Jim Norman Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 Tigger, I agree with you. I was not proposing exact language, just an idea as to how to handle the situation without adding more rules. 10.3.5.6.7.8a Flipping a round on ULSC Match DQ vs 10.3, UGH Match DQ I like the second part. If we decide that certain things are unsafe, just put them in the list attached to this rule. Always leave the "Or as decreed by the host range rules" Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deuce Posted July 28, 2004 Share Posted July 28, 2004 As an RO, I've already made mention of this to a couple people who've done this on my watch ... FYI. I'm sure most who do it have no clue that it might be dangerous. At this point, I'm wondering why no one makes mention of the way I eject the chambered round after UASC ... invert (verically, of course) the pistol and while racking the slide with the weak hand, do so with the weak hand positioned appropriately over the ejection port and let the round fall into the palm of the weak hand. After that, I invert the pistol again, so it's now upright, and hold the slide back until ICHDH. Does anyone know of any potential danger with this? Aside from the fact that gravity is working a bit to persuade the cartridge more out the TOP of the ejection port as opposed to the SIDE, I don't see how it's otherwise any different than what most of us would consider normal. I'll add that this "technique" was born simply out of the fact that I recently had fusion surgery on my lower back (L4-S1) and, when I can, I avoid bending over. I certainly wasn't trying to "show off". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted July 28, 2004 Share Posted July 28, 2004 Just roll the gun a few degrees to the right, rack the slide and let the round fall. Showboating is just wrong. It can also cost you if you get so caught up in your end performance that you forget to scan and leave a steel or two up. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted July 28, 2004 Share Posted July 28, 2004 Dang, more than half the time the RO catches my bullet for me I always jerked the slide back real hard and it comes flying out per my CCW instructor's advise a decade ago. I didn't know I've been putting people in such danger for so long. It isn't a big deal or showboating, heck it isn't hard enough to do to make it either, in my opinion, it just saves you from having to try to figure out which live round lying on the ground is actually yours. At big matches I don't care, but at my range we have to pick up the live rounds so it just saves time. I've seen 4 people hurt from .40 Glocks blowing up and not one from ejecting a bullet in this manner, which is more dangerous? I'll bet statistically the Glock kabooms would win by a mile. Should we ban them too? hmmmm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TriggerT Posted July 29, 2004 Share Posted July 29, 2004 I got it, we will be REQUIRED to shoot until slide lock for every COF. It will have the added benifit of making things more competative between Open and Production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Buff Posted July 29, 2004 Share Posted July 29, 2004 Trigger - I like the idea. Will be kind of the new F-1 rules....now you must plan ahead and KNOW how many bullts to take along so the last one locks the slide and you don't waste time.....NO MORE MISSES Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Linch Posted July 29, 2004 Share Posted July 29, 2004 I always jerked the slide back real hard and it comes flying out per my CCW instructor's advise a decade ago. I didn't know I've been putting people in such danger for so long....I'll bet statistically the Glock kabooms would win by a mile. Should we ban them too? hmmmm. The same advice was given to me also, that's why I have scars on my hand and arm. It's bad advice. If the Glock was blowing up because of an action the operator was doing, then no. We don't allow guns without trigger guards do we? You are making a hardware issue out of a software issue, not exactly the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TriggerT Posted July 29, 2004 Share Posted July 29, 2004 I found it interesting that at the IN state match I went to this past weekend that all but one of the shooters in our squad did this. Also interesting was that NOT ONE of the RO's or CRO's said a single word about it, and I can recall at least two stages where the RO's made an effort to catch the round for shooters. From the 15 to 20 VERY experienced shooters and gunsmiths I have asked about this, I have concluded that this seems to be a problem ONLY in .40 cal guns, and then mainly with guns that have had extended ejectors installed, or when the shooter "Double Pumps" the slide in the process if trying to jack the round out of the gun. Has anyone ever [/b]SEEN this happen with anything other than a .40 cal gun? Not heard about, but actually first hand whitnessed it happen with a .45, or 9mm, or even .38 Super? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Sahlberg Posted July 29, 2004 Share Posted July 29, 2004 Most detonations "catching cartridges" mid air are the .40 S&W in Glocks but I do not know why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Linch Posted July 29, 2004 Share Posted July 29, 2004 Has anyone ever [/b]SEEN this happen with anything other than a .40 cal gun? Not heard about, but actually first hand whitnessed it happen with a .45, or 9mm, or even .38 Super? See my earlier posts. It's happened to me in factory Hyro 230gr .45cal Twice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted July 29, 2004 Share Posted July 29, 2004 If we decide that certain things are unsafe, just put them in the list attached to this rule. Always leave the "Or as decreed by the host range rules" Just a note: Under the current USPSA rules (2001), a *discharge* while unloading is already a DQ for unsafe gun handling. See US 10.3.2.1 Under the current IPSC and proposed USPSA rules (2004, if the rulebooks ever arrive), it will no longer be a DQ. 10.4.3.1 says: Exception: a detonation which occurs while unloading a handgun is not considered a shot or discharge subject to a match disqualification, however, Rule 5.1.6 may apply. I'd also note that the "as decreed by host range rules" is a Bad Thing. The IPSC and USPSA rules do not allow "local rules" unless required by legal issues, and even then only with the consent of the Regional Director. This is, among other things, to make sure that rules are consistently applied from range to range. Bruce (in favor of "good" rules, not "more" rules) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooterj Posted July 29, 2004 Share Posted July 29, 2004 A friend of mine has a pair of Oakley lenses that are now useless because of a piece of .38 super brass is imbedded in them. May happen more often with .40 s&w, but never forget about Murphy's Law!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted July 29, 2004 Share Posted July 29, 2004 Bruce, In principle I agree with you. In fact I agree most wholeheartedly with you on your points. Except: A Detonation is not a discharge. If you AD it is still a DQ, a detonation is described as what we are talking about here, a round going off whaile the slide is back and the round is being ejected. Local Rules. I agree, but as an example, a club says, you can have IPSC here, but you may not ever under any circumstances have a loaded gun picked-up off a table, we don't care about drawing from a holster, but because my cousin's Aunt Tilley's sister's friend of a friend one time a long time ago dropped a gun, we don't allow that here. OK, Do we not shoot IPSC there? or do we say, OK, it is a n assinine rule, but we can do everything else and still shoot? This is an admittedly absurd example. More likely it would cover angles of engagement, placement of steel, or something else. Lets say that the club does not allow steel closer than 20 yards for any reason. Do we say well, we can't use them and shoot a match with 60 people? or do we say , OK, we'll adjust? I would like to change such a rule if I could, but you have to be in it to win it as they say. If we aren't there, we have no chance of showing them the error of their ways. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 29, 2004 Share Posted July 29, 2004 Most detonations "catching cartridges" mid air are the .40 S&W in Glocks but I do not know why? That hasn't been my experience. Not at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 29, 2004 Share Posted July 29, 2004 Jim, In those situations, I think you contact your Area Director and the President of USPSA (our "regional director")...to get an exemption. As Bruce says, there is a method in place for this very type of issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted July 29, 2004 Share Posted July 29, 2004 Also interesting was that NOT ONE of the RO's or CRO's said a single word about it, and I can recall at least two stages where the RO's made an effort to catch the round for shooters. If you come through a stage that I run, I won't say a word about it either. However, you may notice me step back, and you will definately not see me lunge to catch the bullet... With no rule to stop it, I just try to stay out of the way.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackdragon Posted July 30, 2004 Share Posted July 30, 2004 I believe if Flipping bothers and RO and he believes he is in danger, Why not mention it in the walk through? I don't know a shooter that would not respect his concern. and yes Iam an RO and a "old timer Flipper" Ivan SCS Vegas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalmas Posted July 30, 2004 Share Posted July 30, 2004 I've never seen or heard of the problem, but then again anything above 9mm is forbidden here so that might be the answer. I have stopped flipping because I almost got DQ'd at a small local match, i payed more attention to the badly flipped round and almost pointed the gun outside the flags... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherwyn Posted July 30, 2004 Share Posted July 30, 2004 There are three times that I remember having a shooter that I was RO'ing have a detonation. Two of the three were while using the hand over ejection port method and I guess the other was an attempted flip. None drew my blood, all three drew shooters blood. I will not catch the shooters round as I believe that directs my attention away from the gun I should be watching. But yet I hardly ever advise against it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 30, 2004 Share Posted July 30, 2004 Jim, In those situations, I think you contact your Area Director and the President of USPSA (our "regional director")...to get an exemption. As Bruce says, there is a method in place for this very type of issue. I disagree. In that situation you agree to run matches, and the MD modifies any table start stages to be holster starts. Simple, really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted July 30, 2004 Share Posted July 30, 2004 Hi guys, In case you haven't already found it, I've started this poll in an effort to summarise the various views on this topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPSCDRL Posted July 30, 2004 Share Posted July 30, 2004 And thank you for doing so Vince. I have voted and hope that many others will so that we can get a good idea of what a large cross section of members think of this. Personally, I don't think there is any problem here. I cringe when people place their hands over the ejection port, ejecting and catching (or not) the round does not seem to be a problem to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Buff Posted July 30, 2004 Share Posted July 30, 2004 It's still early, but I did not expect these results.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dajarrel Posted July 30, 2004 Share Posted July 30, 2004 Until IPSC/USPSA makes it illegal to 'flip and catch' or the MD of a match or the RO of the stage tells you you cannot do it because they think it is unsafe, there really isn't much to be said to the shooter other than to tell him/her of your opinion. I personally don't do it anytime I have an RO overseeing me at a match, but when I am practicing by myself, I usually do. Why? Probably because I'm too lazy* to bend over and pick up the round. FWIW dj *There, I said it, I'm a lazy person. I admit it, Isn't that supposed to be the first step of recovery? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TriggerT Posted July 30, 2004 Share Posted July 30, 2004 Thanks for the Poll Vince. It will be interesting to see how this weighs out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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