Strick Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 First of all, based on how this was described, improper range commands were not given. The Range Commands begin with "Make Ready" and ends with "Range is Clear." Anything in between those commands is covered by the rulebook......anything said outside of all of that is fair game. To say otherwise, that would mean the RO cannot utter a single word except for the range commands. Now to have a lot of chatter and distractions going on while the shooter is listening for "Make Ready" can cause some confusion......but let's make sure that is characterized as such and not called improper range commands. +1 to that. It is not a range command, it was a statement. Trying to use any words outside the approved range commands as a way to get out of a DQ is disingenuous. I wouldn't ever want to be a RO if anytime I said something it would be called an improper range command. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Harrington Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 When I run shooters through a weird stage with walls etc. I make it a habit to be the last one off the range. I always stay downrange watching the tapers until they make their way back. I stay away from the next shooter making sure everyone gets back until I'm ready to give the make ready command. That way there is no question when it is given. This. There is no reason to scream that the range is going hot. As the RO, you should KNOW the range is clear before telling the competitor to make ready. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Are you saying that the proper range commands are the ONLY thing the RO should be allowed to say at all, ever? If the shooter is standing at the start position and is clearly ready to rock and roll, then yes, the only thing he should here from the RO is Make Ready. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 Are you saying that the proper range commands are the ONLY thing the RO should be allowed to say at all, ever? If the shooter is standing at the start position and is clearly ready to rock and roll, then yes, the only thing he should here from the RO is Make Ready. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 This experience has made me rethink my "Make Ready" procedure but I would still like to ask: if I had pulled the gun out of the holster at that time, would I have had any recourse to appeal a DQ? Short answer: No. Long answer: While I'd counsel the RO -- because there are better ways to ensure the range is clear/safe for starting the next shooter's attempt than to yell "Range is going hot" -- the onus is on the competitor to hear the proper command. Appeal all you like, but you won't get back in the match. Want to do a full speed draw after hearing "Make Ready" as part of your routine -- knock yourself out. Just make sure you heard the proper command -- I have confirmed it on occasion, when the range is noisy, or when I'm wearing double hearing protection. Want to to a full speed draw "reacting to the Make Ready command" -- now you're playing with fire..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 Did you bring it to the attention of the RO that he used the incorrect commands? That is exactly why we have them. I didn't and, more so, I have been guilty of yelling the same thing to clear the range on occasions when I am RO'ing. Now I know that I need to rethink that practice too. One of the tricks I've picked up here, when I need to say something other than "Make Ready" with the competitor already in the start position, is to step downrange of him and make eye contact, then speak. Often I'll address the competitor first -- "Relax a moment, we need to deal with something." When that happens, after the issue is resolved, I also ask if the competitor is ready to start, before stepping back and starting the range commands..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pskys2 Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 The Range Officer is in control of the Range. It is their responsibility to see that the range/course is safe, clear and ready to go. You can't do that by standing there mute. And you shouldn't have to worry about the next competitor, any more than all of the others, until you address the current competitor and say "Make Ready". The RO's responsibility to the competitor on the course starts with "Make Ready". I usually yell out "Clear the Range" and then check to see that it is clear, then I address the Competitor. It is very unnerving to turn and have a competitor pull their pistol out and lay it on a table, while I'm downrange. I gave an immediate DQ and did't feel bad about it. Just hope they learn a lesson. As a competitor the first thing I do when the RO gives me a "Make Ready" command is to look downrange and make darn sure there isn't anybody down there. Especially at club matches you run into wide variations in experience and ability. And by checking I've spotted safety issues, or others downrange, more than once. If you do make this a part of your routine, it is your responsibility to insure it is the make ready command. And no there is no sense arguing about a DQ if you get one for this. I'd suggest you humbly apologize, put your gear away, laugh about it, help the rest of the squad for the match and thank your lucky stars nothing else went wrong. But then I'm just a stodgy old fuddy duddy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Cline Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 Like others, the CoF starts with MR, end with RIC. The RO has to issue other commands- like clearing the stage at the end of the 5 min walk through and calling scores. It may be best to limit unnecessary chatter and banter. I try to. If you draw just because you heard me say something is not gonna get you out of a DQ. Make Ready is the command you listen and react to, nothing else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalaur Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 No need for all the other commands, just the ones in the rulebook. On occasion while there are people downrange, a 'clear the range' his helpful to get things moving, but if the shooter is at the start position and the range is clear with RO standing behind the shooter, stick to the range commands. If there are vision barriers and you're not sure if someone is downrange, 'going hot' isn't what you should be relying on to ensure the range is clear. YOU as an RO have a responsibility to ensure the range is clear, go walk it if you need to. Yelling 'going hot' isn't going to make that hard-of-hearing-with-double-plugs-and-can't-ever-seem-to-hear-the-damn-beep guy respond at all, so what good is it? If everyone stuck to the range commands, we wouldn't always have these discussions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lugnut Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 Are you saying that the proper range commands are the ONLY thing the RO should be allowed to say at all, ever? If the shooter is standing at the start position and is clearly ready to rock and roll, then yes, the only thing he should here from the RO is Make Ready. I disagree. There are plenty of times where the RO will have to say something prior to starting the shooter. I'm all for using the standard range commands but to limit the RO to just those commands seems silly. Listen for the Make Ready command. Even if english wasn't my primary language that doesn't sound even close to "Clear the range" or "Range is going hot". If a shooter pulled out his firearm at anything but the Make Ready command, the shooter has earned a DQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillD Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 I can't blame the RO here. Until the shooter hears "Make Ready", the gun stays in the holster. The RO can say anything he wants until the start of the COF. With my hearing getting worse and worse, I switched to electronic muffs. A couple years ago, I couldn't hear the beep unless is was right by my ear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 I can't blame the RO here. Until the shooter hears "Make Ready", the gun stays in the holster. The RO can say anything he wants until the start of the COF. That's not what I was taught. I was taught that the range commands are in English everywhere in the world because if you get a shooter who doesn't speak English in the box and say anything, that the gun is coming out and that's just how it is. There should be no chatter, no "goin' hot" or any of that other crap when the shooter is in the box. Range commands + safety warnings, period. No "do you understand the course of fire?," either. No "shooter if you understand the course of fire, you may load and make ready." Just "make ready" and get on with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junkie Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 I invite the shooter to the start area then give the commands, IF the shooter is already in the start position and I have to say anything other than the range commands I ask them to step out or tell them we are not starting. Either way motosaipens has it right we need to talk to move things along and make things safe, it boils down to where the shooter is when we are speaking that can cause us problems. No don't change your pre-shot routine just be aware of what is said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbbean Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 That's not what I was taught. I was taught that the range commands are in English everywhere in the world because if you get a shooter who doesn't speak English in the box and say anything, that the gun is coming out and that's just how it is. The point of standardizing commands is so that regardless of your native tongue, "Make Ready" is the signal to make ready. If English isn't your native tongue, you aren't sure what the RO said, or it just seems like the RO is waiting a loooong time, the shooter should *ask the RO* whether he can make ready. Crux of the issue - as a shooter, your gun shouldn't come out until you are 100% sure the proper command has been given. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunguru Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 Range is hot... score and patch, every thing out the LAMR and RIC aren't command, but information, usualy not for the shooter, but for the others like helper, scorer, patcher, fans etc. This information is vital to all, not only the shooter, as the RO have responsability of the whole range, not only the shooter. It's why it's a RANGE officer, and not just a Shooter Officer. Here, the "commands & Info" are always like: 1. Range is hot, eyes & ear (All) 2. Load And Make Ready (shooter) 3. Are You Ready (shooter) 4. STANBY(shooter) 5. BEEP(shooter) bang bang bang ... 6. If Finished Unload And Show Clear (shooter) 7. If Clear, Hammer Down, Holster (shooter) 8. Range is Clear (All) 9. Score & Patch (All) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillD Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 Until the RO says Make Ready, he isn't giving range commands and the COF has not started. You wait until you hear it. Barry nailed it. The RO can tell jokes, get the range cleared, tell people to paste, whatever. Everyword that comes out of the RO's mouth does not have to be a range command unless he has started the COF. The COF does not start until he says Make Ready. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 The RO running the shooter should limit themseleves to Make Ready once the shooter has stepped up to the starting location and is waiting to hear make ready. However, there is nothing wrong with looking to make sure the range is clear before calling the next shooter up. A good RO makes a huge difference. I also think that shooters who set a hair trigger in their own mind that the next sound they are going to hear is make ready, and they yank their gun on the first sound they hear are making a mistake. Things can happen and the RO may not be able to start the range commands as everyone first planned. If you pull the gun before make ready you will be DQ'ed. Your fault, my fault, nobody's fault the shooter gets DQ'ed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 How the hell does the shooter get in the box? Isn't it the RO's job to direct him there? Does the RO need flags to indicate commands of that sort so that there's no confusion about the RO speaking anything but the range commands? Get the gun out when you're told to. That's when the RO decides to tell you to MR. The RO shouldn't be faulted for concerning himself with the health and safety of others by notifying them that someone will be firing a firearm shortly. He also does the shooter a service as most tend to quiet down when it's clear that the COF is about to begin. Do we really need to legislate what an RO says outside of the COF? Has common sense left the range? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunguru Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 Agree. The "race" only begin after the Beep, before that we can take the time and not rush against safety. Those few second before the beep should be usefull to conclude the mental parts of the game, to be sure everything is fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lugnut Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 That's not what I was taught. I was taught that the range commands are in English everywhere in the world because if you get a shooter who doesn't speak English in the box and say anything, that the gun is coming out and that's just how it is. The point of standardizing commands is so that regardless of your native tongue, "Make Ready" is the signal to make ready. If English isn't your native tongue, you aren't sure what the RO said, or it just seems like the RO is waiting a loooong time, the shooter should *ask the RO* whether he can make ready. Crux of the issue - as a shooter, your gun shouldn't come out until you are 100% sure the proper command has been given. It's that simple. I can't see how any reasonable individual could think that the RO can't say anything other than the range commands all do long- that's ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BayouSlide Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 If I find any reason to to talk to the squad/the shooter/to check for tapers/call the range hot, whatever, etc. before the Make Ready command with the shooter already in the starting box, I would make a point of standing directly in front of the shooter, preferably with eye contact. If he or she hasn't entered the box, I put a hand on their shoulder and make sure they understand what I'm about to do. When the shooter is standing ready at the starting point, they have every right to expect that the next words out of my mouth will be "Make Ready". Still ultimately their responsibility to not remove the gun from the holster until they hear those words, but with the adrenalin starting to flow, it's our duty to consider the shooter's point of view and avoid traps for the unwary whenever we can. Curtis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Knight Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 How the hell does the shooter get in the box? Isn't it the RO's job to direct him there? Does the RO need flags to indicate commands of that sort so that there's no confusion about the RO speaking anything but the range commands? Since when is my responsibility to tell someone it is OK to stand in the shooting area? I am only responsible for giving them "Make Ready". The stage briefing tells them the Start position. All "Make Ready" tells me to do is ensure they prepare their handgun in accordance with the COF. They are still responsible for the Start position. I don't mind answering the question, "What is the start position?", as I get that one quite a bit. I feel strange when a shooter asks me if they can “Get in the box” so to speak because I think that can mislead them into thinking that they can “Make Ready” (I have seen it happen in the past.) The entire purpose of this discussion is to clarify what the RO's responsibility is to the shooter as far as range commands and ensuring we do not mislead the shooter. If the shooter is already in position and looks like they are aware of what is going on then the absolute first thing I say to them is "Make Ready" 8.3.1 “Make Ready” – This command signifies the start of “the Course of Fire”. Under the direct supervision of the Range Officer the competitor must face down range, or in a safe direction as specified by the Range Officer, fit eye and ear protection, and prepare the handgun in accordance with the written stage briefing. The competitor must then assume the required start position. At this point, the Range Officer will proceed. I can't count how many times I have seen a shooter, new or experienced, standing in the box doing the GM dance and not really paying attention to me. They may be doing whatever in their heads so I always open up with “Make Ready” after clearing the range or checking the stage as a good RO is supposed to do. Just to set them up for success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 No need for all the other commands, just the ones in the rulebook. On occasion while there are people downrange, a 'clear the range' his helpful to get things moving, But 'clear the range' is not an officially blessed range command, so your statement seems inconsistent. Just don't pull the dang gun out until the RO says 'make ready'. Seems easy to me. Never assume that whatever utterance is just beginning is definitely going to be 'make ready'. Wait until you hear 'make ready'. If you don't hear it, don't pull your gun out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 (edited) Are you saying that the proper range commands are the ONLY thing the RO should be allowed to say at all, ever? If the shooter is standing at the start position and is clearly ready to rock and roll, then yes, the only thing he should here from the RO is Make Ready. I disagree with your opinion, and it doesn't appear to be supported by the rulebook, so it appears to just be a personal preference. Sometimes we get our personal preferences satisfied, sometimes not. Adapt and succeed. I personally will do just fine if the RO says any other thing before beginning the official range commands with 'make ready'. Edited June 20, 2012 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 How the hell does the shooter get in the box? Isn't it the RO's job to direct him there? Does the RO need flags to indicate commands of that sort so that there's no confusion about the RO speaking anything but the range commands? Since when is my responsibility to tell someone it is OK to stand in the shooting area? Since always. See 7.1.1, 7.1.2, and 7.1.6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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