Shooting Order

[Dead Buff]

I notice a lot of "difficulties" with shooting orders at matches. People complaining about the order/order has changed/they shot 2nd before, why first now/etc

The last Level III I shot I was in a very nice squad. We just handed our sheets to the RO and made sure no one shot first twice until all were through (some RO's then jokingly even re-mixed the pack ). All the RO's found this to be a breath of fresh air since all other squads always have to keep the order straight....

It annoys me when people start bickering about little stuff like shooting orders. I think the mix-and-match approach to be more fair as well, some less experienced guys get a chance to go after the more experienced went through the CoF (and vice versa).

What are your feelings on this??

[Matthew_Mink]

Absolutely does not matter what order I go in.

[davidwiz]

Since I usually shoot with the same group of people in local and big matches, we (as a squad) agree ahead of time to get a shooting order and moving each one down. I've been to a few big matches where the RO at a particular stage basically said, "screw this, I'm mixing the order up", despite the fact that we handed the RO the score sheets in order and the RO usually they wouldn't call out the order until mid-way through the "look over the stage phase."

The biggest problem with mixing them up and not calling out the order first thing, is that the person who is going first using the order knows that they are first, so they know that they need time to clean/load mags and get a chance to get a game plan for the stage. The person who is really first b/c of the shuffling now might have to make a terrible decision - clean/load mags or get a game plan for the stage. Most if not all of the time they choose the former and shoot the stage partially blind.

I guess what I would like is this - if you are the RO, and the squad comes to you with a predetermined order, don't shuffle up the order, respect the squad's wishes and get off your power trip. If you are the RO and the squad doesn't care about shooting order, please please please call out the shooting order before the walk thru starts, not 1 minute before saying "clear the range."

[.40AET]

The petty bickering pisses me off. At club matches someone always has to go "against the flow". I could care less about the whole thing. I go to have fun. Whatever the gereral concensus of the squad is for shooting order is fine. Sometimes the last guy to the stage gets to go first. The RO's at the local matches yuk it up and poke fun at the straggelers. After the last match, one guy volunteered to go first on every stage. I liked his attitude and would do the same thing. If a newbie is in the squad we ask if he would like to go last, so he can have a chance to watch everyone to get a plan together.

[TriggerT]

I could care less, just as long as I have enough time to look at the stage if I am going first. I will say, however, that if the stage has a lot of movers, it can be nice to be lower in the order.

[Jim Norman]

If the match has a squad list, we put our sheets in that order and roate through. You go where you go, when you go.

At local matches, we generally try to shuffle at the first stage and if we have a lot of less experianced guys, we will usually put them down a few places so that they can see how more experianced shooters run a stage. Once we have an order we try to stick to it until the last stage when the match Directors and Stage builders on our squad go to the top and shoot so they can station themselves at other stages to facilitate and direct the teardown and put-away of the match.

Our bigger concern is that we have too many people not taping and no one wants to brass anymore.

Jim

[Yoda]

From an organizers points of view (and from RO side) there is a good system which works well for everybody. It is often used overhere for level III and higher matches. You start with the squadlist and number the shooters. Shooter 1 is to begin at stage 1, shooter 2 at stage 2 and so on and so forth. That way everybody knows when they have to start first and it is places more or less evenly on all shooters.

This system only has one drawback ... every stage in the match must use this same system. That's why it is often mandatory. The RO's get the direction to use this system and not allow any other order as it jeopardizes the system for the other stages. I've worked quite a few large matches where this system has worked. It's a pity there are always some guys bickering about wanting their own shooting order. Most of the shooters are happy with it as it gives consistency to their order.

[mactiger]

Personally, I don't care when I shoot, as long as I know a couple of shooters ahead of time that I need to get ready. I do like it when the squad rotates the order, though--no guesswork involved.

When I RO, if the squad comes up with a pre-set order, then that order is followed absolutely. I never shuffle a pre-set pile of sheets.

And, I also try to call out the order just after reading the stage briefing, to the number one guy gets a heads up, as well as the next couple. I also insist that the order is called after each competitor, so people know when they are coming up.

Troy

[Jim Norman]

Yoda,

Your system is essentially what we do, but with a neat twist. If I understand you corrctly if my name is number 5 on the list, I would go first on the 5th stage of that match. Only problem that I see is what if there are more stages than squad members?

We take the order from the squad list and simply shoot in that order rotating one down at each successive stage. the top guy goes first on the stage we are shooting first.

It doesn't matter how other squads do it. They have no bearing on our order, no matter what we decide to do.

Troy,

I agree, if a squad has an order then I use it when I am RO. if they don't then I shuffle and ask one to pull or I just pull one.

Most important thing is to call the order 3-4 down after EVERY shooter so the people know where they are. This is esspecially important when the shooters don't have an order. Ususally after 3 days and 15 stages if you have an order and more than a few brain cells left you know where you are in line.

Jim

[Loves2Shoot]

I could care less as long as I know where I am.

[Dead Buff]

I see my spelling sucks...someone wanna put a spell-check into the forum....

Knowing the shooting order up front (before the walk through) is a must to me, but the order can be changed from stage to stage every time - I often prefer that...

Due to some grumpies we currently stick to a order and the guy who shot first goes to the bottom of the pack....initial sorting is done at random to stop bickering about " I wanna goes 3rd from top if he's 2nd last, but 5th if....."

[eerw]

I like mixing them up...

most important..is giving the lead off and on deck shooters enough time to be prepared..

we try and make sure no one goes first twice and you don't go first if you just went last on the stage before...

[Alan Meek]

Don't matter to me call the order and let's shoot.

Alan

[davidwiz]

If the squad I'm in doesn't want a shooting order, fine w/ me. What I really hate is when the RO that is running the clipboard doesn't call out the on-deck and in-the-hole person after every shooter.

[wlktheduk]

I don't care, just as long as I get to shoot the stage.

I do like having the RO's (or someone) announcing who's on deck, next in the hole, etc. (for planning purposes....and yes, I know what happens to my plan as soon as the buzzer sounds )

[uscbigdawg]

At US3GN, we first asked each squad do y'all have a shooting order? If not, we deferred to the squad list, checked with the first guy on the list if he had gone first already (out of courtesy) and then drove on.

In most cases squads already had a shooting order, which made my job and the CRO's job, much easier.

At club matches, who cares.

Rich

[.40AET]

At club matches, who cares.

I totally agree, but there are some nit-picky order freaks that simply can't live without specific order. Someone always has an episode because the scoresheets got out of order and they aren't next behind shooter X. One guy had to stop everything to figure out what went wrong with the rotation. I volunteered to shoot the stage in place of him if he couldn't get it together...So he was next, and that was that.

We're here to shoot? Right?

[hoser]

If the squad I'm in doesn't want a shooting order, fine w/ me.  What I really hate is when the RO that is running the clipboard doesn't call out the on-deck and in-the-hole person after every shooter. 

Well!!!!!

Guys, Denise and I stole an idea from Area 6 last year. We take a cheap dry erasable board to every match we work. If the squad does not have a set order, then after we shuffle the score sheets, we simply write down the order on the board and put it in a visible place.

No more calling on deck, in hole, etc. and the shooters can always tell when they are coming up in the order. Everyone is a winner.

Arnie

[mactiger]

Damn good tinkin', too, don't ya know.

Troy

[Matthew_Mink]

If the squad I'm in doesn't want a shooting order, fine w/ me.  What I really hate is when the RO that is running the clipboard doesn't call out the on-deck and in-the-hole person after every shooter. 

Well!!!!!

Guys, Denise and I stole an idea from Area 6 last year. We take a cheap dry erasable board to every match we work. If the squad does not have a set order, then after we shuffle the score sheets, we simply write down the order on the board and put it in a visible place.

No more calling on deck, in hole, etc. and the shooters can always tell when they are coming up in the order. Everyone is a winner.

Arnie

Yeah that worked really well at A3. I didn't even see the board until after our squad was done shooting your 2 stages!

That would also explain when you told me I was the one shooting, I said 'huh?'.

[short_round]

Absolutely does not matter what order I go in.

This reminds me of a line I heard while watching the Replacements (Keeanu Reeves, Gene Hackman) the other night on network television. "When the game is on the line a winner always wants the ball."

[BSeevers]

I like picking a order and dropping to bottom after you shoot. That way I know who I am after and can get ready easier.

It also allows everybody to go first once. Going first is usually not a big deal to me but there are sometimes tricks to a stage that you miss til you see a shooter run.

[Phil Dunlop]

We just stack the squad score sheets in competitor number order, with the lowest number going first on the first stage, then dropping to the back.

There are never any arguments and the consistency gives you the opportunity to prepare properly.

P.D.

[Neil Beverley]

I really like Arnie's idea.

I particularly like it because knowing the order is useful to the whole squad.

The problem with taking the squad list order occurs when there are 2 competitors battling head to head. If they are placed say 1 and 2 in the list then competitor 2 gets an edge over 1 by being able to watch his performance, and draw from it, on most stages.

In reality this is the simple example but a spacing of 2 or 3 competitors gives a bigger advantage to the second person because they have just a bit more time to think and adjust.

I experienced this to a degree at the ESC match last year and while it didn't bother me unduly there were times when I could see that it could work against me.

There's a funny story that happened to me in Arras in 1989 when they used a similar system to this. I was first up out of the squad on our first stage. A competitor got DQed on the stage. So at the next stage they counted down and muggins got called up first again. The same thing happened on the next stage. We also had a guy who was late (with permission) on one of the stages. Guess what? Yep! Muggins copped for it. I can't fully remember how it happened but I ended up going first 6 times out of 15 stages and with a good number of shooters in the squad. I got clobbered 4 times out of the first 6 stages. My mates thought it was hysterical. C'est la vie.

[slavex]

follow the order and drop one each stage. simple and fair to everyone. If an RO mixed up the order after we handed it in, in order, I'd bitch too. As a competitor, I spend a certain amount of time preparing, and going to the next stage with a prepped order, I know how much time I have. If an RO messes with that and I end being rushed to a start, I'd be pissed.