Jamie McG Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 Today at the range I was watching a friend eject and catch his last round. I have warned many other shooters in the past. For a reason I am not sure of I did the same, but with a more different result the caseing hit the ejector and went off. I was lucky that I only recieved minor preferation to my chest causeing some superficial bleeding and three holes in my new shirt. A good friend was to my right 2 to 3 feet away picking up brass and got a piece of the brass lodged in the hard plastic surrounding his ear protection. I'm glad he had them on, if he only had ear plugs that piece would of lodged in his skin instead. That was the first and last time that I will ever do that again, and hope in posting this that those who practice this way of unloading will stop and think about what might happen. take care Jamie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfield Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 Hi Jamie, Good to hear no more harm was done. This kind of thing is heard so often that it surprises me that so many people still do this, I see it all the time when I'm RO-ing. Maybe it's time to think about forbidding this ? It really doesn't help in any way shooting a better stage, at best you don't have to bend down to pick up the ejected round, and worst case you injure yourself, or worse, somebody else ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooter Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 You know it doesn't hurt the bullet if it hits the ground. Some people are obsessed with catching the bullet. At my last IDPA match, we had one guy try to catch his bullet before it hit the ground. In the process he swept himself, the SO, and the assistant SO. The SO was not too happy about that. The best way is to turn the gun 90 degrees and eject the round into the ground. If something should go wrong, majority of the shrapnel will be towards the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie j Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 After seeing it happen i'm a reformed Round fliper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 Today at the range I was watching a friend eject and catch his last round. I have warned many other shooters in the past. For a reason I am not sure of I did the same, but with a more different result the caseing hit the ejector and went off. I was lucky that I only recieved minor preferation to my chest causeing some superficial bleeding and three holes in my new shirt. A good friend was to my right 2 to 3 feet away picking up brass and got a piece of the brass lodged in the hard plastic surrounding his ear protection. I'm glad he had them on, if he only had ear plugs that piece would of lodged in his skin instead. That was the first and last time that I will ever do that again, and hope in posting this that those who practice this way of unloading will stop and think about what might happen. take care Jamie Buddy, I am SO glad you're OK. And people wonder why I don't want that done near me. As an RO, who has to be standing there when somebody does this, I find it more than a bit inconsiderate. If they want to do it at home, fine. Chaulk it up to Darwinism-in-action. I just wish we had a rule forbidding this on the range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 After seeing it happen i'm a reformed Round fliper. Glad to hear it, Ronnie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 Since it does not violate any of the current rules, I tolerate it (but do NOT like it). One thing you will notice if you do this on a stage I am running.... if you don't catch the round, I can guarentee you that I will not catch it either..... I know that probably seems obvious, but I have had competitor's look at me and say "hey, you didn't catch my round".... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TriggerT Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 I have heard of this happening, but I have never seen a round go off from it being jacked out of a gun. Would this be more common in certain calibers? My thought is that on say a 38 Super, the ejector is closer to the primmer than it would be on a .45. I do this a regualtr basis, and haven't given it alot of thought, and to be honest, I have NEVER had anyone say a single word to me about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidwiz Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 It happens all the freakin' time and it drives me nuts when I'm RO'ing. Personally, I think that people do it to just "look cool." As you pointed out, it can lead to bad things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfield Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 Would this be more common in certain calibers? I thought .40 S&W is more prone to this kind of stuff, or was it just them blowing up because of chambers not fully supporting the cartridge ? I can't remember exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TriggerT Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 It happens all the freakin' time and it drives me nuts when I'm RO'ing. Wow. I have been shooting USPSA for almost 5 years now, and I have never seen this happen, or heard of it happening at any match I have attended.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted July 18, 2004 Share Posted July 18, 2004 The blowing up or the flipping? Most flippers are old-time shooters. At one point it was Doug K's signature. So much that on the old pre-ban IPSC list there was a thread 'Koenig Klear, safe or not?". I see very little of it from newer shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted July 18, 2004 Share Posted July 18, 2004 The match organisers at the IPSC World Shoot in the Philippines banned this activity because of the squatters camped out above the berms. I have seen people do this at local matches and on occasion the gun momentarily points above the berm. Unsafe muzzle angle in my opinion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TriggerT Posted July 18, 2004 Share Posted July 18, 2004 I have seen people rack the slide hard enough to eject the unspent round, and then catch it. I have not seen one go off because of this practice. Also, as I have RO'd for the past 4 or 5 years, I have never seen a shooter who clears his gun in this manner point the muzzle in an unsafe dirrection. Again, I have heard about ejector detonations but never from someone who has had it happen to them, until now that is. I plan on asking around at tomorrows match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted July 18, 2004 Share Posted July 18, 2004 I have seen people rack the slide hard enough to eject the unspent round, and then catch it. I have not seen one go off because of this practice. Also, as I have RO'd for the past 4 or 5 years, I have never seen a shooter who clears his gun in this manner point the muzzle in an unsafe dirrection. Again, I have heard about ejector detonations but never from someone who has had it happen to them, until now that is. I plan on asking around at tomorrows match. TriggerT, I wish I could say this is the first local instance of a detonation during the infamous "Flip", but that would not be true. As an example we had one shooter who cupped his hand over the top of the slide, and (apparently) rather forcefully racked the slide in an attempt to have the round fall into his hand. Many folks do this same procedure, although very slowly so as to not light off a round against the ejector. But not this time. He not only had the round go off "in his hand", chewing up his fingers, but got DQ'd as a result. ***I don't remember the specifics of what "charge" was used for the DQ (Unsafe Gun Handling or what), but if asked, I would support that call. Truth is, I really don't care if that is how folks choose to clear their guns, as long as I'm not around when they do it. But as an RO, I don't really have the choice of not being around when it happens. In fact, I'm sort of duty bound to be looking directly at the ejection port, aren't I? So if one goes off, I'm right in the middle of this foolishness. I'm not one to embrace a bunch of seemingly pointless new rules, especially just for the sake of supposedly saving people from themselves. But when it gets to the point of ME being placed in harm's way for someone's ill-considered attempt to look cool, I sincerely wish this particular practice would be outlawed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schmitz Posted July 18, 2004 Share Posted July 18, 2004 As an example we had one shooter who cupped his hand over the top of the slide, and (apparently) rather forcefully racked the slide in an attempt to have the round fall into his hand. Many folks do this same procedure, although very slowly so as to not light off a round against the ejector. But not this time. He not only had the round go off "in his hand", chewing up his fingers, but got DQ'd as a result. I used this unloading-technique in .40 Standard as well. But after reading about some consequences several months ago on this forum I abandoned this procedure. Garfield, Sometimes you see the RO catching the round for you. Henny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted July 18, 2004 Share Posted July 18, 2004 Hi guys, I don't think there's any place in IPSC for "ballistic juggling" or "sleight of hand". If you really want to impress me, win the Stage or the Match. If I want to see tricks, David Blane and David Copperfield put on a much better show without using live rounds of ammo. BTW, although not specifically lised as unsafe gun handling, ammo "flipping" could be so declared, because Section 10.5 only lists "examples", but we may need to consider adding a line in respect of this matter. And people wonder why we keep adding new rules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfield Posted July 18, 2004 Share Posted July 18, 2004 Hi, I personally would prefer adding this as a specific example. Although I have never been around such an accident, I am now convinced that this habit really is dangerous. However I fear that the people around me that are doing this will not accept it easily if *I* start telling them that they shouldn't do it, or even are not allowed to do it. A specific example added to the rules would help very much. I am not easily scared, but as this issue keeps coming back, I must admit that I now really am worried about safety, especially since I RO more than I shoot . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted July 18, 2004 Share Posted July 18, 2004 I personally have ejected a round onto the gruond and had it go off at my feet. If it happened once, it can happen again. If letting the round fall is unsafe and catching the round is unsafe, now what do we do? Done properly, flipping the round is NOT unsafe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfield Posted July 18, 2004 Share Posted July 18, 2004 OMG Jake, now things are getting really complicated here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Beverley Posted July 18, 2004 Share Posted July 18, 2004 In the early days in the UK nearly everyone would cup their hand over the ejection port to catch the round. On my basic course that was THE technique that I was taught had to be used. I wasn't aware of any problems with .45 or 9mm but we started to receive reports of the problem with .38 super and techniques were modified. I know of 3 or 4 specific incidents where the round went off resulting in shrapnel being embedded in the hand which was cupped over the port. It is clear that this has now become an unacceptable practice and I agree with Vince and others that we can't leave it to chance. I have no hesitation in supporting any new rule that protects shooters from a very real risk of injury. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TriggerT Posted July 18, 2004 Share Posted July 18, 2004 If this is such a common problem, wouldn't there be some type of liability issue for the gun makers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmittyFL Posted July 18, 2004 Share Posted July 18, 2004 Trigger and Jake, I used to agree with you. I didn't use the technique but didn't have a problem with it either. http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...lged+live+round Then I was RO'ing when this happened. It wasn't a flip, but the same type thing. I guess it's one of those deals where you don't think it will ever happen to you. But once you see it, you won't do it any longer. It just doesn't gain you anything, only risks your and the RO's safety. Just something to think about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted July 18, 2004 Share Posted July 18, 2004 As an example we had one shooter who cupped his hand over the top of the slide, and (apparently) rather forcefully racked the slide in an attempt to have the round fall into his hand. Many folks do this same procedure, although very slowly so as to not light off a round against the ejector. But not this time. He not only had the round go off "in his hand", chewing up his fingers, but got DQ'd as a result. Cupping your hand over the port is a really bad plan. It seems to me that I heard of someone around here that nearly lost a finger or two when he inadvertantly lit off a 40 with his fingers wrapped over the port. ***I don't remember the specifics of what "charge" was used for the DQ (Unsafe Gun Handling or what), but if asked, I would support that call. UGH and most likely US 10.3.2.1 Any discharge/detonation prior to commencement or while loading, reloading, unloading or during remedial action in the case of a malfunction. Truth is, I really don't care if that is how folks choose to clear their guns, as long as I'm not around when they do it. But as an RO, I don't really have the choice of not being around when it happens. In fact, I'm sort of duty bound to be looking directly at the ejection port, aren't I? So if one goes off, I'm right in the middle of this foolishness. And I could not agree more!! I'm not one to embrace a bunch of seemingly pointless new rules, especially just for the sake of supposedly saving people from themselves. But when it gets to the point of ME being placed in harm's way for someone's ill-considered attempt to look cool, I sincerely wish this particular practice would be outlawed. Actually, I think the new rules may even encourage this behavior (these are the new US rules that are not in effect yet). Why would I say that? It is no longer a match DQ if you light one off in this fashion (see 10.4.3.1 which gives an exception during unloading)... Hopefully, no one now STARTS doing this because they don't have to worry about the DQ. I can only hope they choose not to do it because they value all their body parts. I am not easily scared, but as this issue keeps coming back, I must admit that I now really am worried about safety, especially since I RO more than I shoot. I am completely with you on that! With the US Pistol Nationals coming up, we expect 600 competitors. Since I have two RO's, that means I will most likely clear 200 shooters. If a shooter chooses to flip a round on each of the stages, he will have a total of 24 opportunities for something to go wrong. However, if everyone did this on my stage, then I would personally have 200 opportunities for something to go wrong! I just don't like the odds, and since this really un-necessary, why take the chance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted July 18, 2004 Share Posted July 18, 2004 Done properly, flipping the round is NOT unsafe. The trouble is, my dear young Italian Stallion, we don't know if it's done properly until, well, it's been done, but by then it's too late to do anything about it if the doo-doo hits the fan (or the primer hits the ejector). Remember when we talk about safety in IPSC, we're talking prevention not cure. Since the practice doesn't help in any way but it might cause a detonation, don't you think we'd be wise to ban the practice? As you know, breaking 90 degrees is not necessarily, in and of itself, unsafe but we have to draw a line somewhere because not all competitors (or their guns or ammo) are equal. Now behave yourself or your Uncle Vinny will have to ground you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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