Ejecting and catching the bullet

[Flexmoney]

Perhaps we should require standard length ammo only. That way the round will have the clearence needed to exit the ejection port without getting jammed up?

Sure, many of the 1911 based guns won't run...but, safety first (besides...I shoot a Glock with standard length ammo ).

OK...I am being a bit sarcastic here. But, I am wondering what activity we are looking to prevent...and I am seriously wondering how it could ever be possible to write a rule that wouldn't be subjective.

The danger isn't in catching a round that has already exited the gun.

[Vince Pinto]

OK...I am being a bit sarcastic here. But, I am wondering what activity we are looking to prevent...and I am seriously wondering how it could ever be possible to write a rule that wouldn't be subjective. The danger isn't in catching a round that has already exited the gun.

True. It's the action which causes the round to fly high into the air that is the issue here. Off the top of my head, the matter can be resolved quite simply:

8.3.6 "If You Are Finished, Unload And Show Clear" – If the competitor has finished shooting, he must lower his handgun and present it for inspection by the Range Officer with the muzzle pointed down range, magazine removed, slide retracted cautiously and locked or held open, and chamber empty. Revolvers must be presented with the cylinder swung out and empty (See Rule 10.5.15).

10.5.15 Intentionally retracting a slide rearwards without caution during compliance with Rule 8.3.6.

Is "without caution" subjective? I don't know, but it's better than what we have now (i.e. zip).

[Julien Boit]

Here we call that unload procedure "Tarantino's Unload".

They got a really high cool factor .

I did it for some times, and I thought it was a plus for safety because once I had removed my mag, ROs saw the round flying, so it was a clue that the chamber was empty, some even didn't look at the gun because they saw the round flying, but that's another matter.

I never saw or heard here about any round hitting the ejector while doing this, but the risk does exists.

Since the world shoot in south africa , I decided to apply another technique which is to unload the round in RO's hand.

If he shows his hand, I carefully retract my slide and put the round in his/her hand.

If he don't, I eject it on the ground.

If it ever go off, at least it won't be in my hand

[TriggerT]

Asked around at today shoot, mostly the guys who have been shooting USPSA for 10+ years, and while all of them had HEARD about his happening, none of them had actually seen it happen, or even been at a match where it has happened. Sounded like this is mostly a problem in the .40.

Still, if nothing else this is a good safety thread to be aware of. It only has to happen once for you to regret it.

[davidwiz]

When I said it happens all the time, I was referring to the showing-off that people do when they catch the ejected round in the air, not guns AD'ing when being unloaded.

[mactiger]

10.5.15 Intentionally retracting a slide rearwards without caution during compliance with Rule 8.3.6.

Is "without caution" subjective? I don't know, but it's better than what we have now (i.e. zip).

I gotta disagree with you on this one, Uncle Vinny. I've seen this detonation happen exactly twice, and both times the competitor was ejecting the round "with caution". In fact, I've yet to see someone who "flips and catches" have a problem. And, given the number of people who shoot this sport week after week, I think the actual number of detonations is so low as to be statistically insignificant. True, when it happens, it's ugly, but I just don't think it's a huge problem.

The problem, I believe, comes not from how fast you eject your loaded round, but from the mechanics of ejecting a round from a 1911 style pistol, especially since some ammo (as Flex has stated) is loaded longer than standard length. The spacing of the primer and location of the ejector in 40 caliber guns is especially problematic, given the number of instances of detonation in guns of this caliber. Maybe extended ejectors and/or extractors that are either worn out or too tight exacerbate the problem. I'm sure there must be a couple of gunsmiths out there that can explain this better than I can.

However, I don't think we need a rule to cover this--especially not one that seems to be highly subjective. True, it's a possible hazard, but adding another rule won't fix this one, I'm afraid. Educating competitors to the possible hazard of ejecting a round into their hand seems to be a better way to address the problem. Perhaps a bit of learnin' for RO's would be in order as well.

Lastly, it might be prudent to keep your hand away from the ejection port while unloading.

Troy

Edited July 18, 2004 by mactiger

[diehli]

On my Glock 35, I tilt the gun 90 degrees, eject the round into the air, lock back the slide, and catch the round, then show clear. The muzzle comes up to chest level aimed slightly down and directly downrange during this "trick".

On my Fat Free .40, I tilt the gun 135 degrees, slowly rack the slide with my hand over the ejection port (the serrations make this easy), hold on to the round that falls into my hand, flip the gun back to upright, rack the slide and hold it open to show clear.

On my Open gun, I'll most likely do the same thing as with my FF40, but using the slide racker and the bottom edge of my hand to grab the round.

It seems rounds going off when hitting the ground or an ejector are equally possible. Is one way inherently more dangerous than any other, or are we talking about what could get injured in the process?

[BDH]

I gotta disagree with you on this one, Uncle Vinny.  I've seen this detonation happen exactly twice, and both times the competitor was ejecting the round "with caution".  In fact, I've yet to see someone who "flips and catches" have a problem.  And, given the number of people who shoot this sport week after week, I think the actual number of detonations is so low as to be statistically insignificant.  True, when it happens, it's ugly, but I just don't think it's a huge problem.

Troy, I guess my issue with this is that 'what's the point?' No one gains any advantage from this little trick, so why even take the chance of an accident happening???

Also, just to make things clear..... while I have NEVER personally seen this, we did have one last year at our club match.... I was on another stage at the time, but heard about it later....

This just seems like something that should be avoided.......

[Garfield]

So, -just trying to think up some rule for this- it wouldn't help to say something like "shooter is not allowed to let go off the slide before it is fully closed" or something to that effect ? Or something like "shooter is not allowed to catch the round himself OR rack and flip the gun in a certain way to have the cartridge land at a non-random spot" ?

If I understand the above contributions to this thread correctly, ANY time someone ejects a round it is potentially unsafe ? And even more with ammo that is "loaded long" ? If that is true, it will be really difficult to come up with a rule for this problem.

[Larry White]

This seems to be a issue mostly with the .40. Due to the dia. and length of the rd if the slide is pulled sharply to the rear and released and the rd does not clear the port thd slide drives it back into the ejector. One incident of this happened at the 3gun nats this year (shooter had no intention of catching the round) and was at least part of the flap over speed unloading on the clock. The flip and catch without dought can cause this to happen but the prudent way is clear a 1911(any cal.) is to pull the slide to the rear and keep it there until you know where the cartrige went. Larry

[mactiger]

Well, sometimes it happens on just pulling the slide to the rear.

The point, BDH, is that Vince's suggested rule, as written, is so highly subjective I think it would be a nightmare to try and enforce fairly. I don't shoot IDPA, but it sort of sounds like a "FTDR". Our other safety rules are all fairly objective, but I don't know how "with caution" would be interpreted.

I just don't think that we can "legislate" this into not happening. It should be a safety concern, sure, but no amount of rule making is going to stop the occasional detonation. I think it would be better to try to educate the general IPSC public about the potential for detonation. After all, we run around with loaded guns, we ought to be able to figure this out for ourselves.

Several years ago, during the shootoffs at Nationals, we heard a "pop" like a firecracker, from the stands. A couple of people checked it out, and found that someone had been holding a .38 super round and dropped it. The primer struck a rock, and the damn thing detonated. Should we police everybody who might possibly pick up a loaded round, to make sure they don't drop it, or that they are handling it with "caution". I don't think so.

Troy

[Jamie McG]

I'm not sure what the answer is, but I'll tell you this, after expierence it first hand if I know the shooter and they want to unload in this manner they will be OR'd by someone else. I think pretty soon there will be no one left run these show boats.

[BDH]

Troy, all valid comments, however... IF there is a potential safety issue (even if it is 'one in a million'), and since there is NO advantage gained by the shooters... why allow it?

I guess I just don't see the point of anyone doing this when there is no upside, and there is a definate downside... However, to your point, we do not want subjective rules either....

There must be some common ground...

[PhilTerry]

Troy

I have a vague recollection that John Amidon issued some guidance on this issue a few years ago - I will go through my old Front Sight collection tomorrow and see if I can find it. In any event I consider the practice unnecessary showmanship!

[TriggerT]

I do this, but only because there has always been tons of time to catch the round after I rack it to show clear. I don't consider it cool, or "hey look at this neat trick." If the RO doesn't like it, all he has to do is say so, and i will be MORE THAN HAPPY to let theround fall to the ground. So far, I have never had a single RO say anything.

[mactiger]

Troy

I have a vague recollection that John Amidon issued some guidance on this issue a few years ago - I will go through my old Front Sight collection tomorrow and see if I can find it. In any event I consider the practice unnecessary showmanship!

Ok, Phil, thanks.

It may be unnecessary showmanship, John may not like it, but it's not against the rules.

Troy, all valid comments, however... IF there is a potential safety issue (even if it is 'one in a million'), and since there is NO advantage gained by the shooters... why allow it?

First off, why allow what? Flipping and catching, or ejecting a loaded round?

I'd venture a guess and say that there is a greater than one in a million chance that running around with a loaded gun, over uneven terrain, negotiating obstacles and blasting away has lots of potential safety issues. We don't call them that, though, we usually call it FUN.

Here's my point: I don't think we can write a rule that prevents this, and in most of the cases I've either witnessed or heard about, the detonation did not occur on the "flip and catch", it happened when the shooter was ejecting the round in a normal or even cautious fashion. Also, just because it happens occasionally, we should not just knee-jerk a rule into place. I also think that we could nitpick this sport to death on "potential safety issues", end up with a 30 lb. rulebook, and be shooting bullseye.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

Troy

[ima45dv8]

Lots of good comments on this so far. Thanks to all.

As far as rules go, it's been pointed out that writing a new one to cover this would be difficult to say the least. That makes me wonder why the current rule prohibiting a detonation during unloading is being abandoned?

Just curious, as it seems that was at least something to point to when cautioning folks to not do the "flip and catch".

I really don't know what the answer is, but I wish we could find a way to convince people this is a bad idea.

[Flexmoney]

OK...the "catch" has nothing to do with safety.

That leaves the "flip". I don't know that the flip is any more dangerous than the slow, cautious method. In fact, I am fairly certain that the hand over the ejection port and slowly racking the slide is more dangerous.

I don't see this as an "especially 40" issue. Ejecting a loaded round that is long enough to have clearance problems with the ejection port is the biggest issue. That can (and does) happen in every caliber.

BDH, I was at MRP when a shooter had one of these issue. I saw it happen. It was NOT a catch and flip. I can't tell you who it was, but I recall it being a left-handed Para shooter. He was "clearing" the gun with his right hand over the ejection port...trying to catch the round. He likely keep it from ejecting properly...thus, jamming it into the ejector. Boom.

I used to think the flip and catch was showboating a bit. Now, I feel it just comes from shooting a lot. I try not to do it, but I caught myself doing so just yesterday. No big deal...except that I didn't really want to set that example with newer shooters around.

[Flexmoney]

Oh...I would prefer the RO's keep their mitts away from my gun.

If I need that bullet, I can pick it up after I holster..and the stage is over.

[BDH]

BDH, I was at MRP when a shooter had one of these issue.  I saw it happen.  It was NOT a catch and flip.  I can't tell you who it was, but I recall it being a left-handed Para shooter.  He was "clearing" the gun with his right hand over the ejection port...trying to catch the round.  He likely keep it from ejecting properly...thus, jamming it into the ejector.  Boom.

Flex, I KNOW who it was... and talked to him about it (but, I did not witness it). Also, knowing the shooter, I can not imagine that he was showboating. That said.... BOOM. Sooooo, why encourage it... that is my quesiton?

[mactiger]

I don't think anyone is saying we should encourage it, just that we shouldn't try to make a rule to keep it from happening, because it would be impossible to enforce and easily abused. I"d strongly discourage putting your hand over the port when ejecting, and perhaps even encourage pointing the port at the ground, but I wouldn't make rules for those either.

As for removing the DQ for detonation, as I stated before, in most cases, it's a geometry problem, not something the shooter does, even negligently. The first one I ever saw happened several years ago, and the guy who had the detonation merely racked his slide back to eject a round. His hand was not over the port, nor did he flip it or rack it hard. In fact, he was holding the slide by the front serrations, with his hand under the gun.

Troy

[.40AET]

I have seen many RO's stop a shooter while unloading, stating that they have their hand over the ejection port and the round could easily detonate. The palm seems to move the round into a better position be hit by the ejector. Just my experiences.

If a "kindly" RO sticks out their hand to catch a round. In the past I would gladly lay the round into their hand. Pulling the slide back as slowly as possible to let the round trickle out of the chamber. This year, I have changed my views. I have asked that the RO move their hand and let the round hit the ground.

We can't legislate common sense, however, I don't think we need a new rule.

[Vince Pinto]

Hi guys,

I'm all ears, but give me more guidance here. It seems most commentators in this thread want to discourage and/or to stop the practice because there's no benefit but inherent risks, but some of you have different ideas on how to deal with it. The choices as I see it are:

1. A tough new rule (e.g. "Thou shalt not .......... match DQ");

2. A kinder, gentler rule (e.g. "Thou should not ........ but no penalty");

3. A "Best Practice" (e.g. Nothing in the rulebook, but we spread the word ........ how?).

4. Too hard - do nothing.

5. Is there a 5th option?

[Larry White]

No new rule! Seems most folks were aware of this. Larry

[Chuck D]

Once upon a time it was even cooler to "jerk the slide open" on an angle so the live round would pop out and magically find its way into the breast pocket of your shirt.

I never liked being around anyone whom did that or attempted to catch the round in mid air.

Not everyone that tilts the gun and collects the live round in the palm of their hands is performing an unsafe act. I do this all the time BUT by SV in 45acp DOES NOT use an extended ejector therefore no "tip" to contact the primer thus performing the same function as the firing pin. If my gun did use an extended ejector...I wouldn't use the palm of my hand to cover the ejection port and catch the live round.

I'd love to see a rule that would not only eliminate "showboating" when unloading and showing clear but I'd go as far as requiring the competitor to find and show the RO his live round after its been removed from the chamber.

Those that cut the grass at the club level don't appreciate it when they hit a live round with the lawnmower ! I know I never liked it much...