Flexmoney Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 Ron, Glad to hear it worked out this month. Keep it up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
titandriver Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 Funny that this thread appeared again after what transpired at our club yesterday. We hold two big matches annually at our club, Gem County Speed Shooters, in addition to two monthly matches. After dealing with folks that have the same attitude as Jake over the past fourteen years, to wit: I paid to shoot so no one is going to require me to do anything", we decided to refuse to accept their entry into the match. This way, not having a place to shoot matches will only suck for them! And guess what? They weren't missed one bit! Rich Redovian Owner of two businesses, one ranch, Idaho Section Coodinator, Gem County Speed Shooters Match Director, father & grand father, work a minimum of 70 hours per week, whose time is not as valuable as some other self important people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 Oh, I'm self important because I have better things to do? More power to you if you have the ability and desire to do all that. I don't. But just because I dont have the inkling to do that, don't call me self-important, you have not earned the right. That being said. I'm sorry if I stepped on anyone's toes. I am not going to reply or even look at this thread anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Moneypenny Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 I'm very glad that we have shooters who have the time and energy to put into tearing down/setting up and all the like at the matches. I drive almost 3 hours to my CLOSEST uspsa match and 2 for any IDPA even. here are my ideas. if you aren't making enough money to pay for supplies you damn sure better raise the price of matches. how many shooters do you clubs have, i don't see how ONE or TWO people who don't help tear down/set up are making that big of a difference. When i am told i HAVE to stay and help tear down instead of drive back home or to my girlfriends.... maybe i won't shoot. .. when we had one local club i did go and help both set up and tear down. with with 70-80 shooters it would be nice if everyone stayed and helped, but confusing as hell too. lets bust a young shooters balls for attempting to be a successful shooter, run businesses, etc. ooh yeah good represenation for our sport.. YOU pay, AND you WORK... in todays society that won't get far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 Jake: First off, I wasn't trying to flame you so please don't take offense. We don't need a flame war. I do understand that some folks are just plain bankrupt in the time department. I don't doubt for a minute that you are one of the good guys with a full plate. What I was trying to say, and didn't do it very well, is a lot of people feel like if they pay, they shouldn't be expected to work, and I suppose that's true. Shooters certainly have the right to hand us 10 bucks, shoot the match then split. In your case, you probably need to make a sacrifice just to show up. But we have retired guys and regular 8-5 folks with plenty of spare time that are just plain lazy and don't give a darn about pitching in to keep the sport alive. Steve: At the match yesterday we had 14 shooters and 12 of them were from out of town (4 were considered locals only 22 miles away). Four drove 240 miles round trip and two came from Idaho. For the last four years, 3-4 of us have designed all of the courses of fire and do the majority of the set up. In Wyoming we have a club in Jackson, one in Riverton, one in Casper, and one in Cody. A turn out of 20 shooters for a club match is huge. Statewide, I would venture to say 12 people do 90 per cent of the work. That just plain sucks. There are times that I have paid fees at neighboring clubs and didn't even take the time to shoot because I was busy running the stats. I have even hauled our props to neighboring clubs and set up courses because the other club is short handed and the MD needed help. I still paid to shoot, tore down, hauled the stuff home and packed it away. Those of us who have spent a lifetime working our collective asses off to see the shooting sports grow and prosper have a hard time relating to the folks in today's society who feel like we owe them something. After 25 years of giving feely I have become cynical and bitter. It's called burn out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve223 Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 (edited) Steve i am not trying to bust Jakes balls He brought it up. My time is valuable to me also but like jake said if i dont do it it wont get done!And i would like to have a match to shoot. I drive 2 hours one way to 3 matches a month myself and i dont get to them intime to set up but i allways stay to help tear down. The club i run and the other 2 that i shoot at think 20 people is a big match,And the norm is 10 to 15. We dident have 80 shooters at our sectional match. I under stand whereJake is coming from, The guys i am talking about have time to shoot 2 guns and stand around BSing until its time to tear down then remember that they are late for something and this happens every match. Steve Edited August 23, 2004 by steve223 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 We have at our club, people that drive 10 minutes and people that drive 2-3 hours to shoot our matches. It is about even as to the mix of show up early and stay late vs. shoot and scoot. Distance seems to make little difference. It is attitude of the person. I also have a business and a family. I travel a minimum of 45 minutes one way to get to the club, usually 3 hours before first shot and stay till the last item is put away. If I am shooting at an away club, I generally try to get there early, but I almost always stay to tear down. One main reason is that if I don't (Everyone repeat after me) If "I" don't no one else will. See if we all take the attitude that someone else will, sooner or later no one else will and we all will have no match to shoot. If you can't get there early and you can't stay late, fine by me. Can you design stages? Print scoresheets? Do the scores? Run a website? Can you do any of the myriad jobs that need to be done? It is not all carrying of walls and running screwguns. There is a tremendous amount of work before and after the match that needs to be done. Pitch in there. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Moneypenny Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 I think some of us live in 2 seperate worlds. where jake lives he only has time to shoot one match. heck i witnessed near 100 shooters JUST AT A PRACTICE STAGE, ONE STAGE. this place we did help set up but left early as it was freezing. we average about 100 ish GUNS. which means about 60-75 people shooting through. (some do reshoots) jake has commented that there local matches have NO reshoots because of that number of people. so i think we are coming from two different ends of the spectrum here. one has WAY to few people the other has an abundane of people. just some thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve223 Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 I think some of us live in 2 seperate worlds. Steve I think your right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted August 24, 2004 Share Posted August 24, 2004 . . . I paid to shoot so no one is going to require me to do anything", we decided to refuse to accept their entry into the match. This way, not having a place to shoot matches will only suck for them! And guess what? They weren't missed one bit! In my opinion, that kind of attitude and behavior hurts the sport a lot more than people who want to just pay and shoot and go home. It may be a volunteer sport, but it's not slave labor. I wouldn't shoot at a club that excluded people that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted August 24, 2004 Share Posted August 24, 2004 Yes, we do live in different worlds. I was going to mention that, but it's obvious from the posts. In the sparsly populated areas we are struggling to survive, where some of you guys probably wish half the folks would take up golf just to make the math easier to administer, lol. rhino: Believe it or not I have actually considered making working the match a prerequsite to shooting, but I backed away from such a notion. Like Steve said, it's a different world out here. Here's an example. I told one of the regulars at our club that with impending burnout we needed fresh blood and some help from folks who know the ropes. I told the guy if he and others like him didn't pitch in and help the club would eventually wither and die. His reply was. "That's too bad." He still doesn't help and he doesn't intend to lift a finger. Why do I continue to provide recrational opportunities for that bonehead? To keep the club alive. Just like Rich, I wouldn't miss him... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NMinzghor Posted August 24, 2004 Share Posted August 24, 2004 our section actually implemented a $5 price break if you hold r.o. certification and $10 price break if you are a working r.o. at the match. Is it helping I don't know...jury is still out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 24, 2004 Share Posted August 24, 2004 Our shooting club used to give out a $50.- break on annual dues if you worked on a work party or helped with the set-up of a match. That used to be a good way to reward the regular members of the set-up crew, but unfortunately the system was abused, and the Board decided that only the Match Director, the Assistant or Co-Match Director, and two others could earn the credit in any calendar year. And the Match Director/Assistant couldn't decide to not use their credits and transfer them to others..... People drifted away from helping --- and our crew of regulars is in various stages of burnout. Here's my take: It's a volunteer sport. Help --- in whatever way you can. If all you can do is RO/Scorekeep/Paste/Reset because time constraints keep you from helping during set-up and tear down, that's fine --- just set an example for the rest of the squad/relieve the people who did set-up, so they can at least catch a break during the match. If you have physical limitations that prevent you from erecting walls, lugging steel, etc. I still need people to staple targets, drive spikes, watch for shoot throughs while we position targets, and to drive a golf cart delivering supplies to the stages..... If you have the time to show up early or to stay late and want to stand in the parking lot shooting the breeze instead of helping, that's o.k. too. If you then can't be othered to help with the actual work involved in getting your squad through the stage, that's also o.k. --- but I don't want to hear any complaints about the match administration or stage design/set-up. You can expect to shoot and to be treated politely and scored fairly --- for as long as we decide to continue to run the match. It doesn't take doing a whole lot for me to consider you a contributor instead of a leach. USPSA is a small community, and it's your reputation. Which do you want to be known as? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
titandriver Posted August 24, 2004 Share Posted August 24, 2004 Just to clarify two things in my post, nothing personal against Jake, only the attitude he expressed. Secondly, the people that I refuse to be a lackey for were NEVER asked to perform slave labor! They were asked to help tape targets, brass, set & paint steel and to stay with their squad until the entire squad was finished. Sounds like common curtesy and respect for your fellow squadmates instead of "slave labor" to me! I require no one to help set up or tear down, only that they adhere to the above common curtesies. In accuality, we have only a few who behave so rudely. They are the ones who never want to shoot first on a stage unless it's the final one of the day. They shoot, sign their score sheet and head for their vehicle and leave. That may be acceptable behavior at your range, it's not at ours. Consequently, I feel no pangs of guilt, nor that I am damaging our sport, when turning away this type of individual. And mind you, this type of behavior has been demonstrated by them over a period of time, these aren't novice shooters being turned away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted August 24, 2004 Share Posted August 24, 2004 If you have the time to show up early or to stay late and want to stand in the parking lot shooting the breeze instead of helping, that's o.k. too. If you then can't be othered to help with the actual work involved in getting your squad through the stage, that's also o.k. --- but I don't want to hear any complaints about the match administration or stage design/set-up. You can expect to shoot and to be treated politely and scored fairly --- for as long as we decide to continue to run the match. Amen to that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Buff Posted August 24, 2004 Share Posted August 24, 2004 We just set up our CoF this weekend for our Nationals next weekend. The total amount of people who set-up the game.............5 + 2 (who came after all was done due to no fault of theirs...) Our nats aren't big by any standard and we don't attract any international shooters yet...maybe next year....the round count: ±150 over 8 stages..... It not worth it to go bigger than that with the help at hand. We have 19 bays (20x60m), 1 bay (15x125m) and 3 bays (5x10m) - no way in h#ll that 7 guys are gonna populate that area with a 300+ round shoot if its just not worth it.... All the above tips haven't helped squat - even dropping a match or two....So now I do it all for me! and only me! You pitch and help - great, if not - I don't care...I have fun shooting and will try to go to WSXIV (with a bank loan....) at least with this sytem I have grown the membership by over 300% so the money for targets and props is comming in.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toddrod Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 I attended a match last week and the the start of the match the president announced that because so many shooters were leaving before tear down that they would start DQing shooter for unsportsmen like conduct if they left early without having a good excuse not to help tear down. It worked, not one shooter left early. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grassy knoll Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 as match director, it is easier for me to get help with a direct request to each person than a broadcast to everybody, I have guys that don't shoot at all but come out just to help, myself I haven't shot a match since last August but I RO at matches and MD at our club the way I figure it is that everybody does the best they can and when a judgement is made about helpers sometimes they don't know the whole story, I have guys who help set up all day the day before the match just so they can concentrate on shooting the day of the match, other people don't see the contribution they made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 It would be helpful if the guys who are shooting at clubs where they DQ people for not helping or refuse to allow them to register would post the name and location of the clubs. I'd like to know because I would never shoot at such a club if I were visiting the area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooterj Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 The "threat" that toddrod is talking about was aimed at two or three speciffic people. These guys are always the "last to show and first to go". These same people don't help during the match either (taping, setting steel, or picking brass). I was there also and something needed to be said. There is another club in the area that requires all members to work just one Saturday set-up per year or come out early on Sunday to staple targets and paint steel. These same people would rather pay exrta $ for membership fees than put in a couple hours work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 rhino: If you visit our club (or any other club in Wyoming), you will be greeted with open arms and all we ask if for you to do your part as far as helping the squad with taping, etc. In fact, most newcomers are so busy visiting with our members they don't even get a chance to work even if they want to help. On the other hand, if you were a local/regular and and couldn't be bothered to help out once in a while, you probably wouldn't feel very welcome. It's a matter of survival. As you have gathered from previous posts, we are in different situations. I too find it sad that a club must threaten to DQ shooters for leaving without helping to tear down. What that tells me is the same old crew has been doing all of the work for ages and they have had enough. BTW, last Saturday I drove 100 miles to shoot with the guys at Ghost Town Shooters. There were four guys setting up three stages. We ended up with five shooters total for the match. When the gunsmoke cleared, I started tearing down right alongside the others. Can you imagine how those guys would have felt if I just drove off? I suppose they would have labeled me a self centered, unappreciative butt hole...and rightfully so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooterj Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 Ron, you hit the nail on the head. Burn-out is getting the best of me and many others. These were not newbs, in fact, some have been around since the early '90's. They know exactly what they are doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidwiz Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 We lost a club in our area b/c no one would step up and take over being MD (who had been doing it almost by himself for the past 15 or so years). What I really dislike are the "shoot and scoot" shooters - those who show up right before the match starts, so they aren't able to help setup, and then either leave a stage or two early or leave right after they finished their last stage, so they don't help take down. That contributes to burnout b/c it is then the same people who setup/tear down - and the shoot and scooters never volunteer for any admin work for a match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 We lost our IDPA program completely at my home club because no one wanted to run the matches after the former guy moved away. No one seemed very upset by it, but when people ask me about it, I make sure to tell them we'd be happy to let them run the matches. I understand the frustrations and I don't see any problem with a little peer pressure, but when threats of DQs and refusals arise, it's absolutely unacceptable in my book. That's just how I feel about. I'm probably soundling like a broken record here, but it's a volunteer sport, not a slave labor sport. I choose to not even try to become a member at the closest "real" shooting club to my house (that is anything beyond a simple place to shoot) because they do the slave labor thing. It's probably the best shooting facility in Indiana, but as long as mandatory work hours are part of the membership, I have no interest in being among them. The fact that it's almost trivially easy to get the work hours done (keeping scores, wrangling a clipboard, whatever) and I'd do a lot more than the minimum required is entirely beside the point. It's the principle. I doubt if they consider it any loss to be without me, but that's how I vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooterj Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 rhino, how does one or two hours per year qualify as slave labor? Heck, you even get to pick the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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