self defence:

No one has ever been convicted for using hand loads, they have been convicted for other reasons.

Hand loads are very likely to be brought up during the trial.

With your attorney getting anywhere from $125 to $500+ dollars an hour do you really want to spend that kind of money arguing over the use of hand loads?

I also brought up many of the same issues as listed above.

They all agreed it was not worth it just to save a couple of bucks over the cost of factory.

[rfwobbly]

Berry is introducing a new line of defensive bullets to compete with the Speer Gold Dots. These have much, much thicker plating than the regular Berry offerings. http://www.berrysmfg.com/products-c117-New_Hollow_Points.aspx

The 45 is already out and the 9 will soon follow.

[XD525Shooter]

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/HandloadsForDefense.htm

Golden Saber is another good expanding hollow point.

Edited September 16, 2012 by XD525Shooter

[FightFireJay]

www.berrysmfg.com/products-c117-New_Hollow_Points.aspx

The 45 is already out and the 9 will soon follow.

Where? They are not available on berry's website yet.

I would definitely want a bullet that had a proven performance record if I was reloading for self defense loads.

One must remember that prosecution will use EVERYTHING They can against you. I live in Arizona, probably the most firearm friendly state, and we have someone rotting in jail right now because he carried too much gun. Interviewed Jurors said that the fact that he carried 10mm played a part in them deciding he had intent to kill (not stop the threat) when attacked by a mentally unstable man and his dog while out hiking.

[RangerTrace]

I also don't load self-defense rounds. I use Speer Gold Dots 124gr.

This is our issued round for 9mm in +P

Edited September 16, 2012 by SV-COP

[Biloxi23]

My Agency uses Ranger T's, and surrounding agencies use Gold dots, Golden Sabers, and a couple use Federals. I think that the premium ammo line from any of the major manufacurers will provide more than acceptable performance. I would stay away from any on the "exotic"m ammo types you will see that have ear-catching names, like exploders, etc. They probably don't work any more efficiently than premium ammo,and like Poppa Bear wrote, do you really wnat to pay your lawyer for defending the name of your ammunition?

[The Guy]

I purchase all my self defense ammo, I don't load it. For several reasons...

-liability

-reliability

-forensic reasons

-known performance

-peace of mind

-don't shoot much of it

-better bullets (fed HST)

-flash suppressed powder

If you are set on loading your own defense rounds, I would actually suggest you don't go for max velocity, instead a medium or quicker powder will likely give less muzzle flash than something like Long Shot (most shootings occur in Low light)

I usually purchase Federal HST from Streichers.com (cheaper than any store I know). They also have great prices on 50rnd boxes of Gold Dots.

Ranger T series is also considered premium, but difficult to get ahold of as distributors are only supposed to sell to LEOs.

I hope some of that helps.

I have to agree. I have talked to my local PD as well as county and state officails for every state I've lived in (military guy) and everything I have been told is that reloading self defense rounds is never a good idea as FightFireJay said above.

If you ever had to defend yourself and you used hand load and went to court the prosecution would have a field day (my opinion). Look at the Travon Martin case, image how much worse it would be if he was a reloader and he hand loaded his self defense rounds. Just a thought.

[cnote]

Just buy them, stop in at the local PD office and ask what they run... Buy what they use and test them. One less thing to worry about if force is required to end a threat.

If its good enough for the local pd, it won't be excessive force for you.

this is almost word for word what was taught to me in a class about the judicious use of lethal force

[Alaskapopo]

I purchase all my self defense ammo, I don't load it. For several reasons...

-liability

-reliability

-forensic reasons

-known performance

-peace of mind

-don't shoot much of it

-better bullets (fed HST)

-flash suppressed powder

If you are set on loading your own defense rounds, I would actually suggest you don't go for max velocity, instead a medium or quicker powder will likely give less muzzle flash than something like Long Shot (most shootings occur in Low light)

I usually purchase Federal HST from Streichers.com (cheaper than any store I know). They also have great prices on 50rnd boxes of Gold Dots.

Ranger T series is also considered premium, but difficult to get ahold of as distributors are only supposed to sell to LEOs.

I hope some of that helps.

This is good advice. Don't reload your own self defense ammo.

Pat

[Alaskapopo]

I purchase all my self defense ammo, I don't load it. For several reasons...

-liability

-reliability

-forensic reasons

-known performance

-peace of mind

-don't shoot much of it

-better bullets (fed HST)

-flash suppressed powder

If you are set on loading your own defense rounds, I would actually suggest you don't go for max velocity, instead a medium or quicker powder will likely give less muzzle flash than something like Long Shot (most shootings occur in Low light)

I usually purchase Federal HST from Streichers.com (cheaper than any store I know). They also have great prices on 50rnd boxes of Gold Dots.

Ranger T series is also considered premium, but difficult to get ahold of as distributors are only supposed to sell to LEOs.

I hope some of that helps.

I have to agree. I have talked to my local PD as well as county and state officails for every state I've lived in (military guy) and everything I have been told is that reloading self defense rounds is never a good idea as FightFireJay said above.

If you ever had to defend yourself and you used hand load and went to court the prosecution would have a field day (my opinion). Look at the Travon Martin case, image how much worse it would be if he was a reloader and he hand loaded his self defense rounds. Just a thought.

Whole lot of other issues in the Martin case like ignoring the police dispatch when they told him not to follow the suspect and wait for police. But that is another thread.

Pat

[FightFireJay]

The 911 dispatcher didn't tell him to stop or instruct him not to follow. I believe it was "we don't need you to do that".

There are a lot of strange things about that situation and I don't know everything that happened that night, so I'll refrain from making judgements.

[DRider8]

If you are defending yourself in any manner when your life is threaten, you can use rocks as bullets and it would be justified. If you use a bazooka and it was your only means of protecting yourself I'm sure that would be justified. You have to use a little common sense. I don't think I've ever heard of or seen a case in which reloads have come up in relations to a justified shooting, have you?

[MarkCO]

I purchase all my self defense ammo, I don't load it. For several reasons...

-liability

-reliability

-forensic reasons

-known performance

-peace of mind

-don't shoot much of it

-better bullets (fed HST)

-flash suppressed powder

If you are set on loading your own defense rounds, I would actually suggest you don't go for max velocity, instead a medium or quicker powder will likely give less muzzle flash than something like Long Shot (most shootings occur in Low light)

I usually purchase Federal HST from Streichers.com (cheaper than any store I know). They also have great prices on 50rnd boxes of Gold Dots.

Ranger T series is also considered premium, but difficult to get ahold of as distributors are only supposed to sell to LEOs.

I hope some of that helps.

Actually, it hurts. The more that "gun culture folks" perpetuate errant "opinions", the more it hurts us. When enough people perceive something as true, it is easier for a jury and a prosecutor to use that against an otherwise innocent person, even if it is not true. The abundance of caution that perpetuated these myths had merit, however, it has now spiraled to the point where otherwise smart folks buy the myth without question...That is wrong! There is almost no truth in the "reasons" above!

-liability: There is not a bit of case law that suports this myth. If the shot(s) fired was justified, it was justified. There is NO SUCH thing as a "less lethal" bullet. Granted, effectiveness can be argued, but when firng a bullet, the intent is to stop the threat...end of story!

-reliability: I've shot several hundred thousand rounds, 3 duds other than rimfires, ALL factory. Again, for a competent reloader, there is just no truth that factory is more reliable.

-forensic reasons: From the perspective of a court recognized forensic expert (that would be me)...NO!

-known performance: Again, no support. There is a ton of data on bullet performance from a wide array of sources including medical examiner reviews of fatal shootings expressing opinions on damage from all types of bullets and ammunition types. There is even a testbook on the subject that is used for teaching purposes for LE and medical personel.

-peace of mind: I guess if you trust factory ammo more than yourself, you might have this one.

-don't shoot much of it: No merit in this theory either.

-better bullets (fed HST): Most of the best bullets are available to the reloader.

-flash suppressed powder: Nope. Higher pressure is what typically reduces the flash.

In many of the cases I work on, I have to "undue" these unfounded theories that the "gun culture folks" continue to perpetuate, even though they lack factual basis.

[gose]

124gr +P GDs for two simple reasons,

1) It seems to be the choice of PDs around here

2) Im too lazy to work up a self-defense load for the few rounds of full power loads I shoot in practice.

Ive been thinking of switching to the short-barrel version of it, but apart from the marketing stuff, I havent really seen any convincing reports/tests to sway me yet.

[OUshooter]

I will try to stay on topic. For .40 I like 165gr JHPs. For 9mm I like 124gr JHPs.

To echo Mark's comments I think its insane to draw a line in the sand and say handloads are any kind of liability in a defensive situation.

[twodownzero]

Quite insane. In fact, so insane, that I've not ever been able to find a reported case--in Westlaw or Lexis--that contained any mention of the word "handload" or "reload" within ten words of the word "gun" without talking about actually reloading the gun itself. A certain somebody who gets paid to be an expert witness in these cases has been spreading that myth for years, but if it's ever made it before a jury, it hasn't made it into any reported opinion I've found.

I use whatever self defense ammo I happen to have. That means Gold Dots, Ranger T, or Hornady TAP at the moment.

[FightFireJay]

A certain somebody who gets paid to be an expert witness in these cases has been spreading that myth for years, but if it's ever made it before a jury, it hasn't made it into any reported opinion I've found.

I think naming names here is appropriate, if the guy is spreading it as you say, then he won't mind his name being attached to it.

[FightFireJay]

Actually, it hurts. The more that "gun culture folks" perpetuate errant "opinions", the more it hurts us. When enough people perceive something as true, it is easier for a jury and a prosecutor to use that against an otherwise innocent person, even if it is not true. The abundance of caution that perpetuated these myths had merit, however, it has now spiraled to the point where otherwise smart folks buy the myth without question...That is wrong! There is almost no truth in the "reasons" above!

-liability: There is not a bit of case law that suports this myth. If the shot(s) fired was justified, it was justified. There is NO SUCH thing as a "less lethal" bullet. Granted, effectiveness can be argued, but when firng a bullet, the intent is to stop the threat...end of story!

-reliability: I've shot several hundred thousand rounds, 3 duds other than rimfires, ALL factory. Again, for a competent reloader, there is just no truth that factory is more reliable.

-forensic reasons: From the perspective of a court recognized forensic expert (that would be me)...NO!

-known performance: Again, no support. There is a ton of data on bullet performance from a wide array of sources including medical examiner reviews of fatal shootings expressing opinions on damage from all types of bullets and ammunition types. There is even a testbook on the subject that is used for teaching purposes for LE and medical personel.

-peace of mind: I guess if you trust factory ammo more than yourself, you might have this one.

-don't shoot much of it: No merit in this theory either.

-better bullets (fed HST): Most of the best bullets are available to the reloader.

-flash suppressed powder: Nope. Higher pressure is what typically reduces the flash.

In many of the cases I work on, I have to "undue" these unfounded theories that the "gun culture folks" continue to perpetuate, even though they lack factual basis.

I don't think these "theories" are going to affect how someone inside the gun culture acts while on a jury. I am more concerned with the uninitiated that only know what they know from Hollywood and politics.

-We have politicians that believe a 50 BMG round contains an incendiary device that makes it a heat seeking bullet that will hunt down airplanes...

-We are told that 90% of guns in Mexico come from the US... (video in next post)

-We are told Glock is making all plastic guns (again) and Black Talon hollow points are "cop killer" bullets that can penetrate armor with there teflon coating... (video in next post)

-We see on the TV Show Law and Order;Criminal Intent, an episode where "funny looking bullets" are mentioned, (Paraphrased)"He is casting his own bullets, heavier than normal, for increased lethality" (sorry, couldn't find a link

)

The misinformation is already out there. I am just trying to keep myself well clear of it.

On a point by point basis...

- Liability - justified or not, it can play a part in the trial, ask Harold Fish's attorneys and family. (I misspoke earlier, he was eventually released from prison and has recently passed away)

- Reliability - Not all reloaders are as competent as you. Would YOU advise ALL reloaders to reload their own ammo because it is more reliable than factory? I've seen folks who cant finish a stage or even a magazine with out ammo malfunctions.

- Forensic reasons - I was told by an investigator for a DA, that when factory ammo is used, and lot numbers can be traced, then forensic evidence can be confirmed, such as gunpowder stippling marks, to prove your story correct and it more difficult to prove this using handloads. Not being a forensic expert, I will defer to your knowledge on the subject.

- Known performance - If you buy a quality Self Defense hollow point, you can be assured it will perform adequately under most circumstances. They have done the ballistic and gelatin testing. If you load some Montana Gold JHPs, you are NOT doing yourself any favors. Most people may not know this, but they don't expand very much at all (possibly not at all beyond 9mm diameter)

- Peace of mind - This will vary by person, but when I reflect on my ammo choice, I know that I have done everything in my power to make the best choice available. I can rest easier and worry about other things, like the location of exits and whether or not my dinner burrito is going to give me heartburn.

- Don't shoot much of it - How many people do most of their shooting practice with their self defense ammo? Not many. I shoot more than enough to make sure my pistol will fire them reliably, and I shoot some more from time to time, but most of my shooting is with my reloads (that are not designed for SD)

- Better bullets - You are correct here, most quality bullets are available for reloading. However I can think of 1 (Federal HST) that is difficult to find (only ever seen them as pulled projectiles) and another (Winchester Ranger T bullets) are impossible to find and I'm still looking for Hornady FTX bullets. Gold Dots and Golden Sabres will certainly do the job. There are, however, many substandard hollow points available as both factory ammo and as components.

- Flash suppressed powder - I have to admit I know less of this than I want to. You may be correct. It doesn't matter, the fact is, without testing dozens of powders at several loads each, I will never know which ones I can load with the least flash available. I can say that my carry ammo has very little flash at night, compared to other rounds I shoot. Since I can't reproduce it, I don't try.

If you can go down this list and check off everything as being accomplished and you get that peace of mind, the by all means, load up your own self defense rounds

If you go down that list and CAN'T check them all off, then I have to recommend that you DON'T load your own self defense ammo.