Kingman Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 I have seen alot of NO new rules in this post. Why everytime anyone has a little issue, regardless of reason do we want to put a new rule into place. Its hard enough to remember half of them as it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 BDH, I was at MRP when a shooter had one of these issue. I saw it happen. It was NOT a catch and flip. I can't tell you who it was, but I recall it being a left-handed Para shooter. He was "clearing" the gun with his right hand over the ejection port...trying to catch the round. He likely keep it from ejecting properly...thus, jamming it into the ejector. Boom. Flex, I KNOW who it was... and talked to him about it (but, I did not witness it). Also, knowing the shooter, I can not imagine that he was showboating. That said.... BOOM. Sooooo, why encourage it... that is my quesiton? BDH, I don't know if we are talking about the same shooter (I don't recall you being at that match). The guy I watched...he wasn't doing any flip and catch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck D Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Sorry Kingman...I'm a "politician" at heart. If it's a "safety" issue...it's my opinion that the act should be regulated. Besides...Vince asked didn't he? Far be it from me to refuse a request from the Hong Kong kid ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zorba Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 WHAT IF....... DURING A COF COMPETITOR DECIDES TO RACK HIS BLASTER FOR ANY NUMBER OF REASONS,EG MAKE SURE THERE IS A ROUND IN THE CHAMBER AFTER A RELOAD OR HAMMER FOLLOWED TO HALF COCK. WHAT NOW IF DURING THAT PROCESS THE EJECTED ROUNG GOES BANG? GUESS WHAT , THE RO IS RIGHT THERE, WE NEED A NEW RULE HERE 100.20 RO MUST FOLLOW AT A SAFE DISTANCE 5M. I AM BEING BAD NOW SORRY. DO WE NOW EXPECT THE COMPETITOR TO DO THIS ACTION CAUTIOUSLY? DONT THINK SO. IF THIS THING CAN HAPPEN JUST BY EJECTING A ROUND CAUTIOUSLY THEN WE HAVE NO PLACE REGULATING THE WAY THE COMPETITOR FEELS SAFE DOING IT.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Sorry for jumping on the bandwagon so late guys, but I have a question. Why should be "flipping" the last round for unloading an unsafe procedure, and the classic "tap-rack-bang" IPSC jam-clearing procedure should not? I mean: if racking the slide (more or less violently) to eject a live round a questionable (or potentially unsafe) habit while unloading, then it should be the same for clearing a jam by furiously racking the slide on a live round to resume the COF. Shouldn't it? I don't want to say "I like this, I don't like that", I just want to learn why and how the two procedures could be different. BTW, until a year ago I used to "flip" the last round, then I abandoned it for two reasons: I wasn't aways able to catch the round in air (and this was dragging my attention away from the gun muzzle for a couple of seconds, which I didn't like at all), and in "flipping" the round, sometimes I was going dangerously near the 45° max vertical muzzle angle allowed here in Italy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Hi guys,I'm all ears, but give me more guidance here. It seems most commentators in this thread want to discourage and/or to stop the practice because there's no benefit but inherent risks, but some of you have different ideas on how to deal with it. The choices as I see it are: 1. A tough new rule (e.g. "Thou shalt not .......... match DQ"); 2. A kinder, gentler rule (e.g. "Thou should not ........ but no penalty"); 3. A "Best Practice" (e.g. Nothing in the rulebook, but we spread the word ........ how?). 4. Too hard - do nothing. 5. Is there a 5th option? Vince, I'd have to go with door number "3". A best practice statement, published in Front Sight, mentioned at all major matches, etc. I think raising awareness will help eliminate some detonations, once people understand the root cause. I don't think that ejecting a live round forcefully is, in and of itself, a safety problem--as Skywalker points out, it's done quite a bit in jam clearing, or when a misfire occurs, AND it's being done under the clock, so you know there is some force being applied. What I'd like to see is someone who's knowledgeable in gun mechanics give a good explanation about how it happens, and maybe suggest some ways to set guns up, especially .40's, to reduce the chances of it happening. Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Why should be "flipping" the last round for unloading an unsafe procedure, and the classic "tap-rack-bang" IPSC jam-clearing procedure should not?I mean: if racking the slide (more or less violently) to eject a live round a questionable (or potentially unsafe) habit while unloading, then it should be the same for clearing a jam by furiously racking the slide on a live round to resume the COF. Shouldn't it? You'd think so, wouldn't you.... I was going dangerously near the 45° max vertical muzzle angle allowed here in Italy. I'd be DQ'd every match after my first reload... that'd suck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 From my personal observations as an RO, I will state the foolowing: I have seen competitors so wrapped up in Showboating the ULSC that they don't realize that they have missed an obvious steel staring them right in the face. I ahve seen these showboaters come periously close to sweeping the round-cathing hand when the round goes forward. I want to SEE the CHAMBER when they are done and a lot of these showboaters think that the flying round is sufficent evidence of an empty chamber. I would still opt for #3, education. There are already too many rules, my opinion. Rules such as this are difficult to enforce. There are already rules under which we can assess a penalty, Unsafe gunhandling comes to mind. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Linch Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 I hate this practice! So the next question is this.... If I'm the RO and warn the guy not to do it before the stage and he does it anyway, what recourse is there? I try not too RO because it's so prevelant at my club. I've had 2 ejector fires because I unloaded to forcefully, but not during competition. Since then I am very careful to sloooowly rack the slide and turn the ejection port down toward the ground. Disregard! I responded to the first page, will go read all 4 now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFD Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 I'm going to have to start paying attention to how I eject that last round. I know at the state match I was playing with 230 JHPs that were a hair too long to eject smoothly. In that case I was very slowly pulling the slide back and hoping the round wouldn't require too much jiggling to come out. I had the same couple of ROs since this was the staff shoot, so they came to expect a less than smooth unload procedure. Nothing was mentioned. Around here the RO seems to be expected to catch the ejected round. The shooters who catch it themselves don't appear to be showboating, but I'll have to pay closer attention at the next match. When I RO, the round IS going to hit the ground. I'm trying to make sure the gun is empty, not play catch with the shooter. A lot of times the RO will obviously be in position to catch the round I'm about to eject, so I try to just let it fall out of the ejection port into their hand. If not, the thing can hit the ground or whatever it wants to do. Once I eject it, it's history. I don't know how a rule could be worded to prevent any possibility of detonation, yet still allow the round to be removed from the chamber. I vote for no rule, but maybe a "heads up" in Front Sight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfield Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Front Sight only reaches so many people ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPatterson Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 This has gotten very lengthy and some people may not read it but I want to present my experiences. Twice now at local matches I have had "flippers" not catch the round and knock it back in my face. Another time "flipper" didn't bother with the catch and the round bounced off my hand with the timer being turned for the score keeper to see. It is now my policy whenever possible to get behind the shooters strong side shoulder so I don't get hit and it is easier to see if the chamber is empty. I am probably anal and I can get hit with the round but I still want to see an empty chamber before I declare GIC, HDH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 before I declare GIC, HDH. Or ...perhaps...IGIC...HDH... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilTerry Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 As I said in my comments to Troy - already been covered in Front Sight Nov/Dec 1998 Vol 15, No 6 Page 4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 I'm a flipper and I'm really trying to stop. Oddly enough, I don't do it with my Limited gun as it's got a thumb shield on it, but my Open gun, when I removed the thumb shield and put the racker back on, it's flared up again. At the last Golden Gate, I had the round ignite upon unloading (not due to the flip) as the round fell off the extractor and ignited on the ejector. Powder in my face and brass shards in my trigger finger (that was below the slide and not on the trigger). I was fine and immediately checked if the RO was alright. He was cool. Got out my official IPSC shooter pocket knife, carved the crap out of my hand and signed my sheet for a DQ. No problem, it's the right call. Didn't make me feel any better since my Dad came down to watch me shoot. I've made a concerted effort to stop, just a matter of execution now. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TriggerT Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Rich, So did you try to flip the round out or not? Would the round have gone off reguardless of trying to catch it or not? Just curious as to if it would have happened either way. Also, what caliber? Thanks for sharing your experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 TriggerT, In retrospect, I don't think I was, as I still had a grip of the slide when it went off. It was a .40 loaded to 1.200". The night before when I was cleaning the pistol, I noticed that the extractor tension was a little low. However, since the gun was running flawlessly, I didn't want to tweak anything. Kind of funny how that works, eh? When I unloaded, I had the gun pitched at around 60-65 degrees counterclockwise, in theory inducing the round falling off. Oh well. It happens. Just wished it wouldn't have happened then. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schmitz Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 It's so easy, take the outer end of the slide between thumb and indexfinger, pull back the slide gently, ejecting the live round toward the ground Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidwiz Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Doesn't work with some mounts or sights (like the 1st Gen Holosight) - have to grab the slide from the rear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TriggerT Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Schmitz, I personally have ejected a round onto the gruond and had it go off at my feet. Hmmm.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew_Mink Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 I'm a flipper and I'm really trying to stop. Oddly enough, I don't do it with my Limited gun as it's got a thumb shield on it, but my Open gun, when I removed the thumb shield and put the racker back on, it's flared up again.At the last Golden Gate, I had the round ignite upon unloading (not due to the flip) as the round fell off the extractor and ignited on the ejector. Powder in my face and brass shards in my trigger finger (that was below the slide and not on the trigger). I was fine and immediately checked if the RO was alright. He was cool. Got out my official IPSC shooter pocket knife, carved the crap out of my hand and signed my sheet for a DQ. No problem, it's the right call. Didn't make me feel any better since my Dad came down to watch me shoot. I've made a concerted effort to stop, just a matter of execution now. Rich I thought if the round went off and the bullet did not go down the barrel, that wasn't a match DQ? Plus, I've personally seen 3 flippers ignite rounds by racking enthusiatically. I hate the practice and stand clear when I know a flipper is on the line unloading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.40AET Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 So if you rack it too hard, it may go bang. If you let it roll out gently and hit the ground, it may go bang. What is the safe alternative?? The lesser of 2 evils, I would rather take my chances dropping it on the ground. Cleats and boots should fair better than bare hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 That's what friends suggested that I argue (too to argue gun malfunction), but at that point, I was a little shaken up and my trigger finger needed some bandaging beyond the brown tape that I was using. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Matt/Rich, BDH quotes the appropriate USPSA rule on page 2 of this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Hi Kyle, Oh, there was no way I was going to argue it. First, I was most concerned about the RO (I saw that the bullet went down range, so I knew spectators were okay). Second, after acknowledging he was alright, I wanted to get the gun holstered. Third, I wanted to perform surgery and 'bandage' the hand. Fourth, get my gun and belt off, pack up and head home. Psychologically I was done. Thanks for the info though. I'll remember that in the future. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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