Shooter Participation- Got to do something

[bob7]

What I like:

1. Shooters that help design stages. Guess what? It helps you figure out how to shoot a stage better.

2. Shooters that show up early and help set up the stages. It helps out the match designer(s) shoot a better match because they're not totally exausted.

3. Shooter that help tear down the stages. Everyone can go drink a beer sooner when everyone helps out.

4. Shooters that help paste, score, and RO. Makes the match run faster to get home or to the beer.

Does this happen regularly, on a consistent basis? F--- no.

So, in the effort to stay positive, I'd like to suggest a few things. Hopefully, it won't go over like a lead balloon.

1. Require a RO class w/in one year of joining USPSA, and enforce it by having RO records turned in every 4th match. No ROing, no classification.

2. Same for helping out and designing stages.

No helping (setting up, tearing down, taping, scoring) for 4 matches in a row then no more classifiers uploaded.

No stage designing for 6 classifiers/matches, same.

Match director checks the box to verify participation.

Feasible? Probably not. But, the LAZY SHOOTERS ARE KILLING IT FOR THE HARD WORKING FOLKS.

Joining USPSA/IPSC and shooting matches is a social contract w/ your fellow shooters. Just paying money to show up and shoot is violating that contract. And, I know, all my suggestions will do is encourage sandbagging.

bob7

[rhino]

I will never support any mandate for slave labor.

The key word is "volunteer." If they won't do it, eventually they won't get to shoot. That's always a possibility.

[MikeFoley]

You bring up an interesting point. I travel to 4-5 local matches, some state and area matches, and nationals with a group of guys who always try to squad together, mainly because we all paste and reset, come to the line ready, help others, and maintain a close competition (friendly) within our squad. When we occasionally get teamed up with team shortbus, we "encourage them to work a little harder". We have a blast everywhere we go, and all of us are improving. Our system allows for the on deck shooter and the just finished shooter to prepare, do ammo management, or recover. Even though we are all currently certified RO's and run our local match, we don't like working other matches. We simply like to pay, shoot, and help without obligation. I would support a mandatory RO class, but not mandatory work. I don't understand them, but I appreciate the guys who just like to RO. Without them, there would be no nationals to speak of. On tearing down, a lot of the clubs we shoot ask you tear down the stage you finish on, and this works providing that the match directors announce that all squads have shot all stages, and it is safe to tear down. Designing stages can enable you to grow as a shooter, providing you forget your own equipment, abilities, and revenges. My 2 cents provided at no charge, I do not accept any liability for the misuse of my opinions that lead to accidents, disagreements, or domestic unrest.

[tightloop]

I always try to do a little, but I have taped, officiated and been the MD for more years than most of these kids have been alive...hope they understand that...

[Barrettone]

I agree that something must be done, but holding peoples classifications hostage is not the answer. I feel your pain bob7, as I am a match director, and regular RO at our club. However, you get more with sugar than salt. You have to cajole and prod (ever so gently), and motivate people in a positive way. You simply have to be more pro-active in getting them involved in the match production aspects of USPSA. I took the approach of hooking my friends on the sport, and bringing in newbies whenever possible. Now after doing so, our club took it a step further. we went on an education blitzkreig that started with taking them to an "IPSC 101" class that one of our other senior members taught. Then we implemented an intro to club level RO'ing, that basically got them on a clipboard. Then we put on level 1 and level 2 classes which got them a little stage design experience. Finally we capped it off with an Match Directing class. End result: Out of a 160 member club, we have 20 RO's, 15 CRO's and 14 match directors. All done within 3 years!!! Hell, we host our own tournaments with virtually no outside help, and provide 3 RO's to a stage!!! We have spread the burden around, and now have excellent quality matches without the burnout factor being as evident. All this was done with sugar...not salt. I simply explained that they needed to help their club, and that it would help further their understanding of the game. The key was, getting them early on. It also helped that we, as a club, decided to let RO's shoot for free. This made it more affordable for the beginner. We also made it mandatory to work at setting up 2 matches as a condition of gaining membership into the club, whether you were an IPSC shooter or not. This guarantees a fresh pool of labor for the MD's every month. We simply get them when they want something from us (a membership). Granted, though, we are primarily an IPSC club, so we can write our own rules so to speak. As for pasting and picking up brass, we mention it at the shooters meeting, and the RO's reinforce it at their walk-throughs. People usually fall into line if you are forceful enough in how you present it. Simple phrases like "we ain't your mamma" go a long way. Maybe some of the above situations might help your club to get that much-needed help that you speak of...just a thought. Hope this helps.

Jeff

[raz-0]

I always help out as much as I can. One place I tend not to though is doing the RO job.

If you run short of ROs a lot, doing something to get more people comfortable ROing would be a good plan. Some folks like me just aren't comfortable learning on the job, and don't do a terribly thorough job getting it by osmosis while we have other things on our minds.

[Turtle]

With volunteers, you have people who are doing something that they want to do, not what they're forced to do. Consequently, they take a certain "pride in ownership" of the job they do. Hopefully we can encourage new people to step up and pitch in, as they have done over the years.

[Dead Buff]

We have the same problems that bob7 sits with - everybody wants to shoot, only 2-3 want to RO's and only a total of 4 to do the work (setting up and breaking down). I am the only one doing ALL stage designs and match organisation.

I now have started on a little war:

- everybody must submit 1 stage design 4 weeks before the match. These are kept on file and we thus have enough stages to shoot for a long time.

- 2 competitors get assigned 1 stage to build and it must be complete 0.5 hours before registration on the shooting day - including targets....

- everybody tears down after the shoot

- the complete squad will help to patch and pick up brass at the same time (excluding shooter on line and just completed) - yes, even the sick/lame/lazy can help

- at least 2 RO's are assigned to each squad

Compliance with the above earns you a reduction in entrance fees - so the other pay to have it done indirectly (yes, match fees have been raised by that much for all!)

It sounds a bit like forced slavery, but if all want to have fun, all must help. All other methods have failed - let you know if this works.....

[rhino]

In my experience, asking for help from the crowd to help with setup, teardown, and running the match doesn't work as well as approaching/calling specific people and asking them specifically to help. There were a couple of time when I was stuck in bed with my back problems and I learned through the grapevine that my home club was in need of help for a specific match. I went through my phone book and called people and asked them to help with specific jobs and everyone seemed happy to be asked and happy to help. It worked nicely.

So if you're in dire need, I think the one-on-one plea for help, in each case for a specific task of job, works better than the "we need more help!" approach.

[JFlowers]

Several of the local matches in the Charlotte area have a simple method to increase worker participation..... you show up early and setup a stage and you shoot for free. Nothing madantory, no hostages, only a reward for the volunteer efforts of those who are willing to help. Yes, its usually the same 10 or so people setting up stages at all the matches, but it keeps the match directors from having to do it all.

[rhino]

Another thing to try is to have either a meeting to schedule all of the stages for the season, or do it for the next match during the current match's shooters' meeting.

You tell them you want to have five stages and need five people to volunteer to pick a stage, set it up, and get all the help they need for that and to run it.

If no one volunteers, you then say, "Okay, we're having four stages next month."

No volunteers? Keep going until you have to say, "No match next month. We'll try again the following month."

People will volunteer.

At my original home club, the late, great Coal Creek Gun Club, we used to have a meeting in January to plan every match for the year. We asked for volunteers to be responsible for one stage for one match at a time. They either had to set it up and RO it, or get help, or get someone else to do it, but they were responsible for it no matter what.

In most cases, any one person would only have one stage for the whole year unless they wanted more (and most did). We never had to cancel a match, but sometimes we only had three stages in the match.

[tightloop]

I agree with Rhino, when there is no match, they will start to help.

[bob7]

Thanks,

Thanks for not jumping all over me for the dictator-like idea. I don't like a forced labor environment either, but I was at a real loss for how to increase the help that's needed to put on a match. I think the lowering of the cost for those that help out is a fine, fine idea. However, I detest having to be the heavy or having to ask people to do what they should already be doing. Having a rule or policy from above gives every club president or match director a fair, even course of action with which to deal w/ the slugs. Arbitration could even exist for match directors/club presidents that abuse the policy.

Also, I read alot here about the us vs. them, RO vs. shooter mindset battles. Instilling the imperative role that RO's provide our sport early in a new shooter's thinking, by including a mandatory class, might go a long way to reduce this problem. Thus, being an RO, even if it's every few months and helping out at every match, gets you to that goal of a GM card.

I appreciate Dear Leader Voigt's comments about helping out at the beginning of the rulebook, but a lot of people seem to ignore it. For me, and maybe for others, the situation requires a drastic step from the USPSA/IPSC body. It's that bad in some clubs I've shot at and/or been a member at.

So far, I like Barrettone's ideas the best.

Anyway, thanks for keeping the discussion civil, and keep feeding me the good ideas.

bob7

[shred]

I always liked the "$5 extra to leave without helping tear down" fee at registration. A few people took advantage of it and left early, but they were the ones leaving early and not-helping anyway. Everybody else got a nice reminder of what their duties were and the club got a few extra $ to spend on the helpers.

A lot of it also comes to new shooter-educating. If you've got new shooters in the squad, make sure they get the whole match experience, right down to puttting the toys back in the box at the end of the day. If you explain this is part of the match from day 1, it helps a lot.

[BigDave]

The likelyhood of "not having a match b/c noone wants to help" is slim to nil. It is great to talk about, but I've never heard of it happening. What generally happens is there is a core group of people, 6-8, who end up shouldering 85% of the work it takes to put on a match. My take is that if you're willing to pay the monthly match fee, you should be willing to participate in some capacity. Yes, it is a volunteer sport, but it should not be the kind where only a few volunteer for the betterment and enjoyment of many. That is what State, Section and Nationals are for (I'm speaking in generalities here).

One thing I've seen at monthly matches that I really like and seems to work well during the match is that the scorekeeper, when the shooting order is announced, gives tasks to everyone:

A is up

B is on deck

C is in the hole

D, E and F brass

G, H and I tape and steel

It works very well. This also requires running of larger squads (8-10), but it speads the burden across many shoulders and peopel don't feel so rushed all of the time. It is much more of a relaxed atmosphere. Is it slave labor? No, not in my opinion. But, brassing and taping and setting steel are required to run each shooter through the COF and I think each shooter should feel obligated to return the favor that others paid him to make her/his run possible. What I'd love to see is the chronic "I ain't doing squat" shooter get to the line and her/his targets aren't pasted and steel not reset.

Whether people should be obligated or not is a matter of debate, obviously. Whether people should be made to feel obligated is a different story altogether.

my $0.02

[Ron Ankeny]

Our little club is in jeopardy because of burn out. Four of us have been doing it all (most) for the past three years and one of the guys stopped. That leaves three of us and I have had enough so that takes us down to two guys. Last match I spent two and a half hours setting up the night before and another 3 hours the morning of the shoot. One guy showed up to help put the finishing touches on the two stages I designed about an hour before the match. After the shoot I go home to do the scores, then I paint more targets, fix props, etc.

Honestly folks, the guys who are suffering from burn out really don't get a heck of a lot out of a local match because they are a pain in the butt and just cause frustrations. I would be better off shooting in practice regularly, and attending 4-5 big matches a year. I would probably shoot better and learn more to boot.

[mpolans]

I think incentives are a better idea. A club I shot at before let people who set up and tear down shoot for free. People working as ROs got a discount on entry fees. If this means you have to bump entry fees for those that don't help out, go for it.

[ima45dv8]

What I'd love to see is the chronic "I ain't doing squat" shooter get to the line and her/his targets aren't pasted and steel not reset.  

That's precisely what we did to one of our regulars on week. He's sort of chronic when it comes to fu##ing off at matches, and despite our best efforts at encouraging him to help he just wouldn't. So, one night when he walks out onto the range just in time to shoot, we handed him a roll of pasters and told him to get busy.

He's still a jerk and a screw-off, but that one moment was priceless.

[Barrettone]

Rhino is absolutely on the mark when he says we need to be one-on-one with people to get them involved. It has to be personal, and it helps to show them how it helps THEIR club. People seem to do well at our club if they are given direction. I also like Big Dave's advice for calling the shooter, on deck shooter, in the hole, and then pasters and setters by name...Man, I gotta use that one!!!

Jeff

[bob7]

I'm not going to beat my position to death because I'm probably wrong. Yes, BigDave's idea about the shooter lineup is an excellent idea. But, why should the observant, hardworking, helpful shooters have to kowtow, kiss butt by calling and conjoling the people that know they're wrong by not helping and are too lazy to make a change. Pardon this simple analogy. It's like when people drive when talking on their cell phones. They know they're not suppose to do it, but they make exceptions for themselves in that instance, which usually turns into all the time. These shooters do the same thing; "I won't help this time. Somebody will cover me." Next thing we know, the club is dead. What they really need is the slide of my pistol wrapped around their head .

Thank you for all for the excellent ideas. Maybe USPSA/IPSC can make a concerted effort to emphasize this issue like in the instance w/ the flashy but unsafe "rack and catch" UASC at the end of the stage that can result in a KABOOM. No rule change, just highlight how much lazy shooters are taking away from this sport.

bob7

[Barrettone]

Hey bob7,

You might be misunderstanding my point a bit. It is a cascading effect. I'm not insinuating that you need to be paster-cop. Rather, start by educating a core group to help with the match production aspect. After training your minions, and indoctrinating (brainwashing?) your core match staff in the way things need to be, they will go out and spread the word to squads, and participation will become commonplace (ie shooters doing their fair share of the work on the squad). It has to be a club-wide thing, that is brought on by peer pressure, not RO pressure. You see, your minions are not ALWAYS going to be RO'ing, they will be shooters some weeks too. When they are in the "gallery", they tend to push others, and set a good example. After a while, people come to your club knowing that they better pull their weight, or they can go home. Hence our often spoken mantras at the shooters meeting: "we ain't your mamma", and "save the drama for your mama" when they present excuses. This is a participation sport, and if they are well enough to shoot, then they are well enough to police brass and tape. I fully understand your point, but there is a way to be passive-aggressive with the issue without having to single people out and give them a "slide upside the head". It starts with your nucleus, and you work out from there. It takes a year or two to set the precedent I speak of, but the sooner you establish it, the better off you will be, and the less burnout will affect your club. We seldom have this problem, so I feel that it has proven itself effective without causing a confrontational atmosphere, as it is done in a group setting. Hope this helps to explain my point(s) better. Now don't make excuses (like they do)...it works...get to it!!!

Jeff

[raz-0]

well, another idea, is make sure you get feedback from the helpful folks about who the drag-asses are.

Then squad all those folks together and put that squad last in rotation. They might get the point if all of the sudden everyone is sitting around and nothing is getting done. Even if they don't get the point, they might just go away. Also, if the helpful folks lap them and start following them around tearing stuff down.. well...

[Rising Sight]

I have only been to two matches so far. I help tape every time somebody is done shooting(other than myself). If other people start to tape before me I just start picking up brass. Most of the people that I have seen seem to be doing something. I do need to learn to do more. I would feel like a real lazy ass if I didn't do anything at all to help out.

[Robert Snyder]

Why is it that anyone would want to have shooters just go away or determine some sort of punishment? Is that helping the Sport? I was at one match where the MD happened to be on our squad and it got to the very last stage when he barked out that if he see's anyone on the squad not pasting or setting steel that he would DQ them for the Match and not invite them back! Not exactly the way to win friends in my book. He said that he would use "unsportsmanlike conduct" to base the DQ on!

I am disabled at 100% from the VA and SS and have now been asked to walk with a caneby my Docter. Which is OK by me. I usually can make it thru a normal Match but to insist that I do more could affect my strength to finish the Match. I know that I am not the only one in that posistion! I know that there are some people that have no excuse for not helping but is everyone here judging all of us the same? IPSC does not even have a class for people with disabilities but they do for everything else!

Maybe if people would try to approach others as human beings instead of demanding and threatening you might have better luck and you would not make someone such as myself not want to show up and give you My Money to shoot YOUR MATCH!

We staff the matches that we have at our club and greet people with a smile and a handshake! We always have a great time and when the match is over (or people run out of ammo) we might sit around and chit-chat with a soda or water for hours! Then we put everything away and go home. Works for us!

Maybe a human touch would help!

[Rising Sight]

Robert Snyder,

I really don't think anybody would be giving you a hard time about not helping out. A disability is about the only excuse I can think of to not help out.