rtr Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 So what is the safest way to eject a live round? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidwiz Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 What I try to do, is with my .40, turn the gun sideways (gansta style) so the ejection port is facing the ground, then slowly retract the slide to eject the live round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 Front Sight only reaches so many people ... Sorry, didn't mean to say only Front Sight--my intent was to spread the word by all means... Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 Thoughts in Random order: Jake, when the round detonated on hitting the ground, what if anything got hurt? Were you bleeding, do you think you could have been bleeding, anyone else have firsthand knowledge of rounds going off when hitting the ground? If injuries from rounds are minor flesh wounds --- would it make more sense to let the round hit the ground --- i.e. less damage to less complicated body system? (Thinking along the lines that a shrapnel scratch across the cornea could leave you blind, while the same scratch on an arm or leg might be just a minor annoyance.) R.O.'s should stay clear of the competitor --- or at least keep their face/hands away from the gun --- during unloading; once the round is safely out of the gun, you can take all the time you need to inspect the chamber and mag well. Assuming we decide that it's better (from a severity of injury standpoint) to have the ejected round hit the ground or table or counter in front of the shooter, then we might consider whether wording such a rule would be beneficial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Linch Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 Why does it go bang during UASC and not RTB? A. During UASC there is no magazine in the gun to support the round. Since extractors are made to hold empty cases they need the bullet in the mag under it to help hold the loaded round being ejected. During "rap-tap-bang" this is the case, during "unload and show clear" the chance of the round slipping off the extractor goes up greatly. By tilting the gun so the ejection port is facing up "for catching the flip" you increase the chance of the round slipping off and hitting the ejector even more. What is the safest way to UASC? A. Roll the gun over so the ejection port is facing down to the ground, slowly bring slide to rear and lock by pushing the slide release up. Watch for round to hit ground, shake if needed. As for a rule, I think that "unsafe gun handling" covers it already, and should only be used if the shooter refuses to knock it off when the RO asks. Both of my incidents happened with Federal Hydroshock 230gr .45cal I was unloading the gun at home the first time and held it upright using an overhand grip to rack the slide, I racked it hard just like I would for a RTB.... BOOM! - Cuts to arm. The second time was on a range while changing from defensive ammo to training ammo, same procedure - BOOM! Cuts to top of shooting hand. I had never heard of this happening before it did to me, but since have learned that it happens way too often because people are uninformed of the danger or too busy looking cool to care. The "it won't happen to me attitude." Yes my gun does have a properly tuned Wilson extended ejector, which does add to the problem more than a normal ejector, but the fast slide racking without the support of a mag in the well is the main reason for these accidents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 Thank you, Jim. Very informative; an excellent post. Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 Jim, I wholeheartedly echo Troy's "thank you for an excellent post" comment, and I also extend to you a warm welcome to the BE Forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 Why does it go bang during UASC and not RTB?A. During UASC there is no magazine in the gun to support the round. Since extractors are made to hold empty cases they need the bullet in the mag under it to help hold the loaded round being ejected. During "rap-tap-bang" this is the case, during "unload and show clear" the chance of the round slipping off the extractor goes up greatly. By tilting the gun so the ejection port is facing up "for catching the flip" you increase the chance of the round slipping off and hitting the ejector even more. Jim, I appreciate your explaination, but I still need to understand something. In the quoted scenario, a live round goes bang because it contacts the ejector during unloading due to a loose extractor that allowed the (unsupported) round to slip below the extractor hook. But, shouldn't the ejector be placed in such a way that its tip is off-center from cartridge rim center? In other words, even if the round slips past the extractor hook, shouldn't the ejector come in contact with the external part of the brass rim, and not with the primer, due to breechface/ejector design? Guess I'll need to check dimensions this evening at home, but I do believe that a SP primer is some 4mm in diameter, and the ejector channel is at least some 4mm off-center, thus there should be a 2mm clearance between primer edge and ejector tip. Does the round slip horizontally too, besides than vertically, while unsupported by the mag? Doesn't the curved shoulder of the breechface prevent this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Linch Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 Does the round slip horizontally too, besides than vertically, while unsupported by the mag? Bingo! Here are a few pics to illustrate. The problem is almost nonexistant with a standard ejector from what I have read. Also the exteractor is not loose on my gun and can hold a live round through cycle if done slowly. Image hosted @ ConcealedCarry.info Image hosted @ ConcealedCarry.info You can see the extended ejector in the pic and why they are the biggest trouble maker in the scenario. Thanks for the welcome guys. I use to post here as day5creations but have been away far too long. Siglady reminded me of this excellent forum from another I'm active on http://oregonconcealedcarry.com PS. Something I didn't mention was that on my first BOOM I actually racked the slide and felt it hang a bit but after letting it go forward just a hair I brought it back to light off the round. It was instinctive and faster than I could think about it. On the second BOOM I performed a perfect overhand clearing drill type rack with my hand hitting my chest as it was ripped off the gun slide, like it should have. Still the round managed to get into the position of the image above as the light off that followed proves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 Jim, you are da man! What a couple of great pics! Very illustrative. Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Linch Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 Jim, you are da man! What a couple of great pics! Very illustrative. Troy Thanks Troy, the more I can convince that this is a bad habit the better in my book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 So what is the safest way to eject a live round? Well, here is one way. Frankly, I think it's overkill, but you asked (Note that I hereby declare, from the very outset, a possible conflict of interest, because I'm the Hong Kong agent for the manufacturer, however I will not accept orders from any party other than from persons actually residing in Hong Kong.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TriggerT Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 Yeh Vince, I think we could all agree that is overkill. Jim, thanks for the GREAT pics. Helps us all see more clearly how this can and does happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfield Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 Vince, Prevents possible detonation of cartridges during ejection Not wanting to hijack this thread, but out of sheer curiosity: how is that thing supposed to prevent detonation ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TriggerT Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 Vince,Prevents possible detonation of cartridges during ejection Not wanting to hijack this thread, but out of sheer curiosity: how is that thing supposed to prevent detonation ? I was just thinking the same thing. If it is going to go off, all that thing might do is help contain some of the fragments. Or add to the fragments if it blows appart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Linch Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 Probably the safest way would be to wear one of these while unloading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingman Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 Priceless, But you know one thing I noticed. You violated the new uspsa rule. Your hand is still unprotected. 10.123.4.8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 Not wanting to hijack this thread, but out of sheer curiosity: how is that thing supposed to prevent detonation ? OK, this is a trade secret: the blue material is actually a derivative of Viagra called "Sgelyriah" (pronounced "ESS-JELLY-RE-AH", which makes the round, um, go limp. (Hey, I just sell them, I don't write the guff that comes with them) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schmitz Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 Schmitz, I personally have ejected a round onto the gruond and had it go off at my feet. Hmmm.... Trigger T, I always wear Airforce leather boots Henny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric nielsen Posted July 26, 2004 Share Posted July 26, 2004 Good habit or bad habit, it often turns out looking uglier at a match than it looks at a practice session. My two cents... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfield Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 So, All jokes aside, where are we on this matter ? It is something I would like to see some "ruling" on. If impossible to make a hard rule for this, maybe at least a "strong advice" for everyone, so that we as RO's have some backing if we ask shooters to refrain from this habit ? Something like an "IROA best practise" ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Buff Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 Having read the whole thread, IMHO, the safest way seems to be to tilt the gun 90 deg CW, retract the slide and keep it back (locked???) in one smooth move. The round should hit the ground, statistically speaking, bullet first (more weight) and hence be safe (enough???). Slide should only be released upon RO command SFHD&H. If the round is loaded longer than usual it should drop through the grip. I don't want to see a rule on this, since it WILL complicate matters. I like the education approach and I really dislike the "eject and play catch" moves. Clean the round after pick-up, but let it kiss the ground! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Linch Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 I like the education approach... Nice summary Dead Bluff. The problem is that the same personality type that does this (sorry for the generalization) is the one that will turn to you and say "there's no rule against it." That SUCKS if you are the RO that has to be near the potential kaboom. It IS a safety issue and should be treated the same way "sweeping" someone would, IF they intentionally or unintentionally perform the action after having been warned by the RO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 How about a list of items that can/could/should be considered as Unsafegunhandling? THat way we really don't need a rule, just an adended list of actions? Sweeping Finger while reloading Flipping rounds Dropping gun during a COF AD over a berm or into the ground within 3 feet. AD while reloading. Other situations that are currently covered or that we think should be. Jim Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TriggerT Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 Jim, You would have to make that "Flipping rounds after the Unload and show clear comand." Otherwise, when I rack the slide to clear a round that didn't go off, or did a "Tap, Rack, Bang" I could be in trouble. Part of the problem is that we are talking about something that would be time specifice as a rule. ALL of the other unsafe gun handling items apply both while you are in the process of shooting, and after the UASC comand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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