Ejecting and catching the bullet

[omnia1911]

Seems to me that the "flip and catch" technique is an issue that seemlessly fits into the rule book in the Practical Shooting Etiquette section. Just as we frown upon gun store commandos, we can take the same approach to show boaters.

DON'T BE A SHOW BOAT. Flipping and catching a round after the unload and show clear command is a practice that is frowned upon, and has no place in our sport.

I voted for choice number 8 in the poll related to this subject. I would have voted for this if it was choice number 9: Prohibit - No penalty, but RO advises competitor of proper shooting etiquette.

Number 8 was for leaving things as they are, if the alternative is a choice for numbers 1-7.

[Nik Habicht]

Seems to me that the "flip and catch" technique is an issue that seemlessly fits into the rule book in the Practical Shooting Etiquette section. Just as we frown upon gun store commandos, we can take the same approach to show boaters.

DON'T BE A SHOW BOAT. Flipping and catching a round after the unload and show clear command is a practice that is frowned upon, and has no place in our sport.

I voted for choice number 8 in the poll related to this subject. I would have voted for this if it was choice number 9: Prohibit - No penalty, but RO advises competitor of proper shooting etiquette.

Number 8 was for leaving things as they are, if the alternative is a choice for numbers 1-7.

This just might be the solution.

[uscbigdawg]

[Devil's Advocate Hat on]

DON'T BE A SHOW BOAT. Flipping and catching a round after the unload and show clear command is a practice that is frowned upon, and has no place in our sport.

If the issue is 'show boating' (i.e. being a show off and/or drawing "too much" attention to one's self), where does that stop? No splatter painted grips, holsters or mag pouches. No high polish frames or slides. No titanium nitride coatings on guns or associated parts. No bright, sponsor laden shirts.

We know it's not the best practice (hell I've admitted to that) but removing under the precedent of something on the order of, "because!" is not really valid.

[Devil's Advocate Hat Off]

If you want it eliminated, deem it a safety issue. However, it's better to have an RO "advise" a competitor after the range is clear rather than say issuing a DQ, procedural, etc., etc., etc.

Rich

[Loves2Shoot]

Seems to me that the "flip and catch" technique is an issue that seemlessly fits into the rule book in the Practical Shooting Etiquette section. Just as we frown upon gun store commandos, we can take the same approach to show boaters.

DON'T BE A SHOW BOAT. Flipping and catching a round after the unload and show clear command is a practice that is frowned upon, and has no place in our sport.

I voted for choice number 8 in the poll related to this subject. I would have voted for this if it was choice number 9: Prohibit - No penalty, but RO advises competitor of proper shooting etiquette.

Number 8 was for leaving things as they are, if the alternative is a choice for numbers 1-7.

Ok, why is it showboating?

[IPSCDRL]

If you want it eliminated, deem it a safety issue.  However, it's better to have an RO "advise" a competitor after the range is clear rather than say issuing a DQ, procedural, etc., etc., etc.

Rich

"Ok, why is it showboating? "

More importantly, why is it something that needs to be addressed in the rules?

"If you want it eliminated, deem it a safety issue."

How about we reserve that for things that ARE safety issues.

The phrase knee-jerk comes to mind here. The rule book can only be SO big.

Personally, I see a hand over the ejection port as being a much more dangerous action.

[uscbigdawg]

IPSCDRL,

First off, I agree with what you're saying in principal.

Unfortunately, doing the flip and catch IS a safety issue. I know this, 'cause I had a round go off, doing it. RO was fine (but could have been hurt), spectators were fine (but could have been hurt), I was DQ'ed, powder in my face and brass in my finger and otherwise okay (but could have been hurt much worse).

Personally, and yes after all the above, I say it's a non-issue. I did preface my statement, "If you want it eliminated, deem it a safety issue."

Rich

[Flexmoney]

Rich, you had a round go off while forcefully ejecting it, correct?

Catching had nothing to do with it (even if that was your goal)?

It seems many feel the flip and catch is showboating. And, they have a problem with that. hmmmmm

The safety issue that may be present is ejecting a loaded round through an ejection port that doesn't have enough room to let the round clear...it catches...and gets rammed into the ejector...setting off the primer.

Lets get a clear definition of the true issue before we all go off into the solutions (that don't match the problem).

[uscbigdawg]

Rich, you had a round go off while forcefully ejecting it, correct?

Catching had nothing to do with it (even if that was your goal)?

Agreed.

The safety issue that may be present is ejecting a loaded round through an ejection port that doesn't have enough room to let the round clear...it catches...and gets rammed into the ejector...setting off the primer.

Lets get a clear definition of the true issue before we all go off into the solutions (that don't match the problem). 

Amen to that!

Rich

[TriggerT]

So the issue isn't if you catch the round or not, it is if you rack the side harder than......whatever, and the round goes off.

Could the question be made that you are therefore using unsafe equipment? You aren't hadling the gun in an usafe way, but your equiptment must be set up in such a way that this is happening?

[uscbigdawg]

TriggerT,

Yeah, the night before, when I was cleaning the gun, I noticed the extractor tension was off (by a pretty good amount). But the gun was running great, so I figured no touchy!

Paid for that the next day....ON THE FIRST STAGE!

Oh well. Lesson semi-learned.

Rich

[TDean]

I know this, 'cause I had a round go off, doing it. RO was fine (but could have been hurt), spectators were fine (but could have been hurt), I was DQ'ed....

Why were you DQ'd ?

[uscbigdawg]

Unsafe gun handling. Iwas fine with it. Plus I was carving brass out of my finger.

Rich

[JasonK]

Pardon me for asking but I don't understand how you got brass in the finger unless you had your hand over the ejection port. Is that how it happened? If not could you more clearly describe the situation?

Thanks

JK

[uscbigdawg]

Finger was below the ejection port, touching the frame/slide. Round fell off of the extractor and ignited on the ejector. Boom! Really big idiot, making sure everyone else was okay first, then showing my clear gun and holstering.

Signed my scoresheet for the DQ and went to the safe area to start digging brass out of my bleeding finger. 10 minutes later and some brown tape, I was heading home to clean it out and bandage it.

Rich

[TriggerT]

Not to beat a dead horse, but wouldn't this be unsafe equipment, and not unsafe gun handling?

The more I think about this entire thread, the more I think this would be the best way to handle any ruling on a situation like this.

[uscbigdawg]

My friends were telling me to arbitrate the DQ under a gun malfunction (this was 1999?).

At that point, I was a vegetable and just needed bandaging and some lovin'.

However, I believe it could easily be argued that way...then.

Rich

[Vince Pinto]

Lets get a clear definition of the true issue before we all go off into the solutions (that don't match the problem).  

Well that's exactly what I did in my post 2 weeks ago (18 July) in this thread when I proposed:

8.3.6 "If You Are Finished, Unload And Show Clear" – If the competitor has finished shooting, he must lower his handgun and present it for inspection by the Range Officer with the muzzle pointed down range, magazine removed, slide retracted cautiously and locked or held open, and chamber empty. Revolvers must be presented with the cylinder swung out and empty (See Rule 10.5.15).

10.5.15 Intentionally retracting a slide rearwards without caution during compliance with Rule 8.3.6.

-:but some guys thought the word "cautiously" was too subjective.

If the round detonates, there's nothing to catch, and the safety breach (and any resultant injuries), have already occurred. The real problem arises when competitors yank the slide back with full force on "ULASC", and in my experience this is, more often than not, a prelude to an attempt to catch the round.

The other thing is that even if you have your hand over the ejection port (which I confess has always been my personal modus operandi), racking a slide rearwards cautiously is highly unlikely to cause a detonation.

Having said all that, I will be guided by the results of the poll, and I thank you all for your input and vote.

[omnia1911]

Seems to me that the "flip and catch" technique is an issue that seemlessly fits into the rule book in the Practical Shooting Etiquette section. Just as we frown upon gun store commandos, we can take the same approach to show boaters.

DON'T BE A SHOW BOAT. Flipping and catching a round after the unload and show clear command is a practice that is frowned upon, and has no place in our sport.

I voted for choice number 8 in the poll related to this subject. I would have voted for this if it was choice number 9: Prohibit - No penalty, but RO advises competitor of proper shooting etiquette.

Number 8 was for leaving things as they are, if the alternative is a choice for numbers 1-7.

Ok, why is it showboating?

You can apply a term that you are more comfortable with. I see no valid reason for engaging in the flip and catch technique, other than being too lazy to pick your round up from the ground. Leave it if it too much of an effort.

We know part of your practice time is spent perfecting the flip and catch technique to impress the gallery. I understand the pain you will feel if it is denied.

[omnia1911]

Lets get a clear definition of the true issue before we all go off into the solutions (that don't match the problem).  

Well that's exactly what I did in my post 2 weeks ago (18 July) in this thread when I proposed:

8.3.6 "If You Are Finished, Unload And Show Clear" – If the competitor has finished shooting, he must lower his handgun and present it for inspection by the Range Officer with the muzzle pointed down range, magazine removed, slide retracted cautiously and locked or held open, and chamber empty. Revolvers must be presented with the cylinder swung out and empty (See Rule 10.5.15).

10.5.15 Intentionally retracting a slide rearwards without caution during compliance with Rule 8.3.6.

-:but some guys thought the word "cautiously" was too subjective.

If the round detonates, there's nothing to catch, and the safety breach (and any resultant injuries), have already occurred. The real problem arises when competitors yank the slide back with full force on "ULASC", and in my experience this is, more often than not, a prelude to an attempt to catch the round.

The other thing is that even if you have your hand over the ejection port (which I confess has always been my personal modus operandi), racking a slide rearwards cautiously is highly unlikely to cause a detonation.

Having said all that, I will be guided by the results of the poll, and I thank you all for your input and vote.

The problem that I have with the rule you are suggesting is that while clearing a malfuction, a shooter may rack his slide and eject a round with the kind of force that you are trying to outlaw after the unload and show clear command. One gets you a DQ, the other a pass. With that in mind, how do you make it a safety issue?

[uscbigdawg]

You can apply a term that you are more comfortable with. I see no valid reason for engaging in the flip and catch technique...

But that doesn't make it wrong, and that is the crux of the issue. Is it wrong, and if so, what to do about it. Being a show off isn't necessarily a bad thing.

I did it, until I learned not to do it (see Kaboom!). However, the action itself isn't wrong. Heck, I'm sure someone probably has an argument that there's no valid reason for half the stuff we do but it's done (see Vince's take on the Texas Star, e.g.).

On a lighter note,

I understand the pain you will feel if it is denied.

Make sure you get the spelling of my name right: S-U-P-E-R-S-T-A-R. Just kidding.

Rich

[omnia1911]

You can apply a term that you are more comfortable with. I see no valid reason for engaging in the flip and catch technique...

But that doesn't make it wrong, and that is the crux of the issue. Is it wrong, and if so, what to do about it. Being a show off isn't necessarily a bad thing.

I did it, until I learned not to do it (see Kaboom!). However, the action itself isn't wrong. Heck, I'm sure someone probably has an argument that there's no valid reason for half the stuff we do but it's done (see Vince's take on the Texas Star, e.g.).

On a lighter note,

I understand the pain you will feel if it is denied.

Make sure you get the spelling of my name right: S-U-P-E-R-S-T-A-R. Just kidding.

Rich

Is it wrong? I suppose the same question could be asked about wearing commando clothing and shirts with macho sayings. Someone decided that it was not welcome at the matches for no other reason than they made it so.

[uscbigdawg]

Exactly. But the wearing of commando clothing are in the rules to make it clear to not associate USPSA/IPSC with anything para-military (not like it helps in the media). This isn't.

A reason to do so would be range safety.

Rich

[Flexmoney]

Could the question be made that you are therefore using unsafe equipment? You aren't hadling the gun in an usafe way, but your equiptment must be set up in such a way that this is happening?

When I took the gunsmithing class at Cylinder and Slide, Bill had us scallop the forward portion of the ejection port. He stated the (obvious) reason.

I think we have a problem with the whole shooting system (gun, ammo, shooter).

We could delve deeper.

And, come up with plenty of "stuff" that ought to be done, but isn't.

[Steve Moneypenny]

I find this whole discussion un nerving. first off i don't like constandly bending over pulling my shirt out leaning into my gun to pick up a live round. or staring at the ground for a half hour to pick out WHICH round it is... or being pointed to the ground and told to pick it up by the RO.... SORRY bit's been on the ground what if it's just like mine and loaded by an inferior reloader. the primer strkes gravel. gets mud on the round... etc.

I shoot a lot, with a lot of guns. many times i flip the round up, catch it, i always keep the ejection port away from myself and the RO, and then retract the slide to make sure the RO sees the gun is clear... this is usually done before the RO finishes the word "clear" in the IYAF, ULSC command i start when he says IF. it quickly expedites things..... i can't see how anything could be safer.. humm gun pointed towards ground 10 ft or so in front of me round not hitting the ground once it is out of the gun.... not sweeping anything with the muzzle...

I was chastized for this once in an IDPA match. when i asked the SO if he had ever tried it he said he tried but couldn't.

I personally think the problem is people who can't do it properly are jealous of those of us who can. if they sweep their hand DQ them, but be sure of it. if it's not safe for that person do do it tell them to go home and practice it. or find another way.... how about this..

I have a novel idea here... at the end of the stage. have a special target, record the time, tell them to remove the magazine... SHOOT the targets. (ie remove magazine, fire down range) show clear gun clear hammer down holster... no more live round problems!

[Deuce]

I voted for Match DQ.

I was going to vote for Procedural ... only 'cause I thought people should get a chance to be informed of the rule ... but, I should think there'd be plenty of time for that.

Otherwise, I see no reason to put the shooter, or the RO, or anyone else at unnecessary risk. Not to mention what the Anti's would do if they thought there was an AD issue at regularly scheduled competitive shooting events. As for making it a sportmanship issue or stage-briefing ... there'll always be those who'll try to get away with whatever they can ... having this be a DQ'able rule makes it nearly a non-issue for us 99.9% of the time.

I've seen in the rule book where a "detonation" is not DQable ... I'm not sure, offhand, if it says so explicitly, but, as I understand it, that rule was CREATED 'cause of rounds detonating on the ejector. So, obviously it HAS happened before. And, if racking the slide vigorously in an effort to catch the round increases the odds of this, in the least, I should think that behavior has no place in our sport.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I appreciate not having to pick up the round off the ground ... no matter what the reason. However, presuming our friends are not here to lie to us (and even if so, to what end?), I just don't see that the cost/benefit is worth it. Aside from the following, if there IS, indeed, an issue with rounds detonating on gravel as they are normally ejected, I would expect that either the gravel would be removed or maybe lay down some carpet remnants.

I heard some people mention that they thought the hand over the ejection port was MORE dangerous. But, I'm guessing they're referring to a still hearty slide-racking and holding the gun upright (as normal).

I'm by no means trying to be johnny-savior-on-the-spot here, but, does ANYONE have any reason to believe that inverting the gun while GENTLY racking the slide to eject the round into the palm of your hand, as it is CUPPED over (or under, depending on your perspective) the ejection port, is dangerous in any way?

Thanks.